Collectors of Washingtonia or Lincolniana

Zoins

Who are some notable collectors of Washingtonia and Lincolniana, and are there clubs for these collectors?

Some I'm familiar with:

• William Spohn Baker - Author of Medallic Portraits of Washington (Pennsylvania Magazine History and Biography), former Vice President Pennsylvania Historical Society
• Robert Pennick King - Author of "Lincoln in Numismatics, A Descriptive List of the Medals, Plaques, Tokens and Coins Issued in Honor of the Great Emancipator" (Medal Blog)
• Andrew Christian Zabriskie (Wikipedia, ANS), former President ANS

Here's a 1941 article on "Collecting Medallic Lincolniana". Interestingly, it uses the wrong middle initial for Robert King and Andrew Zabriskie.

https://www.friendsofthelincolncollection.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/LL_1941-08-11_01.pdf

Sonorandesertrat

John Ford
F. C. C. Boyd (Collins Sale, 1991)
Neil Musante authored a substantial, two-volume set, entitled "Medallic Washington"
Also see: Rulau, Russell R & George J. Fuld/Medallic Portraits of Washington (2nd Ed.)

Regarding Lincolniana, see:
Cunningham, Paul A./Lincoln’s Metallic Imagery: A Catalog and Price List of Lincoln Coins,
Tokens, Medals, and Plaques

DCW

You've hit on the big ones already. When I think Washingtonia, I think Baker.
And who could be a bigger name in Lincolniana than Captain Andrew Zabriskie? The sale of both their collections of exonumia were some of the most exciting auctions in the last 25 years.
Here is a medal from the Baker Collection that encompasses both genres:
Washington/Lincoln Medal by Joseph Merriam and John Bolen. 31mm. PCGS MS65RB

*Edited to add that the Lincoln die is by Merriam and the Washington die is from Bolen

johnny9434

Interesting learning here

Zoins

Thanks for the responses everyone.

Are there any clubs or societies for Washingtonia or Lincolniana? Or are they not popular enough to have their own?

DCW

I dont know of any clubs, but I know plenty of people who collect both.
Musante's expansive Washington book helped stimulate interest, as a new book always does.

cardinal

@DCW said:
I dont know of any clubs, but I know plenty of people who collect both.
Musante's expansive Washington book helped stimulate interest, as a new book always does.

I've had this one for a long time, and thanks to Musante's Washington book, I was able to get it encapsulated by PCGS:

MidLifeCrisis

Check out Stack's 2006 Norweb Sale, the first catalog on the link below. The Norweb Washingtonia begin primarily on page 263 (Session 3).

https://www.stacksbowers.com/Pages/CatalogLibrary.aspx?Search=Norweb

keyman64

@cardinal said:
I've had this one for a long time, and thanks to Musante's Washington book, I was able to get it encapsulated by PCGS:

That is really cool!

oldabeintx

Ida Tarbell was an interesting and early collector of Lincolniana. Don't recall if her collection included items of numismatic interest but she amassed quite a collection of items directly or closely linked to Lincoln.

Pioneer1

David Schenkman or Paul Cunningham as well perhaps ?

BTW you'll notice that the piece I put here does not have a die break on the obverse... while the one earlier in the post does... all I know is that the die break indicates a later restrike on some of these pieces after the dies were resold

Zoins

@Pioneer1 said:
BTW you'll notice that the piece I put here does not have a die break on the obverse... while the one earlier in the post does... all I know is that the die break indicates a later restrike on some of these pieces after the dies were resold

Interesting. Do we know the provenance fo the dies and who could have done the later strikes?

DCW

@Pioneer1 said:

David Schenkman or Paul Cunningham as well perhaps ?

BTW you'll notice that the piece I put here does not have a die break on the obverse... while the one earlier in the post does... all I know is that the die break indicates a later restrike on some of these pieces after the dies were resold

Actually, what you have posted is a completely different die. They are very similar, but take note of the subtle differences in the depiction of Lincoln. Most notably, there is a period after 1809 in the 2nd die.

Both dies are Merriam's work and exhibit die cracks that are on virtually all examples. If you look closely on yours, Im sure you'll find at least the beginning of a lateral crack that starts west of Lincoln by the A in Abraham and eventually runs through his face, under his eye and to the nose. At some point the die failed and he produced the 2nd version with the noted differences. That failed early as well, but continued to be used in odd mulings of his other work as well as that of contemporary die sinker, John Bolen.

The medal you posted is very rare and when encountered is almost always circulated and holed. It is considered one of the first commemorative medalets of the Civil War. I have seen just one example of this medal with the 2nd obverse die.

Here is my example of the original die work, ex. Capt Andrew Zabriskie:

By the way, Merriam also employed his Washington die with the Turpentine Works reverse at the same time as the Lincoln issue. I find that one to be even rarer.
I'll have to find my photo of this one later on.

Thanks for posting yours. What is it graded?

DCW

@Zoins said:

@Pioneer1 said:
BTW you'll notice that the piece I put here does not have a die break on the obverse... while the one earlier in the post does... all I know is that the die break indicates a later restrike on some of these pieces after the dies were resold

Interesting. Do we know the provenance fo the dies and who could have done the later strikes?

Most of these dies are thought to have come to W. Elliot Woodward probably via McCoy who ordered small batches of mulings in the 1870s. All are extremely rare with 1-5 known

Zoins

@DCW said:

@Zoins said:

@Pioneer1 said:
BTW you'll notice that the piece I put here does not have a die break on the obverse... while the one earlier in the post does... all I know is that the die break indicates a later restrike on some of these pieces after the dies were resold

Interesting. Do we know the provenance fo the dies and who could have done the later strikes?

Most of these dies are thought to have come to W. Elliot Woodward probably via McCoy who ordered small batches of mulings in the 1870s. All are extremely rare with 1-5 known

Do we know what happened to the dies after Woodward?

DCW

@Zoins said:

@DCW said:

@Zoins said:

@Pioneer1 said:
BTW you'll notice that the piece I put here does not have a die break on the obverse... while the one earlier in the post does... all I know is that the die break indicates a later restrike on some of these pieces after the dies were resold

Interesting. Do we know the provenance fo the dies and who could have done the later strikes?

Most of these dies are thought to have come to W. Elliot Woodward probably via McCoy who ordered small batches of mulings in the 1870s. All are extremely rare with 1-5 known

Do we know what happened to the dies after Woodward?

Like so many things in the world of exonumia, I dont think we'll ever know. Not many dies remain. I hear the ANA has some of Bolen's dies. And you of course have the Pynchon House dies. @BillJones has a patriotic die of Abraham Lincoln, I think. Very rare stuff

BillJones

Yes, I do. I have heard that there are three Civil War token dies known. I bid on a second one, but was the underbidder.

The die.

A token made from the die. The token is quite scarce.

The third CWT die was used make these pieces that were handed out for the 1939 Central States Coin Convention.

And here is a token that was made from it during the 1864 presidential campaign. This is piece is quite rare. I have never seen this die offered for sale.

It is interesting to note that both of these dies were made by Key token works in Philadelphia. The third die was made by Scoville.

Jimnight

DCW

@BillJones Here is another die which Steve Hayden had in his 2014 auction:



Sold for $5k, which I think was an absolute steal

Coinosaurus

No dedicated clubs. Aficionados tend be members of MCA (Medal Collectors of America) or TAMS (Token and Medal Society).

NumisOxide

Cool and rare items!

BillJones

I was the underbidder on that die. I already had a CWT die, so I didn't push it any further.

BTW there are more than a few collectors who love the coins or tokens, but could who care less about the dies. These type of old days are usually unique, but it does not matter.

Zoins

Steve Hayden mentions the following in existence, all having been used to restrike tokens.. I'm not sure if hee's using Fuld-173 and Fuld-174 to refer to the same die. 3 are mentioned in this thread.

• Fuld-123
• Fuld-129 - 1864 Abraham Lincoln by F.C. Key & Sons. Restruck by J. Henry Ripstra.
• Fuld-131 - 1864 Abraham Lincoln by F.C. Key & Sons. @BillJones die. This was formerly owned by Steve Tanenbaum and sold by Steve Hayden. Various restrikes made on other Civil War tokens.
• Fuld-153
• Fuld-173/174 - First in War, First in Peace by Scoville Manufacturing - A number of restrike have been made with this including gold, silver and aluminum. This was owned by George Fuld and sold by Steve Hayden as posted by @DCW above.

I'm aware of 1 more CWT die (no restrikes I'm aware of) and potentially 1 more (the photos were too blurry to make out).

I'm actively looking for Civil War Token dies so if anyone knows of one available, let me know

Steve's listings:

• Fuld-131: https://www.civilwartokens.com/Event/LotDetails/2678432/131Steel-DIE-AU-Abraham-Lincoln-Civil-War-token
• Fuld-173: https://www.civilwartokens.com/Event/LotDetails/2683054/33-173Steel-DIE-Unlisted-AU-Patriotic-Civil-War-token

Zoins

I also have a fascination with restrikes from these Civil War Token dies and enjoy tracing them.

Here's a restrike token from Bill's die that was recently sold by Steve Hayden. I have one from Bill's die overstruck an undertaker token with a coffin which I need to find.

Hayden mentions this sis a 21st century restrike and I'm still trying to get more information on when and who struck these. Tanenbaum passed away on February 2011 and Bill purchased this die in October 2011.

Pioneer1

@DCW said:
Actually, what you have posted is a completely different die. They are very similar, but take note of the subtle differences in the depiction of Lincoln. Most notably, there is a period after 1809 in the 2nd die.

Both dies are Merriam's work and exhibit die cracks that are on virtually all examples. If you look closely on yours, Im sure you'll find at least the beginning of a lateral crack that starts west of Lincoln by the A in Abraham and eventually runs through his face, under his eye and to the nose. At some point the die failed and he produced the 2nd version with the noted differences. That failed early as well, but continued to be used in odd mulings of his other work as well as that of contemporary die sinker, John Bolen.

Excellent information; thank you! I looked at my Abraham Lincoln "Turpentine" piece as I call it under a 10x power, and honestly I didn't see a die break. It's an MS-63. I bought it raw as I collect NC-related Exonumia/Medals and liked the reverse. I didn't realize it was that rare.

By the way, Merriam also employed his Washington die with the Turpentine Works reverse at the same time as the Lincoln issue. I find that one to be even rarer.

I think there was one in the Stacks 2019 Baker sale... went for big money.

DCW

@Pioneer1 said:

By the way, Merriam also employed his Washington die with the Turpentine Works reverse at the same time as the Lincoln issue. I find that one to be even rarer.

I think there was one in the Stacks 2019 Baker sale... went for big money.

Actually, that was a muling with Bolen's Washington die, a restrike. Rare in its own right.
Here is Merriam's original striking with his Washington die:

coinsarefun

@BillJones said:
Yes, I do. I have heard that there are three Civil War token dies known. I bid on a second one, but was the underbidder.

The die.

A token made from the die. The token is quite scarce.

The third CWT die was used make these pieces that were handed out for the 1939 Central States Coin Convention.

And here is a token that was made from it during the 1864 presidential campaign. This is piece is quite rare. I have never seen this die offered for sale.

It is interesting to note that both of these dies were made by Key token works in Philadelphia. The third die was made by Scoville.

...
.
.
I have these 2 medals. If I understand you right Bill that Scoville made the die for these?
.
.

BillJones

The Key family produced the obverse Lincoln dies. It’s probably William Key.

coinsarefun

@BillJones said:
The Key family produced the obverse Lincoln dies. It’s probably William Key.

.
.
Ok, thanks Bill. Would have any idea as to how many were made of each?

Tony_Lassitter

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=2&pub=5575378759&campid=5338273189&customid=&icep_item=124634667792&ipn=psmain&icep_vectorid=229466&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg&toolid=11111

Zoins

1864 Abraham Lincoln Civil War Token - Brockage Error - Brass - by (William?) Key - Fuld-131 Patriotic CWT - Ex. Wayne Stafford, Q. David Bowers Reference Collection, Steve Hayden

I just picked up this token from Steve Hayden's Feb 2021 Mega Sale. I just really liked how this one turned out and how the back side is concave as the metal flowed into the bust device.

Given that it's attributed to Wayne Stafford before it entered QDB's Reference Collection, I wonder if any of the Fuld-131 recent restrikes can be attributed to Wayne?

Crypto

I have a two-fer , PCGS SP55 (1864 silver)

coindeuce

I have J.J. Pittman’s JK-AC-17 1878 Assay Commission Medal, which features the classic Houdon portrait of Washington on obverse.