Need advice on what to pursue collecting (Indian quarters or Indian halves)
stownsin
Posts: 76 ✭✭✭
Hello, everyone
I am getting ready to begin collecting either Indian quarter eagles or Indian half eagles. Initially, I was going to focus on building a nice collection of the former, as there are very few 'key dates' and it seems more "accessible" in terms of essential price points. However, lately I have noticed that were one to look at a generic quarter in the PCGS price guide, one would see something around $380 for a MS60, while a similar generic in the half variety is around $550 for the same grade. Since a half has double the amount of gold, it seems strange that there is such a pricing disparity, even accounting for larger premiums on smaller coins.
My essential question is this: Given the smaller premium over melt for the Indian halves, are they a better investment strategy, as they have more room to grow in numismatic value?
I apologize for the newbie questions--I am still in the process of learning, so I ask a lot of questions :-)
Best,
Sean
Comments
both series are heavily tied to price of gold and have been heavily counterfeited so buying raw would be an issue for most people
"Numismatic Investment" in these 2 series peaked back in 2006-2009.....years before the price of gold peaked. The only exception might be for some finest knowns or top 3 superb gem specimens. The prices of better dates basically peaked over 10 yrs ago and will likely never return. Just too many coins and too few set builders. Premiums seem to drop year after year. Gold classic commems have been living that nightmare since 1989. There are even too many coins for gold type coin collectors and those prices have been sliding as well since 2006/2009.
About the only way I would approach these 2 sets with the notion of trying to make money (or not lose money) is finding a niche in the grading/pricing structure. And yes, I'd choose the $5's over the $2-1/2's if for only the additional gold in the $5's. If they had a $10 Indian "incuse" series I'd pick that one. In the end, more of these series will be swallowed up by the gold price in the months or years ahead. So my advice is too lean towards the most gold value. In that regards, maybe choose amazingly original "dirty" gold specimens in the VF30 to AU58 range. Perfect strikes. Great eye appeal. Original toning and surfaces. You might have to consider dozens of examples to find 1 that was just right. I would probably choose XF40/45 or lower....much lower pops...much lower price....harder to find by far than the UNCs. The $5's have more gold and are scarcer as a type coin, and have a better selection of scarcer dates.....3 reasons they could/should do better than the $2-1/2's.
If was doing a $5 Indian set, I would not buy the the 09-0 or 29 key dates. Just way too much money. And if you compare pops directly, there are other dates at much less money which are nearly as scarce. Some interesting value imo in the 08-s, 09-s, and other mint marked $5 dates in VF/XF and lower grades.....look at what those same dates bring in UNC. Huge spread. Your downside is always just the intrinsic gold....a nice safety net. The $2-1/2 Indian set doesn't have any better date/grade arbitrage that I can see. The 11-d $2-1/2 is still somewhat pricey....and maybe even a bit over-rated in all grades because it is the low mintage date in the set. My advice is to avoid the "key" dates. But do immediately go after the 2nd tier, semi-scarce dates that are in fact not considered key dates by many.....but truly are. Consider either set a gold investment 1st......numismatic 2nd....at least in grades of less than choice/gem mint state.
Always start with the key dates since they usually increase in value faster than the more common dates. The first coins you should buy are the 1911-D quarter eagle and the 1929 half eagle. The coins in these two series have been heavily counterfeited so buy them in top tier slabs.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Take davewesen's warning and stick to slabbed coins.
I've always been surprised that the 2 1/2s were more expensive (on a relative basis) but it's
always been that way. Probably a stronger premium because of the price point for newer collectors.
One advantage collecting the quarter eagles is you can get some very pretty and flashy coins in the MS 63- 64 grades (450-700) that become quite expensive for a half eagle.
Although always nice to have at least one flashy $5.
I have heard several dealers say that half eagles and eagles generally have the lowest premium over melt value. This is confirmed when you look at how an uncirculated gold dollar can cost over 5-6x melt for a common date while double eagles can be found just over melt value. A long time ago some experienced forum members told me not to collect based on price. If you are buying these as an investment go with the smallest premium of melt. However, the best way to guarantee growth in numismatic value is to acquire quality pieces for the goal grade of your collection. If buying online, go with CAC as this will confirm surface quality and luster.
I respectfully disagree with that. I think it's better to dip your toes in the water with less costly coins. When starting out, your knowledge of grading and market conditions likely wont be as advanced as it will, later.
There's also a chance that you'll change your mind regarding collecting pursuits. And rarer dates can perform as badly as or worse than common dates.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There have been no "numismatic" winners here since 2009. Prices have dropped and dropped other than for the finest known specimens that can fill into a top quality REG SET. All the rest have been losers driven by the price of gold and the large of number of new specimens that have been flooding in from overseas for decades. So buy what gives you the most gold and "collector satisfaction."
I guess the main question I would pose is how much money are you willing to spend and are you a completionist.
If money is not an object and you are not a completionist I would say go for the $5's, the opposite go for the $2+1/2's.
Personally I like the 5's a lot more than I do the $2+1/2's.
Depends on if you want a challenge of not?
It doesn't take much to do a $2 1/2 Indian set as beyond the 1911-D key the only other that commands a premium is the 1914-P. This is a set that can be completed pretty rapidly by surfing the web, auctions, and a couple shows. You can also at times buy a complete set as I recall seeing 3 available at one ANA show. Raw in capital holders missing just the 1911-D sets come up at at times too.
$5 Indians on the other hand in any grade could keep you busy for a decade or more trying to do a nice matched set. On the $5 Indians you can also just do your own set rules stopping at 1916 and pretending the 1929 doesn't exist.
I've always been drawn to $2 1/2 Indians. Fairly easy to out a nice set together, so I mixed it up and am trying to do a toned set. I bought most raw, and all are PCGS graded now. I've been collecting them for years, so can spot most fakes, but most people can't, so stick with graded at first (or buy from someone with experience with them). Good luck!
Stick to certified coins. I would not begin collecting coins primarily for investment. That's a recipe for trouble. You need to see lots of coins to learn what is available, what is nice for a given grade, etc. I also would not look at MS60 coins--that grade is typically given to coins that are one step away from not being deemed grade-worthy.
Buying coins is quite easy. Selling them will be much harder. Making a profit harder still.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Obviously there are credible opinions either way.... My preference is the $5 gold coin...I like the larger size. And, I like gold, both for it's beauty and for liquidity. I am not concerned with investment, since gold will always hold value. There is some risk in paying the premium for key coins, though that is minimal. Stick with slabbed coins. Cheers, RickO
This was true in the past. I have also read this advice regularly for "key dates" generally. I'd bet against it in the future and agree with Roadrunner.
US 20th century "key" dates are collectively among the most overpriced coins in the world for the collectible merits. Decades from now, I expect all to lose noticeable value, adjusted for price changes.
The 1911-D quarter eagle in particular is also a very common coin and very expensive for it's availability. Many collectors to this point consider it scarce due to the relatively low mintage and choose this series because it's the only affordable one to a large number of collectors.
IMO ... stay with certified coins!! Good luck and enjoy.
Wow! Very impressive....beautiful....outstanding, I could think of many other words too.
Some of those just knock your socks off!
I would prove it to you but I promised Heather no more toe nails.
I would definitely buy certified coins. I like bigger coins as opposed to smaller so I would pick the fives. Take your time and select the best coins of whatever grade you choose to collect.
FIVES !! in MS 63. Be picky.
and MS62.....when you find one close to 63.
I like em both. But, if I had to chose just one I’d go with the half eagles. Just a lot more coin to like in that particular design.
With gold at its current levels you are taking a risk of losing a significant portion of the value. While it has been quite some time now there was a time where gold was over $2K an oz; and then just a year ago prices were in the $1.1K an oz. My point is that depending on your outlook for the price of gold now may or may not be the best time to buy gold coins as an investment.
If you decide to buy I would follow the advice given above, buy $5's and buy slabbed CAC approved examples.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I didn't get any impression that he was buying for gold content.
I too am building the $5 Indian set. I have really nice coins so far in MS62 and MS63. I feel it’s going to take me some time to do the 1908-1916 set, which is fine, time and time again I am told it’s about the thrill of the hunt.
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If you want to invest in gold, buy the GLD. In terms of collecting gold coins, I'd advise you to pursue whatever best fits your taste and budget, and let the chips fall where they may when it comes time to sell. I'd find building a gold type set or focusing on (a) branch mint(s) more interesting than a date run of $2.5 or $5 Indians, but everyone's taste is different. Have fun whatever you decide to do.
This is also one of those cases where buying the book before buying the coin(s) can be helpful. There are several books out there on both series that go through date by date discussing strike, eye appeal, luster, rarity, etc.
Ahem.... let me post an excerpt from the GLD PROSPECTUS
"Because neither the Trustee nor the Custodian oversees or monitors the activities of
subcustodians who may temporarily hold the Trust's gold until transported to the Custodian's London
vault, failure by the subcustodians to exercise due care in the safekeeping of the Trust's gold could
result in a loss to the Trust."
There's more if you're interested.
I wouldn't buy GLD.
This has been "litigated" in prior threads, and I'm not going down that road again. If you don't trust a security (whatever it may be), don't buy it! Owning physical gold has its own set of risks and maintenance costs.
EOM.
"Newbie" and "investment" in the same post is usually not a recipe for a good outcome. Learn a bit more about these coins, why there's such thing as a nice coin and dreck at the same grade level and how to tell them apart, and who the good dealers are for this material. Collect what you like. If you like $5s better, collect them. I agree with @MarkFeld that you should buy some of the more common dates first. Any mistakes you make early will be smaller that way.
(Edited to fix gibberish)
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
What are "common keys"? Sounds like an oxymoron. Or did you mean "common dates"?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Yes, common dates. I like to make one mistake a day just to see if people are paying attention.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
A great series, but I strongly recommend you buy them certified. (PCGS or NGC)
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Reading through all of these comments reminds me why I love this community so much: there are so many passionate, knowledgeable, and dedicated numismatists. I do not think I did the best job in writing my post, however. I am trying to find a good balance between investing and my simple love for numismatics. One thing that attracts me to collecting Pre-1933 US gold are the interesting stories behind each of the coins, as well as the larger history behind them. The other thing I find attractive about collecting such coins is the 'intrinsic' value that gold naturally has. This is why I would be nervous in collecting, for instance, old copper: while the numismatic value is strong for certain dates/grades/etc., copper in and of itself is not a reason one would buy such coin. On (pardon the pun) the other side of the coin, I would not find a whole lot of joy simply buying modern gold eagles, as I do not see the historical attraction that I mentioned for the pre-1933 gold.
Thus, I am looking for a bit of both: numismatic value, as well as solid, built-in investment value. In the final analysis, I will probably end up collecting both sets at some point, so it probably does not matter which I focus on now.
I also only buy certified coins, when it comes to gold--I am not enough of an expert to determine if raw coins are counterfeit or cleaned, simply by looking at them.
A date set is a good way to still have a "set" and avoid some of the pricey key dates. I only have 3 of each but I really enjoy looking at them, moreso than anything else in my collection. With a huge price jump from 64-65, I think nice 63s and 64s are a decent value in the half eagles.
Hopefully not belaboring my earlier point here, but buying common pre-1933 gold coins should not be thought of as an investment, which is defined as buying something with an eye toward making a profit. You are basically speculating that the price of gold will go up by the time you want to sell. A better way to look at it might be to assume the price of gold will be roughly the same when you go to sell and, factoring in typical transaction costs for buying/selling coins, how much money will it ultimately cost you to own whatever set you put together. Then ask yourself if that expense will be justified by the enjoyment you get out of ownership. You may in fact realize a gain when you sell, but there are too many variables in play to assume you will, and you're fighting the transaction costs. I would agree with you that your proposed strategy limits your downside risk due to the intrinsic value of the gold and the small amount of numismatic premium you'll be paying in most cases.
Final thought: you'll be well-served by looking for PQ coins (upgrade candidates), as that will also protect your downside risk. Paying low premiums for desirable attributes like old holders and CAC stickers is also not a bad idea, if you can manage to do it. Take it slowly at first while you're accumulating market knowledge. Don't be afraid to shift gears down the road if you realize your initial trajectory was not optimal.
OK, enough advice for now. Just one man's perspective on the situation, FWIW.........
Whoops, I stand corrected!!
WS
Unless I missed something, the discussion has only been about $2.50 and $5 pieces.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Collect which ever one you like and avoid the overpriced cacs. Personally I would go for the $10 full Indians but its your world and collection. Have fun!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
A number of us that have ventured into gold, have started with an 8 or 12 pice type set.
3 types of $1g
2 types of $2.5g.- liberty and Indian
The $3g
2 types of $5g liberty and Indian
2 types of $10g
2 types of $20g liberty and st. Gaudens
The larger can usually be found at small premiums to melt, the smaller at at higher premiums, but cost is less.
If you check the site, you will see some examples...
From this start , you can expand to either add different mints, add older gold type coins or perhaps add the motto vs no motto versions.
Good luck
I'm assembling a date set of the quarter eagles with color. It becomes an easily affordable set when you don't have to worry about the '11-D or the '14-P if your goal is just to assemble a set. Absolutely stick to slabbed (PCGS/NGC) coins, tho.
He who knows he has enough is rich.
I had fun doing the 12 piece set:
(All certified, photoshopped into the holder here)
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THERE YA GO !!!! A 12 piece type set.
Personally, I don't see the reasoning behind collecting "sets."
Boring.
A "full set" carries no importance if you sell. It's for ...well... I don't know.
TYPE sets are interesting.
To me a "set" of indian quarter eagles is ONE coin. 1911-D
The rest? Meh....
Now a "set" of ....random... dates in nice tone or flash..... OH yeah!
I collected the complete $2.50 series in AU58-MS61 (some CAC as well). They are my favorite coins. As others have said and you noted above, collect only slabbed coins (PCGS or NGC for me) to have that measure of authenticity insurance, protect the coin, and make them easier to sell either by you or your heirs.
A complete set of $2.50's can be had for under $10,000 in the 58-61 range (half of this is the 1911-D of course). The complete set of the $5 coins would be exponentially more. The 1929 alone would be many times more than a complete set of the $2.50's for example.
I prioritized collecting the complete set. Some note above they prefer the variety with instead collecting type sets/nice examples of various denominations.
Enjoy the journey and the hunt!
I'd love to see what you have so far!
The $2.5 and $5 Indian gold are some of the more difficult coins to grade. So if you insist on these sets stick with the cheaper "common" dates until you really learn how to grade and VALUE the coins.
jom