Do you have a rough plan, methodology regarding how much trash you plan on talking if your right? Keep it classy? Reply “idiot” to every “it’s not a proof” comment? Looking for a glimmer into what you've thought about so far.
Woah, that’s a little uncalled for! It’s understandably difficult to diagnose the coin properly from the pre-conservation and otherwise imperfect images and videos I included here. It’s also more than a little controversial for me or anyone else to call a raw coin, regardless of its appearance, a proof of which half a dozen are known.
My main purpose in making this post was to see how people felt about the choice to neutralize the PVC, and to provoke discussion about the coin in general. Knowing that I am the only person who has viewed it in hand, post-conservation, my opinion on the piece will not really change based on the responses here, but I am interested in picking up additional information and viewpoints. Of course, people can be wrong, especially without seeing it in hand. Or I could be wrong. I’m not really concerned with either on a personal level.
I think it’ll be more than fair to take a little verbal victory lap!
And to clarify, I’m not claiming the coin is or isn’t a proof, but am rather more interested in how these judgements are made in general. Rooting for you.
The discussion regarding the doubled profile has been very informative. My 1808 Quarter Eagle had that quality and I was always curious how it occurred. It was even more evident on my 1808 Quarter Eagle than in the OP's example. I am curious where it is today, having sold it in a Heritage Auction. Maybe someone can locate the auction photo as I assume a doubled profile 1808 Quarter Eagle may well be unique given that there are only 50-60 specimens known per Garrett and Guth in their "100 Greatest U.S. Coins" Second Edition.
@scubafuel said:
That would make sense to me. If you're at the mint providing a one-off for a visitor or such, it's much easier to shine up a planchet than to remove the dies and shine them.
That said, why would a "better than normal" strike be expected on such a coin? Is it likely they give this one coin extra pressure in the midst of the run, or just strike as normal so the visitor has an "extra shiny" souvenir? This is where my knowledge of mint machinery of that era is lacking. I have no idea how hard it would be to add an extra 10% or so of striking power for a one-off. Seems unlikely to be simple.
However, I can see how a slightly better-than-normal strike could be achieved simply by giving the planchet a good shine and removing any scuffing or debris.
I assume the stronger strike is due to a) choosing a pair of dies that have not yet been worn down much, so the design is full, and b) physically striking the coin more than once, which seems to be evidenced here by the doubling detail.
Seems that a fair number of people here really haven't done much review of proof coins from this time period. Or at least those designated proof in TPG holders. They include coins with no cameo, poor strikes, doubling, the lot of it. Looking at the video the coin clearly is a world apart from any Business Strike bust half I've seen and it has several of those attributes going for it. However, to say at this point whether or not it's a fact it's a proof I think is impossible.
@Clio said:
Seems that a fair number of people here really haven't done much review of proof coins from this time period. Or at least those designated proof in TPG holders. They include coins with no cameo, poor strikes, doubling, the lot of it. Looking at the video the coin clearly is a world apart from any Business Strike bust half I've seen and it has several of those attributes going for it. However, to say at this point whether or not it's a fact it's a proof I think is impossible.
We will have to leave that up to the TPG gods.
Best of luck!
And yet, from my perspective, looking at the video, the coin is a world apart from just about any Proof example that I’ve seen. I hope I’m wrong about it, but I’m not at all optimistic.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Also I think there have been coins called proof or not-proof, where later the TPGs changed their minds. I decided a while back (with some recommendations from a trusted dealer), not to play in that pool.
@Rexford said:
I assume the stronger strike is due to a) choosing a pair of dies that have not yet been worn down much, so the design is full, and b) physically striking the coin more than once, which seems to be evidenced here by the doubling detail.
Just to be clear, the profile doubling -- so common with bust halves, is not caused by a second striking. It is due to a loose hammer die. Below is an example of quadruple doubling (1823 O.111).
Lance.
@Rexford said:
I assume the stronger strike is due to a) choosing a pair of dies that have not yet been worn down much, so the design is full, and b) physically striking the coin more than once, which seems to be evidenced here by the doubling detail.
Just to be clear, the profile doubling -- so common with bust halves, is not caused by a second striking. It is due to a loose hammer die. Below is an example of quadruple doubling (1823 O.111).
Yep, this was noted above by @scubafuel. It threw me off that the doubling was so sharp and defined, but that makes sense. On that note, here’s an 1826 proof with the same issue:
Another note regarding business strike coins of 1830, from the NGC site:
“The half dollars of 1830-33 are often seen poorly struck from quite worn dies. The original mint facility of 1792 was showing its age, and a new one was already under construction. This distraction seems to have affected the quality of the coins during these years, and locating a sharp 1830 half dollar from fresh dies can be quite challenging.“ This was my finding as well when looking through images of half dollars of the date.
Whatever the coin gets designated, it definitely has unique features. Thanks for sharing. I’m in love with the fields and Whoa! those stars are crisp! Such a cool piece.
I was pleasantly surprised when an ICG AU55 1829 Bust half, a date that is known for more PLs than some others went AU58 prooflike at NGC. I had bought the coin raw and thought it was slightly cleaned. Both prooflike and especially proof adds a lot of money to these coins, I would not touch it without an expert appraisal such as Mark Feld, and original impartial photos.
@lkeigwin said:
Just to be clear, the profile doubling -- so common with bust halves, is not caused by a second striking. It is due to a loose hammer die. Below is an example of quadruple doubling (1823 O.111).
Lance.
For those who are fans of the classic Saturday morning cartoons ... this CBH looks like Liberty was hit on the head with a frying pan with her head shaking back and forth ...
Love that doubling, quadrupling, octupling, or whatever! LOL
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I don't think it is a proof.
Coincidentally I had a similar looking 1830 a few years ago that had been dipped but had really nice PL surfaces and a killer strike too although not as strong as the OP's coin.
I don't remember what Overton it was.
It was 61/2/58ish (raw)
Just wanted to share this piece that I recently purchased raw from Europe. I bought it sight-unseen > based on a scanned photo, but I was hedging on it being a proof due to the extremely detailed >strike (see: stars and upper hair curl), the way the light appeared to reflect off of the devices overall, > and the very heavy strike doubling to the left of the portrait.
.
i like your decision and how you worded it. risk vs reward. odds were highly against but IF it panned out, what a find.
.
So in essence, I turned an original-looking (keyword: looking) coin that might pass as a 62 or > plausibly even a 63 at a TPG,
.
there isn't much concern there as the top 3 TPG 99% wouldn't have send it back in even a details holder with any noticeable PVC on the coin . i'm pretty sure it wouldn't even say PR details if a coin were to be a proof. which is why they are called body bags. lol - i've had a couple.
it sounds like you know what you are doing so I hope you post some more of these in the future. i am not picking on anything you are saying. i appreciate what you did and then took the time to share it with us and i look forward to hearing the result!
some great knowledge and people posting here. one of my favorite things about this place, no matter how good we are individually, with this many eyes and this much knowledge, so long as one is willing to share, there isn't much going to slide past this group. especially these days.
Just wanted to share this piece that I recently purchased raw from Europe. I bought it sight-unseen > based on a scanned photo, but I was hedging on it being a proof due to the extremely detailed >strike (see: stars and upper hair curl), the way the light appeared to reflect off of the devices overall, > and the very heavy strike doubling to the left of the portrait.
.
i like your decision and how you worded it. risk vs reward. odds were highly against but IF it panned out, what a find.
.
So in essence, I turned an original-looking (keyword: looking) coin that might pass as a 62 or > plausibly even a 63 at a TPG,
.
there isn't much concern there as the top 3 TPG 99% wouldn't have send it back in even a details holder with any noticeable PVC on the coin . i'm pretty sure it wouldn't even say PR details if a coin were to be a proof. which is why they are called body bags. lol - i've had a couple.
it sounds like you know what you are doing so I hope you post some more of these in the future. i am not picking on anything you are saying. i appreciate what you did and then took the time to share it with us and i look forward to hearing the result!
some great knowledge and people posting here. one of my favorite things about this place, no matter how good we are individually, with this many eyes and this much knowledge, so long as one is willing to share, there isn't much going to slide past this group. especially these days.
Thank you for your comments! I had similar thoughts regarding the PVC. The coin may have looked straight-gradeable before from a distance, but it probably would have been refused from grading entirely with that coating over the surfaces.
Did our host grade the coin ? If so what was the verdict ?
Awaiting final word at the moment. It may be some time though.
Any updates ?
Nope!
Why not?
I'm guessing you didn't submit it under the economy tier and you wrote this more than a month ago:
"Awaiting final word at the moment. It may be some time though."
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Bump since I just edited the title. For the record, I think a Details grade is likely warranted in the end due to the PVC damage. But, as long as it goes Proof I’m happy. I’d be interested to hear any new thoughts based on the TrueView.
@Rexford said:
I’ll update the thread when the grade is ready. In the meantime, here’s the Trueview:
Um, well, that looks very nice. I’m no grading expert but those fields look very proof like from the TrueView... nice coin. Can’t wait to see the final grade/designation.
Nice images... I would rather see the coin in hand before offering an opinion as to whether it is a proof. Not sure how this will turn out after looking at the trueview. Best wishes for a good outcome.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@Boosibri said:
How do you get the Trueview before the grade. It works in reverse for me
I would imagine they have had it for a while now. He calls up asking for a grade on a coin he sent in walkthrough/express a few months ago and has not heard anything about, and they throw him the images as SOMETHING they have done.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I haven't seen it in-hand, but those TV images make it appear to be a polished, AU business strike. I know, I know, you are glad I'm not the one doing the grading...
@TomB said:
I haven't seen it in-hand, but those TV images make it appear to be a polished, AU business strike. I know, I know, you are glad I'm not the one doing the grading...
It does kind of look like that in the TV. Then again, it does not in the pre-conservation images at the top of the thread. Not really sure what to think, to be honest.
I mean, I guess technically if it is a proof, polishing the planchet would be part of the preparation before striking (I’m not sure that would carry over as the same look though).
I imagine very few of our PCGS submissions involve Bust coins where a determination of the striking process requires research. Given that, the normal sequence of operations probably doesn't apply.
Comments
Woah, that’s a little uncalled for! It’s understandably difficult to diagnose the coin properly from the pre-conservation and otherwise imperfect images and videos I included here. It’s also more than a little controversial for me or anyone else to call a raw coin, regardless of its appearance, a proof of which half a dozen are known.
My main purpose in making this post was to see how people felt about the choice to neutralize the PVC, and to provoke discussion about the coin in general. Knowing that I am the only person who has viewed it in hand, post-conservation, my opinion on the piece will not really change based on the responses here, but I am interested in picking up additional information and viewpoints. Of course, people can be wrong, especially without seeing it in hand. Or I could be wrong. I’m not really concerned with either on a personal level.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
I think it’ll be more than fair to take a little verbal victory lap!
And to clarify, I’m not claiming the coin is or isn’t a proof, but am rather more interested in how these judgements are made in general. Rooting for you.
The discussion regarding the doubled profile has been very informative. My 1808 Quarter Eagle had that quality and I was always curious how it occurred. It was even more evident on my 1808 Quarter Eagle than in the OP's example. I am curious where it is today, having sold it in a Heritage Auction. Maybe someone can locate the auction photo as I assume a doubled profile 1808 Quarter Eagle may well be unique given that there are only 50-60 specimens known per Garrett and Guth in their "100 Greatest U.S. Coins" Second Edition.
They just have Bubba's brother team up with Bubba to give the screw press some extra Umpph!
Seems that a fair number of people here really haven't done much review of proof coins from this time period. Or at least those designated proof in TPG holders. They include coins with no cameo, poor strikes, doubling, the lot of it. Looking at the video the coin clearly is a world apart from any Business Strike bust half I've seen and it has several of those attributes going for it. However, to say at this point whether or not it's a fact it's a proof I think is impossible.
We will have to leave that up to the TPG gods.
Best of luck!
https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery
The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"
And yet, from my perspective, looking at the video, the coin is a world apart from just about any Proof example that I’ve seen. I hope I’m wrong about it, but I’m not at all optimistic.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Also I think there have been coins called proof or not-proof, where later the TPGs changed their minds. I decided a while back (with some recommendations from a trusted dealer), not to play in that pool.
No matter how the grading turns out, I dig it. Nice half.
I have no idea how hard it would be to add an extra 10% or so of striking power for a one-off. Seems unlikely to be simple.
get a bigger sledge-hammer!!
Just to be clear, the profile doubling -- so common with bust halves, is not caused by a second striking. It is due to a loose hammer die. Below is an example of quadruple doubling (1823 O.111).
Lance.
why are the proofs different Overton's? where they made at different times?
nice coin, I wish you luck
Are you referring to the 1833, 34, 35 crushed letter edge proofs?
Lance.
Yep, this was noted above by @scubafuel. It threw me off that the doubling was so sharp and defined, but that makes sense. On that note, here’s an 1826 proof with the same issue:
https://images.pcgs.com/CoinFacts/39024437_195777611_2200.jpg
Another note regarding business strike coins of 1830, from the NGC site:
“The half dollars of 1830-33 are often seen poorly struck from quite worn dies. The original mint facility of 1792 was showing its age, and a new one was already under construction. This distraction seems to have affected the quality of the coins during these years, and locating a sharp 1830 half dollar from fresh dies can be quite challenging.“ This was my finding as well when looking through images of half dollars of the date.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Great thread!
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Below is an example of quadruple doubling.
wouldn't that be eight impressions??
Whatever the coin gets designated, it definitely has unique features. Thanks for sharing. I’m in love with the fields and Whoa! those stars are crisp! Such a cool piece.
I was pleasantly surprised when an ICG AU55 1829 Bust half, a date that is known for more PLs than some others went AU58 prooflike at NGC. I had bought the coin raw and thought it was slightly cleaned. Both prooflike and especially proof adds a lot of money to these coins, I would not touch it without an expert appraisal such as Mark Feld, and original impartial photos.
For those who are fans of the classic Saturday morning cartoons ... this CBH looks like Liberty was hit on the head with a frying pan with her head shaking back and forth ...
Love that doubling, quadrupling, octupling, or whatever! LOL
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
OP - are you ready to share with us what the coin looked like after you removed the PVC and before ti was sent out for grading?
I don’t have any photos of it in that state unfortunately.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Doesn’t say proof to these eyes but nobody would pay me to grade. Good luck
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
How long do you expect it will take to have a Trueview available to share?
Looking forward to see what all have been guessing about.
I don't think it is a proof.
Coincidentally I had a similar looking 1830 a few years ago that had been dipped but had really nice PL surfaces and a killer strike too although not as strong as the OP's coin.
I don't remember what Overton it was.
It was 61/2/58ish (raw)
Awaiting final word at the moment. It may be some time though.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
.
i like your decision and how you worded it. risk vs reward. odds were highly against but IF it panned out, what a find.
.
.
there isn't much concern there as the top 3 TPG 99% wouldn't have send it back in even a details holder with any noticeable PVC on the coin . i'm pretty sure it wouldn't even say PR details if a coin were to be a proof. which is why they are called body bags. lol - i've had a couple.
it sounds like you know what you are doing so I hope you post some more of these in the future. i am not picking on anything you are saying. i appreciate what you did and then took the time to share it with us and i look forward to hearing the result!
some great knowledge and people posting here. one of my favorite things about this place, no matter how good we are individually, with this many eyes and this much knowledge, so long as one is willing to share, there isn't much going to slide past this group. especially these days.
Thank you for your comments! I had similar thoughts regarding the PVC. The coin may have looked straight-gradeable before from a distance, but it probably would have been refused from grading entirely with that coating over the surfaces.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Nope!
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Why not?
I'm guessing you didn't submit it under the economy tier
and you wrote this more than a month ago:
"Awaiting final word at the moment. It may be some time though."
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
How much extra time would it take for the grading service to grade the coin if it is a proof with express or even regular service?
I’ll update the thread when the grade is ready. In the meantime, here’s the Trueview:
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
LINK to the very nice trueview pic rex provided.
Thanks! Forgot to make it clickable. I’ll edit my comment
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
no worries. i was just doing it out of habit. and as a reminder the verdict is near!!!!.........
Bump since I just edited the title. For the record, I think a Details grade is likely warranted in the end due to the PVC damage. But, as long as it goes Proof I’m happy. I’d be interested to hear any new thoughts based on the TrueView.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Um, well, that looks very nice. I’m no grading expert but those fields look very proof like from the TrueView... nice coin. Can’t wait to see the final grade/designation.
Nice images... I would rather see the coin in hand before offering an opinion as to whether it is a proof. Not sure how this will turn out after looking at the trueview. Best wishes for a good outcome.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
congrats on finding such a cool coin overseas and bringing it back home. I'm anxious to see the final grade on it.
How do you get the Trueview before the grade. It works in reverse for me
Latin American Collection
I would imagine they have had it for a while now. He calls up asking for a grade on a coin he sent in walkthrough/express a few months ago and has not heard anything about, and they throw him the images as SOMETHING they have done.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I haven't seen it in-hand, but those TV images make it appear to be a polished, AU business strike. I know, I know, you are glad I'm not the one doing the grading...
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
It does kind of look like that in the TV. Then again, it does not in the pre-conservation images at the top of the thread. Not really sure what to think, to be honest.
I mean, I guess technically if it is a proof, polishing the planchet would be part of the preparation before striking (I’m not sure that would carry over as the same look though).
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
how did you manage to get a TrueView image before the grade is posted??
typically, my submissions are on the way to me with grades posted and waiting for images. please explain.
I imagine very few of our PCGS submissions involve Bust coins where a determination of the striking process requires research. Given that, the normal sequence of operations probably doesn't apply.
below is the OP's purported TrueView of his coin.
below is the only listed 1830 Proof in the PCGS pop report.
Hopefully an update is coming in the next week :-)
Do you know something that makes you believe he’s full of it? Come out and say it if you do as opposed to passive aggressive comments.
Come out and say it if you do as opposed to passive aggressive comments.
I don't know what your profession in life might be, but your attempt at Clinical Psychology will be short lived.