Question about a coin struck over a host coin

coinkat

So this is the question... If the host coin and date can be identified, does PCGS and/or NGC include the host coin in the coin description on the slab?

As an example, you have a Brazil 1819 960 Reis struck over an 1808 Peru 8R... The date and attribution is clear... Would either TPG slab include reference to the 1808 8R as the host coin?

I am curious and I suspect others here have contemplated this question before and may have an answer. I further suspect it will easier to frame the question here than over the phone...

MasonG

Like this...https://dyn1.heritagestatic.com/lf?set=path%5B1%2F6%2F1%2F3%2F3%2F16133423%5D%2Csizedata%5B612x600%5D&call=url%5Bfile%3Aproduct.chain%5D

coinkat

Yes... Like that... Thanks for posting. But I wonder if the 1798 dollar had an impact on the decision to acknowledge the host coin

Rexford

Often the date of the undertype is not acknowledged, but the type is.

TwoKopeiki

I've seen NGC slabs with full attribution of the host when it comes to 960 Reis overstrikes, but not PCGS. Edited to add that you will probably have to pay for the extra variety attribution service to get it on the label.

MasonG

How about this?

amwldcoin

I suspect this is correct. I recently sold this 1821 960 Reis. It had a naked eye visible date of 1809 and the PTS MM was easily seen with a loupe.

@TwoKopeiki said:
I've seen NGC slabs with full attribution of the host when it comes to 960 Reis overstrikes, but not PCGS. Edited to add that you will probably have to pay for the extra variety attribution service to get it on the label.

Stella

I tend to see the host coin identified by type, but not date, in most cases. However, I would suggest mentioning this on the submission form to ensure that it gets labeled in the way that you are hoping.

coinkat

@Stella

When the time comes, that will be the plan-if for no other reason just to see what happens

Thanks for all of the replies. I am curious what most collectors think of the host coin and whether it weighs on their decision to buy or.pass on certain issues... I find it interesting and worth having some as examples to represent the full range of coinage from the day.

Stella

Fair enough, @coinkat

The areas that I collect in do not typically involve undertypes, but I find them fascinating and enjoy seeing or reading about them.

jgenn

Sometimes the undertype is the only reason I buy a coin.

coinkat

Thanks for posting a BOE Dollar... I like your example

Boosibri

Many of those post are counter stamped vs struck over.In my experience, the Brazilian pieces and Bank of England are generally not struck so weakly that the undertype can be identified down to the date but often type can be identified.

MasonG

@Boosibri said:
Many of those post are counter stamped vs struck over.

Sure, but the question was about identifying the host coin by type and date...

"If the host coin and date can be identified, does PCGS and/or NGC include the host coin in the coin description on the slab?"

jayPem

@jgenn said:
Sometimes the undertype it the only reason I buy a coin.

That's excellent!
As Boosibri said, the 1804 $'s don't often reveal much undertype detail..
But you of course are aware of that..😄

jayPem

Armoured bust type...180..?
Can you tell which country the 8R is?

jgenn

@jayPem said:
Armoured bust type...180..?
Can you tell which country the 8R is?

No, the mint mark is not visible but the weight is off and specific gravity is too low so it's actually an overstruck contemporary counterfeit.

TwoKopeiki

@jgenn said:

@jayPem said:
Armoured bust type...180..?
Can you tell which country the 8R is?

No, the mint mark is not visible but the weight is off and specific gravity is too low so it's actually an overstruck contemporary counterfeit.

That's an awesome coin, Jack!