@ReggieCleveland said:
I've gotten plenty of loaded non-FASC boxes from BBCE that had stars/rookies showing on back.
Arthur
That may be true but as collectors submit their own boxes to BBCE for authentication and the prices for star packs continue to escalate, you can bet that pack pressing and Frankenstein boxes will become more common for 1980s product as it has been with 1970s boxes. (Not to mention sequence searchers.)
This is one of the reasons, too, I like the old school, first generation BBCE wrapped boxes because back then Steve was wrapping only his own inventory and we all know he does not cherrypick his boxes. As an unopened collector, I'm willing to pay the FASC premium for peace of mind and the knowledge that the box is 100% original and intact.
I'm sure it's going to get worse but Steve's always had quality product that wasn't FASC. I've got '83 Topps Gwynn, '84 Topps Mattingly, '85 Clemens and Puckett packs, those have all been in-demand for years.
I don't really have a dog in the fight anymore. I think the only BBCE wax boxes I have in my sports collection now are '89 Donruss FASC and '91 Bowman, unless I'm forgetting something small I still have tucked away in a moving box, I just bought an '87 Topps rack box FASC (and am still licking my wounds from the premium I paid) but I don't think non-FASC is necessarily a kiss of death.
Arthur
If it's product direct from Steve or BBCE inventory, I agree. However, most boxes these days that are BBCE wrapped are not from Steve directly.
Okay, I'm pleading ignorance. Do you mean BBCE wrapped boxes from sellers other than Steve?
Arthur
Yes, most boxes bought and sold today are on the secondary market not from Steve directly.
The amount of funny business has increased?
Arthur
Not funny business in the sense that packs aren't authentic in a BBCE wrapped box, but FASC is the only way to be assured that the box has not been cherrypicked or pressed. This is especially noteworthy for rack and cello boxes where star packs sell for huge premiums. You open a 1980 cello box and find a Henderson on top pack. You send that pack to PSA for grading and then buy a loose common pack to refill the box and get it wrapped again. FASC is the only way to guarantee that won't happen.
I bought into FASC early on in my unopened endeavors as you know Tim. AS a matter of fact, if a 1980 and LATER box is not FASC I won't touch it. End of story. That's just me though. God Bless America. However, I would amend that behavior for anything 1979 on down since FASC product in those years are f'ing unicorns
@ReggieCleveland said:
I've gotten plenty of loaded non-FASC boxes from BBCE that had stars/rookies showing on back.
Arthur
That may be true but as collectors submit their own boxes to BBCE for authentication and the prices for star packs continue to escalate, you can bet that pack pressing and Frankenstein boxes will become more common for 1980s product as it has been with 1970s boxes. (Not to mention sequence searchers.)
This is one of the reasons, too, I like the old school, first generation BBCE wrapped boxes because back then Steve was wrapping only his own inventory and we all know he does not cherrypick his boxes. As an unopened collector, I'm willing to pay the FASC premium for peace of mind and the knowledge that the box is 100% original and intact.
I'm sure it's going to get worse but Steve's always had quality product that wasn't FASC. I've got '83 Topps Gwynn, '84 Topps Mattingly, '85 Clemens and Puckett packs, those have all been in-demand for years.
I don't really have a dog in the fight anymore. I think the only BBCE wax boxes I have in my sports collection now are '89 Donruss FASC and '91 Bowman, unless I'm forgetting something small I still have tucked away in a moving box, I just bought an '87 Topps rack box FASC (and am still licking my wounds from the premium I paid) but I don't think non-FASC is necessarily a kiss of death.
Arthur
If it's product direct from Steve or BBCE inventory, I agree. However, most boxes these days that are BBCE wrapped are not from Steve directly.
Okay, I'm pleading ignorance. Do you mean BBCE wrapped boxes from sellers other than Steve?
Arthur
Yes, most boxes bought and sold today are on the secondary market not from Steve directly.
The amount of funny business has increased?
Arthur
Not funny business in the sense that packs aren't authentic in a BBCE wrapped box, but FASC is the only way to be assured that the box has not been cherrypicked or pressed. This is especially noteworthy for rack and cello boxes where star packs sell for huge premiums. You open a 1980 cello box and find a Henderson on top pack. You send that pack to PSA for grading and then buy a loose common pack to refill the box and get it wrapped again. FASC is the only way to guarantee that won't happen.
I think a 1980 cello box is in a whole different level than the mid- to late-'80s stuff that we're seeing huge jumps on.
In general, I wouldn't buy a cello or rack box unless it was FASC just on principle. But with wax boxes in the 1986-factory sealed era, I wouldn't have a problem buying a non-FASC BBCE wrapped box off someone from eBay (assuming I'm paying a proper discount from FASC prices). I have been buying and ripping those boxes for years and don't recall ever getting a box that I felt was deliberately sequenced.
Now, will they probably start getting searched more with card prices jumping? Certainly. But many BBCE boxes are dated as to when they were sealed, as well, so that can be helpful information.
@ReggieCleveland said:
I wouldn't have a problem buying a non-FASC BBCE wrapped box off someone from eBay (assuming I'm paying a proper discount from FASC prices). I have been buying and ripping those boxes for years and don't recall ever getting a box that I felt was deliberately sequenced.
This was essentially the crux of my question to the "gamblers", although my set up and execution was apparently poor.
80s Donruss, straight from the case, is such a crapshoot on collation and centering that I don't believe many people would ever be able to tell any difference between ripping FASC 80s Donruss vs a legitimate source of unopened, non-resealead, non FASC 80s Donruss (even a Frankenstein box, as other than pack pressing, it's difficult to even cherry pick Donruss packs because of the random collation). Yet the premium being paid by rippers for FASC 80s Donruss reflects that they think there is some difference. If these rippers are more into the idea of getting multiple stars for their money, the FASC avenue becomes even more foolish. They could have saved the premium and bought additional product of legitimate, non-FASC Donruss, thus increasing their chances of even more stars during their rip.
80s Fleer is 100 percent the opposite as 80s Donruss, though. I think most people would be able to tell immediately from the collation whether the Fleer box was FASC vs a Frankenstein Fleer box (or a cherry picked box) sourced from somewhere else.
This pack pressing does not seem to be much of an advantage if the card collation of the pack is random. If the last card that is somewhat visible is indicative of a consistent sequence of cards, then it is an extremely valuable tool for pack searching and would make FASC wax boxes the only way to go.
If the card collation is random such as with Donruss, looking for valuable cards pressed against the pack seal would be counterproductive because that card would have wax stains. Those wax stains can be removed safely with nylon to some extent, but that card is not going to be Gem Mint 10.
When BBCE wraps boxes not of their own inventory, what can one be assured of? The box can still be a frankenstein box, right? That is not so much a problem as has been illuminated for random card collation in packs, but for actual fixed sequences, it is a major problem.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
@ReggieCleveland said:
I wouldn't have a problem buying a non-FASC BBCE wrapped box off someone from eBay (assuming I'm paying a proper discount from FASC prices). I have been buying and ripping those boxes for years and don't recall ever getting a box that I felt was deliberately sequenced.
This was essentially the crux of my question to the "gamblers", although my set up and execution was apparently poor.
80s Donruss, straight from the case, is such a crapshoot on collation and centering that I don't believe many people would ever be able to tell any difference between ripping FASC 80s Donruss vs a legitimate source of unopened, non-resealead, non FASC 80s Donruss (even a Frankenstein box, as other than pack pressing, it's difficult to even cherry pick Donruss packs because of the random collation). Yet the premium being paid by rippers for FASC 80s Donruss reflects that they think there is some difference. If these rippers are more into the idea of getting multiple stars for their money, the FASC avenue becomes even more foolish. They could have saved the premium and bought additional product of legitimate, non-FASC Donruss, thus increasing their chances of even more stars during their rip.
80s Fleer is 100 percent the opposite as 80s Donruss, though. I think most people would be able to tell immediately from the collation whether the Fleer box was FASC vs a Frankenstein Fleer box (or a cherry picked box) sourced from somewhere else.
You along with many others are missing the real story. Almost nobody paying premiums for FASC are ripping them.
I’m on the fence here. While I own a bunch of FASC and plain old BBCE, I feel that the premium associated with the former has grown too high. We have covered pack pressing Donruss packs. Is it just as “easy” to do 80s Fleer and Topps?
I have raw boxes so I guess I can check. But wanted peoples thoughts on this.
John
Conundrum - Loving my unopened baseball card collection....but really like ripping too
@ReggieCleveland said:
I wouldn't have a problem buying a non-FASC BBCE wrapped box off someone from eBay (assuming I'm paying a proper discount from FASC prices). I have been buying and ripping those boxes for years and don't recall ever getting a box that I felt was deliberately sequenced.
This was essentially the crux of my question to the "gamblers", although my set up and execution was apparently poor.
80s Donruss, straight from the case, is such a crapshoot on collation and centering that I don't believe many people would ever be able to tell any difference between ripping FASC 80s Donruss vs a legitimate source of unopened, non-resealead, non FASC 80s Donruss (even a Frankenstein box, as other than pack pressing, it's difficult to even cherry pick Donruss packs because of the random collation). Yet the premium being paid by rippers for FASC 80s Donruss reflects that they think there is some difference. If these rippers are more into the idea of getting multiple stars for their money, the FASC avenue becomes even more foolish. They could have saved the premium and bought additional product of legitimate, non-FASC Donruss, thus increasing their chances of even more stars during their rip.
80s Fleer is 100 percent the opposite as 80s Donruss, though. I think most people would be able to tell immediately from the collation whether the Fleer box was FASC vs a Frankenstein Fleer box (or a cherry picked box) sourced from somewhere else.
I agree with your overall premise, I just don't think people paying $1,000+ for a FASC box are ripping them.
@DeutscherGeist said:
If the card collation is random such as with Donruss, looking for valuable cards pressed against the pack seal would be counterproductive because that card would have wax stains. Those wax stains can be removed safely with nylon to some extent, but that card is not going to be Gem Mint 10.
I imagine most pack pressing is done looking for stars/rookies showing on the back of the pack, not looking for a sequence. Those packs are then sent in to be graded with the notation that so-and-so's rookie is showing on the back. Nobody is looking for a star player on the back of a pack and then opening it, for reasons you pointed out.
This will never be opened. At least by me. The box in it’s purest form is why it is going for 1K +. The box is a piece of art in itself and the contents make one think that all of the packs have a centered Mattingly and at the same time none of them do.
@coinspacks said:
i never saw a label without the famous handwriting.
guess its a covid thing
BBCE started using the new labels last month. Nothing to do with Covid, though.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Thank you so much for sharing this because I wanted to see what one looked like. The BBCE seal is what makes it valuable as without it, one does not know if its been searched or a frankenstein box. Is BBCE the only third party that will "certify" a FASC wax box?
I also believe as you do that this box, as it is, is a work or art and a beautiful collectible to display and admire. I have a sealed case of 2008 Bowman Baseball Draft Picks and Prospects that I have no desire to open because it holds its value as is and will only become rarer. A brown box may not be so attractive but it does have its appeal. This was something that practically all major dealers had, but after several years, sealed cases are hard to find, but the individual boxes are available. The item (the sealed case) became rare and the numbers will only go further down as more get opened. I fully understand how some people simply like to collect unopened material.
ReggieCleveland,
Thank you for explaining this. So the pack that reveals a star player or key card in the back is used to send out to be graded and becomes its own valuable commodity that way. I get that. Then it still means that the wax box that had that pack fished out has been deprived of one of its original valuable content and makes a FASC much more desirable. Besides, collectibles that are not tampered with are always preferred.
What about Fleer or another company and year of issue that uses known sequences? A person can look at every pack to see the last card and determine what key card, if any, that pack has. In that way, that wax box can be deprived of all packs of any value and a frankenstein box made that is essentially worthless.
Some wax boxes come factory sealed from a case. I assume those are at much lower risk of any tampering. However, on this very board, I was advised that even in that case there is room for tampering/searching. I did not dive deeper into this as to how there can be any searching done without breaking the factory seal of an individual box. My guess is that there may be a scenario where there is one or two chase cards in every case, so the searchers open one box at a time looking for the chase card and any unopened boxes are simply put back in the case, making it a frankenstein case. That is the only scenario I can think of.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
There was a post earlier in this thread about multiple YouTube videos where a ripper opened BBCE wrapped Donruss boxes, and it was mentioned that it may have even been FASC. The post commented on the poor results.
My comment was that anyone that has ever opened a quantity of 80s Donruss should be familiar with the poor collation. Likewise, Fleer is on the other end of the spectrum as far as even distribution/ collation.
Then subsequent posts mentioned that they prefer the random collation when ripping.
My ENTIRE supposition was that it is foolish to pay the premium for FASC if you're going to rip 80s Donruss. I'm not sure you should even pay for BBCE wrapped Donruss boxes if you're planning to rip, as long as you are comfortable with the source, but whatever. I'm not advocating people to rip FASC. I'm not saying it's even a thing. The entire part of my conversation on this was just the result of a comment about a YouTube video where someone did.
@DeutscherGeist said:
Is BBCE the only third party that will "certify" a FASC wax box?
No, but they're the only third-party whose FASC designation I trust.
What about Fleer or another company and year of issue that uses known sequences? A person can look at every pack to see the last card and determine what key card, if any, that pack has. In that way, that wax box can be deprived of all packs of any value and a frankenstein box made that is essentially worthless.
Yes, this is absolutely possible with Fleer but not 100%. The sequence in a Fleer pack flips with a decent amount of regularity (~15%?). Obviously, the closer you are to the "key" card the better chance that it's in the pack. I would never buy an '87 Fleer cello box unless it was FASC from BBCE.
Some wax boxes come factory sealed from a case. I assume those are at much lower risk of any tampering. However, on this very board, I was advised that even in that case there is room for tampering/searching. I did not dive deeper into this as to how there can be any searching done without breaking the factory seal of an individual box. My guess is that there may be a scenario where there is one or two chase cards in every case, so the searchers open one box at a time looking for the chase card and any unopened boxes are simply put back in the case, making it a frankenstein case. That is the only scenario I can think of.
Pretty much. A good example would be Heritage baseball. I think you get 2 or 3 autos out of every 12-box hobby case. So if someone cracks a case and then sits down and starts ripping, they might hit the autos after only 6 boxes and can then sell the other 6 boxes for retail price knowing that their isn't going to be an auto in there. This is why I only buy modern boxes from a place like Blowout. They just crack cases and pull boxes to ship out, no funny business.
84 Donruss brings back some memories. One of the first boxes my Dad & Mom bought for me. May 84. No Mattingly, no Strawberry. 3 Joe Carters, a Van Slyke. 2 James. The big deal for me was getting Lance Parrish reg & dk . Happy hunting fellas I'm long out of buying unopened.
. Is BBCE the only third party that will "certify" a FASC wax box?
Kurt from Ripping Vintage Packs is another that wraps FASC product. He does ONLY FASC though ... and specializes more in the junk era. Great looking wrap too. Plus, each box comes with a BOX CODE that ties in with the actual case it came from. so you can go to the RVP website and view the actual CASE with all the boxes just after wrapping. I trust him just as much as I do Steve Hart at BBCE. Both Steve and Kurt are amazing people in our hobby with outstanding service and commitment to integrity.
Here is a RVP wrapped box with case code sticker on the back. Kurt’s handwriting is a little rough lol but all good.
As always, thank you for your response. I have bought from BlowOut too. I knew for Topps Heritage that buying the whole case would ensure that there was no searching going on in the scenario you described. I have grown to buying cases over boxes for new issue sports cards as its erases any doubt to originality, searching and even freshness. However, if I wanted a 1984 Donruss wax box, I would just get one box with the BBCE FASC seal. Cases are going to be way too expensive at this point.
Softparade,
Thank you for sharing that scan! I like the 1987 Donruss issue as well. I was hesitant in purchasing wax boxes that were not factory sealed, but now I see what BBCE and RVP do and I may consider getting a 80s or 90s wax box.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
Got 4 78 trays before they sold out. There were 16 in stock and a;ll sold within an hour.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@grote15 said:
Got 4 78 trays before they sold out. There were 16 in stock and a;ll sold within an hour.
Well I’m a hypocrite because if I saw those I’d have bought one. What was the price if you don’t mind?
$300
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
On Friday afternoon BBCE uploaded a ton of GPK packs and boxes at really good prices. I picked up several of each of the packs they offered to add to my pack collection. I bet you won't see another group like that is a really long time.
@Klif50 said:
On Friday afternoon BBCE uploaded a ton of GPK packs and boxes at really good prices. I picked up several of each of the packs they offered to add to my pack collection. I bet you won't see another group like that is a really long time.
@Klif50 said:
On Friday afternoon BBCE uploaded a ton of GPK packs and boxes at really good prices. I picked up several of each of the packs they offered to add to my pack collection. I bet you won't see another group like that is a really long time.
85 series 1? if so, price points?
Didn't see any Series 1 boxes or prices. If you got to their website and search on GPK it'll bring up the whole list.
@Klif50 said:
On Friday afternoon BBCE uploaded a ton of GPK packs and boxes at really good prices. I picked up several of each of the packs they offered to add to my pack collection. I bet you won't see another group like that is a really long time.
85 series 1? if so, price points?
I followed the listings. There were no Series 1. They had boxes of every other series and packs from most series. Series 2 boxes were listed for $3,200, while the other series varied between like $175 and $950, depending if they were X-out boxes, or FASC. I believe the Series 15 were FASC and were in the $900 to $950 range, which was the highest outside of Series 2.
@NJ80sBBC said:
I’m on the fence here. While I own a bunch of FASC and plain old BBCE, I feel that the premium associated with the former has grown too high. We have covered pack pressing Donruss packs. Is it just as “easy” to do 80s Fleer and Topps?
I have raw boxes so I guess I can check. But wanted peoples thoughts on this.
John
I have been buying a bunch of 80s nostalgia boxes for my office display and I'm with this; I feel good buying from BBCE and don't like spending the premium for the FASC distinction. If that's all they have in stock of something I want, I'll bite the bullet if it's not too crazy a price hike.
Just received back from PSA. Out of 40 packs (1977 and 78) 3 graded 7 .all the rest were labeled " altered".What does that mean. All were from the same dealer over a 3 year period a few packs at a time. The sender of my cards also received 30 packs from the same years that also all were "altered". Just dont understand. lots of money gone.( and time waiting)
An e bay dealer sent my packs and his packs to PSA in Oct. We bought our packs from two different sellers. Both sellers are good guys, but I dont know where they got them. Will find out though.
@1959 said:
An e bay dealer sent my packs and his packs to PSA in Oct. We bought our packs from two different sellers. Both sellers are good guys, but I dont know where they got them. Will find out though.
@1959 said:
Just received back from PSA. Out of 40 packs (1977 and 78) 3 graded 7 .all the rest were labeled " altered".What does that mean. All were from the same dealer over a 3 year period a few packs at a time. The sender of my cards also received 30 packs from the same years that also all were "altered". Just dont understand. lots of money gone.( and time waiting)
Not sure why you posted this in the BBCE reload thread, I’m guessing they didn’t come from BBCE based upon my experiences?
Sorry to hear about your loss but great lesson to share with the forum though on a couple points that we should all be cautious of to limit our downside especially in these times of escaliating prices for both packs and the pack grading fees.
I'm sure this has been explained before, so forgive me for missing it. But, what does the (Non X-Out) mean ?
1981 Topps Baseball Unopened Wax Box (BBCE) (Non X-Out)
I cannot hit curveball. Straightball I hit it very much. Curveball, bats are afraid. Collecting: post world war II HOF rookie 76 topps gem mint 10 commons 9 stars Arenado purple refractors(Rockies) Red (Cardinals) successful deals with Keevan, Grote15, 1954, mbogoman
@76collector said:
I'm sure this has been explained before, so forgive me for missing it. But, what does the (Non X-Out) mean ?
1981 Topps Baseball Unopened Wax Box (BBCE) (Non X-Out)
When a retailer would return unsold merchandise to Topps (possibly other companies), Topps would refund them at a certain rate. It would then resell the merchandise as "factory seconds", sometimes combining packs to make a full box. Since Topps didn't want the discounted merchandise returned at full price, it drew a big black X on the boxes before it resold it.
@1959 said:
Just received back from PSA. Out of 40 packs (1977 and 78) 3 graded 7 .all the rest were labeled " altered".What does that mean. All were from the same dealer over a 3 year period a few packs at a time. The sender of my cards also received 30 packs from the same years that also all were "altered". Just dont understand. lots of money gone.( and time waiting)
What was the seller's name? Buying raw vintage wax on ebay is like navigating a virtual minefield. Anything 1980 and earlier is especially risky unless it's from a rock solid source like BBCE or Fritsch.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Comments
😂
I bought into FASC early on in my unopened endeavors as you know Tim. AS a matter of fact, if a 1980 and LATER box is not FASC I won't touch it. End of story. That's just me though. God Bless America. However, I would amend that behavior for anything 1979 on down since FASC product in those years are f'ing unicorns
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I think a 1980 cello box is in a whole different level than the mid- to late-'80s stuff that we're seeing huge jumps on.
In general, I wouldn't buy a cello or rack box unless it was FASC just on principle. But with wax boxes in the 1986-factory sealed era, I wouldn't have a problem buying a non-FASC BBCE wrapped box off someone from eBay (assuming I'm paying a proper discount from FASC prices). I have been buying and ripping those boxes for years and don't recall ever getting a box that I felt was deliberately sequenced.
Now, will they probably start getting searched more with card prices jumping? Certainly. But many BBCE boxes are dated as to when they were sealed, as well, so that can be helpful information.
Arthur
This was essentially the crux of my question to the "gamblers", although my set up and execution was apparently poor.
80s Donruss, straight from the case, is such a crapshoot on collation and centering that I don't believe many people would ever be able to tell any difference between ripping FASC 80s Donruss vs a legitimate source of unopened, non-resealead, non FASC 80s Donruss (even a Frankenstein box, as other than pack pressing, it's difficult to even cherry pick Donruss packs because of the random collation). Yet the premium being paid by rippers for FASC 80s Donruss reflects that they think there is some difference. If these rippers are more into the idea of getting multiple stars for their money, the FASC avenue becomes even more foolish. They could have saved the premium and bought additional product of legitimate, non-FASC Donruss, thus increasing their chances of even more stars during their rip.
80s Fleer is 100 percent the opposite as 80s Donruss, though. I think most people would be able to tell immediately from the collation whether the Fleer box was FASC vs a Frankenstein Fleer box (or a cherry picked box) sourced from somewhere else.
This pack pressing does not seem to be much of an advantage if the card collation of the pack is random. If the last card that is somewhat visible is indicative of a consistent sequence of cards, then it is an extremely valuable tool for pack searching and would make FASC wax boxes the only way to go.
If the card collation is random such as with Donruss, looking for valuable cards pressed against the pack seal would be counterproductive because that card would have wax stains. Those wax stains can be removed safely with nylon to some extent, but that card is not going to be Gem Mint 10.
When BBCE wraps boxes not of their own inventory, what can one be assured of? The box can still be a frankenstein box, right? That is not so much a problem as has been illuminated for random card collation in packs, but for actual fixed sequences, it is a major problem.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
You along with many others are missing the real story. Almost nobody paying premiums for FASC are ripping them.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I’m on the fence here. While I own a bunch of FASC and plain old BBCE, I feel that the premium associated with the former has grown too high. We have covered pack pressing Donruss packs. Is it just as “easy” to do 80s Fleer and Topps?
I have raw boxes so I guess I can check. But wanted peoples thoughts on this.
John
I agree with your overall premise, I just don't think people paying $1,000+ for a FASC box are ripping them.
I imagine most pack pressing is done looking for stars/rookies showing on the back of the pack, not looking for a sequence. Those packs are then sent in to be graded with the notation that so-and-so's rookie is showing on the back. Nobody is looking for a star player on the back of a pack and then opening it, for reasons you pointed out.
Arthur
This will never be opened. At least by me. The box in it’s purest form is why it is going for 1K +. The box is a piece of art in itself and the contents make one think that all of the packs have a centered Mattingly and at the same time none of them do.
i never saw a label without the famous handwriting.
guess its a covid thing
BBCE started using the new labels last month. Nothing to do with Covid, though.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Yeah, I think I got one of the first new labeled boxes last month. Nobody had mentioned them at that point. Agree, not a Covid change.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I also purchased an 84 Donruss FASC from BBCE when it was reloaded for $925. It will never be opened by me.
Dan89,
Thank you so much for sharing this because I wanted to see what one looked like. The BBCE seal is what makes it valuable as without it, one does not know if its been searched or a frankenstein box. Is BBCE the only third party that will "certify" a FASC wax box?
I also believe as you do that this box, as it is, is a work or art and a beautiful collectible to display and admire. I have a sealed case of 2008 Bowman Baseball Draft Picks and Prospects that I have no desire to open because it holds its value as is and will only become rarer. A brown box may not be so attractive but it does have its appeal. This was something that practically all major dealers had, but after several years, sealed cases are hard to find, but the individual boxes are available. The item (the sealed case) became rare and the numbers will only go further down as more get opened. I fully understand how some people simply like to collect unopened material.
ReggieCleveland,
Thank you for explaining this. So the pack that reveals a star player or key card in the back is used to send out to be graded and becomes its own valuable commodity that way. I get that. Then it still means that the wax box that had that pack fished out has been deprived of one of its original valuable content and makes a FASC much more desirable. Besides, collectibles that are not tampered with are always preferred.
What about Fleer or another company and year of issue that uses known sequences? A person can look at every pack to see the last card and determine what key card, if any, that pack has. In that way, that wax box can be deprived of all packs of any value and a frankenstein box made that is essentially worthless.
Some wax boxes come factory sealed from a case. I assume those are at much lower risk of any tampering. However, on this very board, I was advised that even in that case there is room for tampering/searching. I did not dive deeper into this as to how there can be any searching done without breaking the factory seal of an individual box. My guess is that there may be a scenario where there is one or two chase cards in every case, so the searchers open one box at a time looking for the chase card and any unopened boxes are simply put back in the case, making it a frankenstein case. That is the only scenario I can think of.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
I keep going with all the '83 Donruss instead. The last few times theyve reloaded actually.
No Brainer, imo. Stacked with actual HOF rookies and 1/3 the cost.
I'm not sure how this all went off the rails.
There was a post earlier in this thread about multiple YouTube videos where a ripper opened BBCE wrapped Donruss boxes, and it was mentioned that it may have even been FASC. The post commented on the poor results.
My comment was that anyone that has ever opened a quantity of 80s Donruss should be familiar with the poor collation. Likewise, Fleer is on the other end of the spectrum as far as even distribution/ collation.
Then subsequent posts mentioned that they prefer the random collation when ripping.
My ENTIRE supposition was that it is foolish to pay the premium for FASC if you're going to rip 80s Donruss. I'm not sure you should even pay for BBCE wrapped Donruss boxes if you're planning to rip, as long as you are comfortable with the source, but whatever. I'm not advocating people to rip FASC. I'm not saying it's even a thing. The entire part of my conversation on this was just the result of a comment about a YouTube video where someone did.
Carry on.
Ok. And will do.
No, but they're the only third-party whose FASC designation I trust.
Yes, this is absolutely possible with Fleer but not 100%. The sequence in a Fleer pack flips with a decent amount of regularity (~15%?). Obviously, the closer you are to the "key" card the better chance that it's in the pack. I would never buy an '87 Fleer cello box unless it was FASC from BBCE.
Pretty much. A good example would be Heritage baseball. I think you get 2 or 3 autos out of every 12-box hobby case. So if someone cracks a case and then sits down and starts ripping, they might hit the autos after only 6 boxes and can then sell the other 6 boxes for retail price knowing that their isn't going to be an auto in there. This is why I only buy modern boxes from a place like Blowout. They just crack cases and pull boxes to ship out, no funny business.
Arthur
84 Donruss brings back some memories. One of the first boxes my Dad & Mom bought for me. May 84. No Mattingly, no Strawberry. 3 Joe Carters, a Van Slyke. 2 James. The big deal for me was getting Lance Parrish reg & dk . Happy hunting fellas I'm long out of buying unopened.
. Is BBCE the only third party that will "certify" a FASC wax box?
Kurt from Ripping Vintage Packs is another that wraps FASC product. He does ONLY FASC though ... and specializes more in the junk era. Great looking wrap too. Plus, each box comes with a BOX CODE that ties in with the actual case it came from. so you can go to the RVP website and view the actual CASE with all the boxes just after wrapping. I trust him just as much as I do Steve Hart at BBCE. Both Steve and Kurt are amazing people in our hobby with outstanding service and commitment to integrity.
Here is a RVP wrapped box with case code sticker on the back. Kurt’s handwriting is a little rough lol but all good.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
THAT'S a sweet haul Good Lord
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
ReggieCleveland,
As always, thank you for your response. I have bought from BlowOut too. I knew for Topps Heritage that buying the whole case would ensure that there was no searching going on in the scenario you described. I have grown to buying cases over boxes for new issue sports cards as its erases any doubt to originality, searching and even freshness. However, if I wanted a 1984 Donruss wax box, I would just get one box with the BBCE FASC seal. Cases are going to be way too expensive at this point.
Softparade,
Thank you for sharing that scan! I like the 1987 Donruss issue as well. I was hesitant in purchasing wax boxes that were not factory sealed, but now I see what BBCE and RVP do and I may consider getting a 80s or 90s wax box.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Should see the pics of what else is in this guys storage containers and the previous hauls that tim got. It's crazy.
I will use this thread for its intended purpose and point out reload part 4, the new hope. Have at it. I’m out with these prices.
ETA: and this is not a knock on Steve. He needs to strike while the iron is hot and not let eBay listings go for more than what he offers.
Got 4 78 trays before they sold out. There were 16 in stock and a;ll sold within an hour.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Well I’m a hypocrite because if I saw those I’d have bought one. What was the price if you don’t mind?
$300
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Dammit!
Not a bad price! Sorry I missed them. But happy you hit them GROTE!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
On Friday afternoon BBCE uploaded a ton of GPK packs and boxes at really good prices. I picked up several of each of the packs they offered to add to my pack collection. I bet you won't see another group like that is a really long time.
Anyone know the story of the 1975 Topps Football Cello Case that Steve broke in July 2013? Was it a Fritsch case?
85 series 1? if so, price points?
Didn't see any Series 1 boxes or prices. If you got to their website and search on GPK it'll bring up the whole list.
I followed the listings. There were no Series 1. They had boxes of every other series and packs from most series. Series 2 boxes were listed for $3,200, while the other series varied between like $175 and $950, depending if they were X-out boxes, or FASC. I believe the Series 15 were FASC and were in the $900 to $950 range, which was the highest outside of Series 2.
I have been buying a bunch of 80s nostalgia boxes for my office display and I'm with this; I feel good buying from BBCE and don't like spending the premium for the FASC distinction. If that's all they have in stock of something I want, I'll bite the bullet if it's not too crazy a price hike.
Instagram: mattyc_collection
New stuff added today !
Just received back from PSA. Out of 40 packs (1977 and 78) 3 graded 7 .all the rest were labeled " altered".What does that mean. All were from the same dealer over a 3 year period a few packs at a time. The sender of my cards also received 30 packs from the same years that also all were "altered". Just dont understand. lots of money gone.( and time waiting)
Altered means opened and resealed. Was it an eBay dealer?
New prices too!
An e bay dealer sent my packs and his packs to PSA in Oct. We bought our packs from two different sellers. Both sellers are good guys, but I dont know where they got them. Will find out though.
The 1980 BB wax box didn't last long. Someone grabbed it pretty quick.
I have my doubts based on those results.
Not sure why you posted this in the BBCE reload thread, I’m guessing they didn’t come from BBCE based upon my experiences?
Sorry to hear about your loss but great lesson to share with the forum though on a couple points that we should all be cautious of to limit our downside especially in these times of escaliating prices for both packs and the pack grading fees.
Join the Rookie stars on top PSA registry today:
1980-1989 Cello Packs - Rookies
I'm sure this has been explained before, so forgive me for missing it. But, what does the (Non X-Out) mean ?
1981 Topps Baseball Unopened Wax Box (BBCE) (Non X-Out)
Collecting:
post world war II HOF rookie
76 topps gem mint 10 commons 9 stars
Arenado purple refractors(Rockies) Red (Cardinals)
successful deals with Keevan, Grote15, 1954, mbogoman
I know plenty of "good guys" lost n the business aspects of the pre-2000's. Just saying. That's not a dig at anyone.
Remind me someone if they have "tray wraps" at BBCE?? Seeing RTimmers post just reminded me to start wrapping all my Clemens racks related stuff.
And anyone know ndleos answer as I have 1 of those boxes as well.
Jeff
When a retailer would return unsold merchandise to Topps (possibly other companies), Topps would refund them at a certain rate. It would then resell the merchandise as "factory seconds", sometimes combining packs to make a full box. Since Topps didn't want the discounted merchandise returned at full price, it drew a big black X on the boxes before it resold it.
What was the seller's name? Buying raw vintage wax on ebay is like navigating a virtual minefield. Anything 1980 and earlier is especially risky unless it's from a rock solid source like BBCE or Fritsch.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
They don’t...I sent my usual assortment of Clemens and Shaq racks there last month and they were out and haven’t gotten replenished yet.
Join the Rookie stars on top PSA registry today:
1980-1989 Cello Packs - Rookies