I believe that the male Native American heads on the 1908 $2-1/2 and $5 and the 1913 Five Cents are "an impression emblematic of Liberty." The coins do have the word "LIBERTY" on them.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I believe that the male Native American heads on the 1908 $2-1/2 and $5 and the 1913 Five Cents are "an impression emblematic of Liberty." The coins do have the word "LIBERTY" on them.
You could make the same argument concerning Lincoln, Jefferson, FDR, Franklin, and Kennedy.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
So to recap, Mercury dime is a female Liberty, but some opine that there are plenty of male Liberties on coins, and even a few androgynous (or "non-cis normative" if one prefers) representatations.
Odds on, in the future there will be more than the Barber series where we're not quite sure..
Heaven help us when we "get in trouble" for asking respectfully asking.. we were just curious!
I believe that the male Native American heads on the 1908 $2-1/2 and $5 and the 1913 Five Cents are "an impression emblematic of Liberty." The coins do have the word "LIBERTY" on them.
I disagree.
The word Liberty appears above and separate from the portraits. If the portrait represented Liberty then the word would either not be there, or would be on her headband.
I believe that the male Native American heads on the 1908 $2-1/2 and $5 and the 1913 Five Cents are "an impression emblematic of Liberty." The coins do have the word "LIBERTY" on them.
I disagree.
The word Liberty appears above and separate from the portraits. If the portrait represented Liberty then the word would either not be there, or would be on her headband.
So the draped bust lady ain't Liberty? She ain't Liberty on the Saint or the WLH?
I believe that the male Native American heads on the 1908 $2-1/2 and $5 and the 1913 Five Cents are "an impression emblematic of Liberty." The coins do have the word "LIBERTY" on them.
I disagree.
The word Liberty appears above and separate from the portraits. If the portrait represented Liberty then the word would either not be there, or would be on her headband.
So the draped bust lady ain't Liberty? She ain't Liberty on the Saint or the WLH?
Yes they are. They got both the portrait and the word.
As established, Liberty is a female, so an Indian chief can't be her.
I believe that the male Native American heads on the 1908 $2-1/2 and $5 and the 1913 Five Cents are "an impression emblematic of Liberty." The coins do have the word "LIBERTY" on them.
I disagree.
The word Liberty appears above and separate from the portraits. If the portrait represented Liberty then the word would either not be there, or would be on her headband.
So the draped bust lady ain't Liberty? She ain't Liberty on the Saint or the WLH?
Yes they are. They got both the portrait and the word.
As established, Liberty is a female, so an Indian chief can't be her.
Well, it's a free country; you can disagree with the Coinage Act and the Numismatist of the Year all you want to on this subject 😂
@BLUEJAYWAY said:
Curious what "Dimemans" input would of been.
Or Roger Burdette's
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I believe that the male Native American heads on the 1908 $2-1/2 and $5 and the 1913 Five Cents are "an impression emblematic of Liberty." The coins do have the word "LIBERTY" on them.
I disagree.
The word Liberty appears above and separate from the portraits. If the portrait represented Liberty then the word would either not be there, or would be on her headband.
So the draped bust lady ain't Liberty? She ain't Liberty on the Saint or the WLH?
Yes they are. They got both the portrait and the word.
As established, Liberty is a female, so an Indian chief can't be her.
Established where?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I believe that the male Native American heads on the 1908 $2-1/2 and $5 and the 1913 Five Cents are "an impression emblematic of Liberty." The coins do have the word "LIBERTY" on them.
I disagree.
The word Liberty appears above and separate from the portraits. If the portrait represented Liberty then the word would either not be there, or would be on her headband.
So the draped bust lady ain't Liberty? She ain't Liberty on the Saint or the WLH?
Yes they are. They got both the portrait and the word.
As established, Liberty is a female, so an Indian chief can't be her.
Established where?
Here, and historical precedent.
Certain allegorical figures are traditionally male and some are female.
The many depictions of "Liberty" that I have seen (thank you, numismatics) have always been female, but feel free to provide some examples of male versions if any are known to exist (I am not interested in argumentative hypotheticals ).
I any case, an obviously male Indian Chief is an Indian Chief, not an allegorical depiction of Liberty.
Here are some definitions culled from the Interweb:
"Throughout history, liberty has been depicted as a woman. The Roman Republic built a temple to Libertas, the Goddess of Liberty, on Aventine Hill, and her face appeared on the denarius silver coin -- according to the Bible, the denarius was a day's pay for a laborer."
and
"The concept of liberty has frequently been represented by personifications, often loosely shown as a female classical goddess.[1] Examples include Marianne, the national personification of the French Republic and its values of Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité, the female Liberty portrayed on United States coins for well over a century, and many others. These descend from images on ancient Roman coins of the Roman goddess Libertas and from various developments from the Renaissance onwards. The Dutch Maiden was among the first, re-introducing the cap of liberty on a liberty pole featured in many types of image, though not using the Phrygian cap style that became conventional. The 1886 Statue of Liberty (Liberty Enlightening the World) by Frédéric Auguste Bartholdi is a well-known example in art, a gift from France to the United States."
@JBK said:
Also, "Liberty" must appear on our coins, either as an allegorical representation or as a word.
That is a great point, the legislation dictates a representation of Liberty. Traditionally the allegorical Liberty is depicted as a woman. It does not say that "Liberty must be represented as a female." I think there is room for interpretation in historical designs but a clear answer is impossible. The engravers go through an artistic process which always leave room for interpretation.
Comments
U.S. Mint Act of 1792. See Section 10.
https://www.usmint.gov/learn/history/historical-documents/coinage-act-of-april-2-1792
I believe that the male Native American heads on the 1908 $2-1/2 and $5 and the 1913 Five Cents are "an impression emblematic of Liberty." The coins do have the word "LIBERTY" on them.
You could make the same argument concerning Lincoln, Jefferson, FDR, Franklin, and Kennedy.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Fun and informative thread after all 👍
So to recap, Mercury dime is a female Liberty, but some opine that there are plenty of male Liberties on coins, and even a few androgynous (or "non-cis normative" if one prefers) representatations.
Odds on, in the future there will be more than the Barber series where we're not quite sure..
Heaven help us when we "get in trouble" for asking respectfully asking.. we were just curious!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Should we refer to the male Liberties as Libertos (Libertoes? Liberto’s?)
Who would possibly know? Not me.
I disagree.
The word Liberty appears above and separate from the portraits. If the portrait represented Liberty then the word would either not be there, or would be on her headband.
I don't know.
So the draped bust lady ain't Liberty? She ain't Liberty on the Saint or the WLH?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Yes they are. They got both the portrait and the word.
As established, Liberty is a female, so an Indian chief can't be her.
Matron head Liberty cent is a dude, I say!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Well, it's a free country; you can disagree with the Coinage Act and the Numismatist of the Year all you want to on this subject 😂
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Liberbros
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Curious what "Dimemans" input would of been.
Both.
Or Roger Burdette's
Established where?
Here, and historical precedent.
Certain allegorical figures are traditionally male and some are female.
The many depictions of "Liberty" that I have seen (thank you, numismatics) have always been female, but feel free to provide some examples of male versions if any are known to exist (I am not interested in argumentative hypotheticals
).
I any case, an obviously male Indian Chief is an Indian Chief, not an allegorical depiction of Liberty.
Here are some definitions culled from the Interweb:
"Throughout history, liberty has been depicted as a woman. The Roman Republic built a temple to Libertas, the Goddess of Liberty, on Aventine Hill, and her face appeared on the denarius silver coin -- according to the Bible, the denarius was a day's pay for a laborer."
and
"The concept of liberty has frequently been represented by personifications, often loosely shown as a female classical goddess.[1] Examples include Marianne, the national personification of the French Republic and its values of Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité, the female Liberty portrayed on United States coins for well over a century, and many others. These descend from images on ancient Roman coins of the Roman goddess Libertas and from various developments from the Renaissance onwards. The Dutch Maiden was among the first, re-introducing the cap of liberty on a liberty pole featured in many types of image, though not using the Phrygian cap style that became conventional. The 1886 Statue of Liberty (Liberty Enlightening the World) by Frédéric Auguste Bartholdi is a well-known example in art, a gift from France to the United States."
That is a great point, the legislation dictates a representation of Liberty. Traditionally the allegorical Liberty is depicted as a woman. It does not say that "Liberty must be represented as a female." I think there is room for interpretation in historical designs but a clear answer is impossible. The engravers go through an artistic process which always leave room for interpretation.