Is this a fake gold buffalo in a fake PCGS slab?
1madman
Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭✭✭
Something about this coin & slab just doesn’t look right. Not sure if it’s the thick black font on the label, or the strange strike on the coin itself. There’s a dent/damage above the date, which shouldn’t be there for a 70 graded coin. But maybe I’m mistaken. What do you think?
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The font looks a little bold and there's no QR code on the back. I believe it is of the generation where that would be found but I'll defer to others here who know the generations better.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
After comparing to other 2011 proofs, label is typical for the coin. See no issues there.
I've compared the coin to a number of 2011 proof pics and see no red flags. Just my opinion. If I wanted the coin and I thought the price was right I would buy it.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
The cert # in the description does not match the one in the photo. Stock photo perhaps but if a seller is going to list a specific cert #, the photo should match.
You are correct about the coin not looking right. My opinion is that it is counterfeit. The Buffalo looks poorly detailed, with a weak tail and midsection for one.
That's my main problem with the coin.
Slab guys: come have a look.
Pete
I don't care for that coin!
i've been playing with the pcgs barcode app and while the cert does pull up the correct coin/info, with no image, i can't get the barcode to scan (although i see the seller uploaded an image of it). it may be a bit too blurry but i've gotten several other slabs from the slab gen thread from lakesamman. fwiw.
nm. finally found one of the images to work for me.
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it may just be the way the coin is imaged that is a bit curious, i cannot fault the coin/holder/info at this point. someone more familiar may be able to say one way or the other.
it may just be the generational insert but the inking on this one is much thicker than others i am seeing. i will probably run this last thing down and let it go. @derryb - can you link to one that you used. not that i doubt your comparison, i'm doing this to brush up myself. tia
edited to add 3 other comps. i got rid of the cert #s and barcodes as they are from active listings from well-known sellers. fwiw - now my suspicions about the surfaces of the indian and buffalo being off seem more legitimate.
bold PR label font
bold PR label font
Can't find this label without the bold font. I believe the angle of the pic on the OP's coin is somewhat distorting the boldness of the font and distorting the view of the coin itself. Coin checks out under comparison with others. no indication of fake coin decreases odds of fake holder. The "rippled" fields on these proofs will give a different impression depending on the angle at which photographed. I've handled a lot of PCGS gold bufflaos and I would not hesitate to buy this one if I was looking to buy and I believed the price to be good. If I did have concerns I would request a pic of the coin head on.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
tyvm
this is going to be one where we will agree to disagree, which isn't often. after looking at several spots on the OP coin, the serifs aren't as sharp and several numbers/letters are wider/thicker and touch, whereas they don't on any other examples of this faded insert.
i will highlight and re-upload the image cert comp and it is a link to a larger version for anyone wanting to consult with us.
@1madman - i think this was a good find, at the very least so we can run it down and if it proves it to be, all the better and anyone finding the variation of the thickness will feel better but if not....
edited to add:
ok. i've done all i think i can do. the image is re-uploaded. i don't recall a counterfeit i've seen where the barcode scans unless it is a good insert in a bad holder but i've not scanned a lot of inserts either.
Also the camera focus is on the coin with an obvious low aperature setting that somewhat blurs the font on the label. I believe this is why the label looks over inked.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
Issues with the coin image are due to low resolution and pic quality.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
i do agree i've seen some crazy things come from various imaging angles/lighting etc.
because i know you have a good amount of experience and are a sharp guy i will hold to 95% something is awry but 5% not. i have to go with my experience and gut on this one but we've all seen we can be wrong from images and it would MORE than ruin my day if i found out it was a good item and the seller needed the money to get by in these desperate times, which is NO small part why i hesitate reporting things these days. stuff that is obvious will most likely get removed and the stuff that is tough, like this one, i'd rather let a bad one through than to harm a legitimate seller.
I see no red flags on the seller either. Price is not outstanding, feedback indicates seller is not a coin guy. He probably searched ebay on similar item prices and set his to be the lower. Probably looking for a quick sale not knowing gold will continue up in the short term.
Most of my lack of concern is due to paypal seller protection which, by the way, I understand ends at the end of the month for coins (or was it just bullion).
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
Maybe just bad pics / lighting but the coin doesnt look quite right to me. One example, in pic #2 the rim looks funky, metal out of place. Enough buffalos out there. I wouldnt bother with one I wasn't reasonably certain was authentic.
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Thanks for all the responses. I looked through some photos I have of some coins, and I actually found some of a 2011 buffalo to compare to this auction. The thing that jumps out at me is that the date on the obverse “2011” and on the reverse the lettering “$50 1oz. .9999 FINE GOLD” aren’t shiny proof on the auction coin. They are the dull matte finish to match the surroundings. Now either this is a variety coin the seller has, or is a fake. Also, notice the third feather on the Indian (how there is no detail to it at all), and look at the buffalo’s eyes & brow (how they look cartoonish).
I only mention this coin because I can’t say I’ve ever seen a fake gold buffalo without the word COPY stamped somewhere on it. This isn’t a good sign of what’s out there in the marketplace.
Not a coin I would put any money down on. Look at the difference in details on the buffalos front legs... the coin in question is all mushy and has hardly any lines. Similar situation in other areas. That, along with the questionable slab... well, like I said not one I will put money down on. IMO fake... but to each their own.
Even the Indian's eye looks funky.... and the date.... but again JMHO. Do your own due diligence.
I wouldn't touch that coin with a 10' pole although I am sure it will pass the Sigma. lol Regards.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
I don't like it
Good catch, OP. Too squishy and odd looking for me.
Might be the seller does or doesn’t realize he has a questionable Gold Buffalo and just wants to get rid of it.
“Republic of Gamers” he says! Enough said.
anyone here wanna take a gamble? seems to be a win-win if you receive the actual coin in the image. get a nice pr70 $50 buff for a decent price (as others mentomed) if it turns out good and have snad/ebay/paypal to back you if not.
if i had the money and patience to risk it, i'd do it in a heart-beat simply for our education. i've done it with other coins, just not for this much when i feel this uncertain.
Looks somewhat cartoonish on both sides. And from a 95% FB seller? No thank you.
i think it looks fake
A good rule is to stay away from Internet offerings when the seller posts bad photos or photos taken at odd angles. That is certainly the case here. I don’t like this piece.
So the question I now have is what role does PCGS play in removing this coin from the marketplace? I have never seen or heard PCGS’ policy for safeguarding collectors with fake slabs. I know that NGC has a security division who you can contact about issues concerning fake NGC slabs and they take strong action to investigate and remove auctions selling fake slabs. Who do you contact at PCGS?
Don’t look now, but the coin is available for sale again this morning:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2011-W-50American-Buffalo-One-Ounce-Gold-Proof-Coin-PCGS-PR70DCAM-1oz-999/164298662035?hash=item2640f6a093:g:REQAAOSw7RZfDObD
Where is PCGS at in order to get this coin removed from eBay and/or confiscated from the seller?
And.... looks like it sold. But odd that the buyers partial name does not show up on the page.
Only time I've ever seen a bidder/buyer's partial ID is on an auction. This was a fixed price / offer listing. They never show buyer information. At least I've never seen it listed. Would be nice if they did though. That would make it a lot easier to find shyster sellers creating fake + FB for themselves by "buying" an item multiple times. Seen this done by many sellers.
Hello all, I saw this coin when it was first listed . Thought it was a counterfeit basically right away! I found this forum because I was looking for information on the internet about counterfeit graded coin slabs! It took this long for me to get my membership here approved! I did report this counterfeit item to Ebay. It sold so fast who knows if they tried to do anything. Then it sold again! Most likely that first buyer realized in was a fake! Next to a real one this item screams fake! A picture is worth a thousand words! It is crazy that these fakes are out there so often!
Cyrano De Bergerac nose......
Nor do I. The hair detailing on the bison's shoulder, among other things, look suspicious.
So what gave it away?
I'm no good at Buffs.
Also, welcome
My Saint Set
Welcome to the forum!
Thanks for the welcome! To try to answer you question. Look at the photos above . Look at the braid on Indian, Real and fake are totally different! Look closely and you will see! Also the fake is not frosted the way real Buffaloes are.
Compare the nostril to the authentic one
Mr Gold I appreciate your effort to feel so strongly about this subject to actually make an account and post your thoughts here. I don’t post on here very often myself, but I felt compelled to in this instance like yourself. This is a scary slab to see being offered for sale because I think 1 or 2 of the people that replied to this post thought the coin looked ok. I look at a lot of graded gold on a daily basis and seeing a fake pcgs slab is the major concern. Seeing a fake gold coin is the lesser issue to me because there are lots of reproductions and copies out there.
I’m still looking for guidance from pcgs @HeatherBoyd and @BrettPCGS to know where/who do I submit information about fake pcgs slabs? I honestly don’t know what procedure the company has in place, and if I missed it being spoken about somewhere, please guide me in the right direction.
I believe PCGS has a bat phone directly to ebay when they are made aware and agree a slab is counterfeit.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
Hello 1 madman, All I found is old info from PCGS .To alert PCGS to any offerings of counterfeit PCGS holders, please notify PCGS Customer Service at info@pcgs.com. https://www.pcgs.com/news/counterfeit-pcgs-holders Great to talk , sorry it is on this crazy topic! Feel free to keep in touch.
Late to the party but it looks bogus to me. It could be a photography issue, but I'm leaning toward not legit.
100% Fake
Thank you for bringing this example to our attention. The coin is absolutely a fake coin in a fake PCGS holder. We have contacts with all of the major auction houses, eBay included, and have the ability to have auctions removed and coins flagged. I am absolutely someone who can be contacted when issues like this arise. Feel free to email me at sfeltner@collectors.com whenever questionable items pop up. Unfortunately, counterfeiting is an issue that will not be going away any time soon and we are grateful for individuals who are on the lookout.
Steve Feltner
PCGS Director of Numismatic Education and Outreach
@derryb
You’re up: 🎤
Such is the nature of discerning counterfeits that a few people on this thread suggested it was worth purchasing.
Moral of the story, maintain your own due diligence.
Thank you PCGS mod for intervening and sharing.
It was worth purchasing to me (if I wanted it) knowing paypal protection has my back. Done a lot of these type deals. Scored a lot of good deals and had to wait for a lot of refunds. That's about to all change with paypal no longer protecting a buyer of bullion at the end of the month.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
Derry,
I tend to be risk aversive when it comes to my bullion purchases. So far, so good. No losses, no refunds. I feel fortunate that I have known and dealt with strong dealers, buying and selling, some on this forum.
There are some outfits out there making "commemorative" gold Buffalo Indian Head tribute coins at $9.99 each. They have the thinnest layer of gold plating over a base metal. Must pump them out by the tens of thousands. The quality of this Ebay fakes reminds me of those coins. Doesn't take much to make one that could look "believable" to the uninformed. You see them routinely on the TV Boiler Room ads. Quality is much higher than this Ebay fake. And with the words "copy" removed would be quite formidable. Good thing the Ebay coin looked like a 5th grader engraved it.
https://ebay.com/itm/2017-24K-Gold-Plated-50-AMERICAN-GOLD-BUFFALO-Indian-Head-TRIBUTE-Coin-NEW/312088203985?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3D8a3f5533fd2c43ae891ee3dd979dae28%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D30%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D402281237710%26itm%3D312088203985%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2386202%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWeb&_trksid=p2386202.c100677.m4598
That was crazy! made me take my buffalo out
Good eye guys!
Cyrano De Bergerac nose. Fake
I would stay away, something don't jive, the look of the coin is to lacking, where's the dcam effect?
Ebay buyer left positive feedback ! Amazing! Feedback says! Recommended Ebayer
2011 W $50American Buffalo One Ounce Gold Proof Coin PCGS PR70DCAM 1oz .999 (#164298662035)
Buyer: j***e (1321)
US $1,990.00