Warning!! why does Ebay allow these postings?
YQQ
Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭✭✭
just noticed these ebay listings for COA certs and boxes.
How legal and how ethical is it?
I suggest that selling these (he has more listed) is outright fraud! IMO..
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/2008-5-GOLD-PROOF-FIVE-POUNDS-THE-PRINCE-OF-WALES-COA-ONLY/263118733517?hash=item3d431940cd:g:aroAAOSwzMtZgKVV
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/2013-5-GOLD-PROOF-300th-ANNIVERSARY-OF-THE-DEATH-QUEEN-ANNE-BOX-COA-ONLY/263117170398?hash=item3d430166de:g:PfYAAOSwvp5Zf45S
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1997-GOLD-PROOF-BRITANNIA-4-FOUR-COIN-SET-BOX-COA-ONLY/263117140165?hash=item3d4300f0c5:g:xXAAAOSwQoVZf4gU
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/2016-5-GOLD-PROOF-QUEEN-ELIZABETH-II-90th-BIRTHDAY-BOX-COA-ONLY/262972481026?hash=item3d3a619e02:g:w3YAAOSw42dZD17v
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1998-5-GOLD-PROOF-FIVE-POUNDS-PRINCE-OF-WALES-50th-BIRTHDAY-COA-ONLY/263118727635?hash=item3d431929d3:g:QoEAAOSwrSdZgKPZ
Comments
What fraud? They are clearly selling the box and COA? Do you know for sure they won't send what they listed? I don't get it.
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
I don't see an issue with selling the packaging materials. Not everyone keeps the materials with the coins and for those coins that are later certified the materials are often thrown into the garbage. If you had a certified example, or damaged original packaging materials, you may want to buy these. I see no issues.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Agree, not misleading to me
Latin American Collection
??? Not seeing any legal, ethical or fraud issues here.
I can see ethical issues if someone, for example, buys COA # 001 and then pairs it with a random item of that type and sells it as "Certified #001 L@@K!1!"
That'd be pretty scummy.
My wantlist & references
It would be, but that's on the guy who bought and misrepresented it. No seller has any control over what a buyer does with the things he buys that no longer belong to the seller.
Are you concerned with a counterfeiter getting their hands on it?
Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
American Numismatic Society
New York City
Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!
If I'm not mistaken, I seem to recall ebay banning these for that very reason. I'm not sure if it is still in place though.
the certs refers to a specific coin.
now with a purchased cert you can substitute any coin. The cert is numbered.
that is the part that is fraud imo. it is no longer the coin that was certified. Could be from PRoC for all that matters.
If the cert would be sealed with the coin it would be ok. But this way??? absolutely not IMO.
buy a box ok.
but buy a cert ?? NO
should be illegal as it is most ( for sure) likely being used for fraud- purposes.
It does not represent the original item.
it is just like switching coin flips / slabs.
The amount of effort in tracking product in order to be sure one specific COA stays with one specific coin makes this quite unlikely. What's much more probable- a bunch of coins are made and a bunch of COAs are printed. A coin is grabbed from one pile, a COA from another and they're put in a box.
I don't quite get the arguments here. This seems like a case for controlling it - however meagerly - on the supply side by prohibiting the sale of certificates of authenticity separated from the things they are certifying.
What is the case to allow the sale of these items?
My wantlist & references
TomB has already offered a legitimate reason:
"If you had a certified example, or damaged original packaging materials, you may want to buy these."
What is the case for not allowing their sale? The OP posted links to a number of COAs for sale- I can't help but notice he didn't post links to any listings of items being fraudulently sold using one of them. If it's a common occurrence, they shouldn't be hard to find, right?
edited to add... And even if these are somehow being fraudulently used, what's that got to do with the original sale? There are regular posts on this message board linking to listings for slabbed coins that are being misrepresented. Should slabbed coin sales be prohibited?
Ihave a 2006 five-coin Silver Eagle set that arrived with a smashed case. I might go looking for a replacement at some point.
Ok guys, there may be nothing illegal about selling numbered CoA's of any type. meaning you can make any coin you allocate that cert to, as being the coin the cert loosely describes, if it does, or even if it does not.
Numbered "certificates" usually imply or suggest, the item is a limited issue. But endless certs can be bought???
I give up, and have my own opinion about this practise which a few of you see fit to defend. That is Your privilege.
On the other hand, most of you probably do agree that forgeries, in slabs, boxes or raw, should not be available right?
What makes a fake Cert, wherever it originates, so different when used with another item as originally intended?
It appears you're changing the subject from "selling COAs" to "selling fake COAs". Is that so? And are you claiming that the COAs you linked to in your first post are fake?
edited to add...
If it 's illegal or unethical to sell a COA separated from the coin it was shipped with, why wouldn't it be just as illegal or unethical to sell the coin without the COA?
Please read the OP careful. And please do not twist facts around.
I am claiming nothing in the OP!!!
I only asked a question! And suggested my personal opinion!
The coin remains a coin! It just loses "certification."
A certificate serves no other purpose than to grant authority to a thing. To be blunt, if your certificate got damaged, that's it! Things happen! Perhaps you could request a new one from the certifying authority if they still exist... but obtaining an alternate certificate is just not appropriate.
That's like saying it's ok to buff out a scratch on a coin. Maybe it was an accident! But that's how it is now.
There is no legitimate purpose to selling certificates outside of a hypothetical niche "collector of certificates." And, honestly, we don't have to enable every niche collection! We can collectively say, "no, those aren't allowed here" even if it's not strictly illegal.
My wantlist & references
perfectly legal to do
Check out my coins for sale at the link below mid-priced (read carefully)
** https://photos.app.goo.gl/VLi1NBeJuE7UTkCE7**
I read the OP. You questioned whether it was legal/ethical to sell the COAs you linked to and then in another post, you talk about fake COAs. I asked you a question in order to clarify what you're complaining about- is it selling real COAs or selling fake COAs?
Found the relevant eBay policy. Under "Not Allowed" is "COAs and LOAs as stand-alone items"
That pretty well settles it.
My wantlist & references
The certificates people are selling are from the certifying authority. So what's the problem again?
No, it's not anything at all like that.
That is not true. As has been pointed out previously, COAs get thrown out when coins are sent for grading. When those coins get sold, the buyer has a legitimate reason for wanting one.
If you don't like them, don't buy them. Problem solved.
This is moot, given that eBay bans their sale, but in that example a decision was made by that person to trade the issued certificate for a TPG certificate. That trade should be final.
What you're arguing is that some folks should be able to have it both ways. That disadvantages people who view it as unethical and don't reattach a certificate and gives a leg up to those willing to reattach a certificate.
I would be open to considering it ok to reattach a certificate in the case where a TPG certifies and the original certificate does not have a number. But each of the certificates in the OP here are numbered. When you buy that certificate and sell your coin as #702, you are misrepresenting it. That becomes unethical.
My wantlist & references
That policy relates to autographs and trading cards.
If you want to compare it to coins, what is not allowed (and not ethical) would be to sell a raw coin with a PCGS label from another coin that was cracked out.
Going back to the COAs for coins, most have no direct link to the specific coin (unless the number is also on the coin-which some world coins do have). Many are just randomly placed at the mint. Some coins are even more removed from the COA. Several years back there were Mexican Libertad sets shipped to dealers with no COAs. The mint was supposed to ship the COAs at a later point and have the dealers add them to the sets (or mail them to customers who had already received the sets without a COA).
Obviously, not everybody agrees with that opinion. As far as eBay goes, they ban lots of items that are legal to own and sell.
I have no problem with those who are of the opinion selling COAs is unethical, and they are well within their rights to not buy them. Those people, however, do not have the right to force their opinion on others.
The number on the COA is not linked to the coin in any way. Any of the certificates could be used for any of the coins of that type. Don't believe me? Put on a blindfold. Have someone take 10 coins, remove the COAs from the packaging and mix them up. Take off the blindfold and put the coins back together with the "correct" COA. You can't do it. Using your argument, the COAs are no longer legitimate, but it is clear that all 10 coins and 10 COAs are real.
Many people by multiples of the same items from the mint. And then take them out of their boxes to look at them. Maybe they don't put them back in the same boxes when they're done, and now the coins are with different COAs. Would you be able to tell? If there is no way to tell, why does it matter?
Yikes. A pretty innocuous topic that is getting people so worked up. I wonder if the COA War.of 2020 will end up with people getting banned.
I sort of understand the concerns, but it is just a piece of paper.
The lure or marketabity of COAs has been proven to be powerful based on the feelings here. I guess they are a good marketing move.
BTW, who's to say that some certs don't get swapped out at the dealer? Once I ordered a set.of Hutt River Province coins (nickel, silver, gold) from someone who had multiple sets. My set came with two numbered COAs - one #15 and one much higher.
Something to consider: what happens when a dealer sends 100 coins to PCGS, and, once graded, wants to sell them with the COA. It's unlikely that the 100 COAs (and boxes) will be tied to the specific coins. What will happen is when a coin sells, a box and COA will be sent along. Even with the 2019 Reverse Proof Silver Eagles, if the coin wasn't sent sealed to PCGS or NGC, they wouldn't tie the cert to the coin (ie, put the cert number on the coin's slab label, which is understandable), but every seller still sold the coin with the numbered COA. In that case, there's no way to say that the COA is the actual one tied to the coin, since the coin doesn't have its number etched somewhere to cross-reference.
In truth, lacking something verifying that the COA for a given coin was with it from the time the sealed box was first opened, a COA doesn't really mean much. If the coin is genuine and the COA is real (I would never support printing a fake one), you have a valid pairing. Outside the Silver Eagles, I'm unaware of COAs ever being certified, which means unless you opened the box yourself (or trust the person you bought a coin from), there's no way to positively tie a coin to a specific COA.
As I mentioned 2 days ago but didn't feel like digging through ebay to find the link. This should stop all the bantering!
It's unfortunate the OP hasn't yet edited his first post, where he accuses an eBay seller of fraud.
MasonG
I have no intention to edit my post! My opinion stands. And my question stands.
And, I strongly object to you accusing me of something which is NOT true. (accusing an Ebay seller of fraud)
You and your imagination, the 2 of you, are twisting and re-twisting until it sounds what you wish to hear.
I say again, for the last time, and just for you:
in my post I asked a question and offered a personal opinion. I did NOT accuse any seller, nor a buyer, of anything.
Nothing else! In case you have an issue what _Opinion _means, maybe websters or google can tell you.
I find it amazing how a simple question can stir up a small hornets nest.
Dude. Your words:
"I suggest that selling these (he has more listed) is outright fraud!"