@Scocs said:
Amazing to witness what’s going on with 1984 Donruss Baseball BBCE FASC wax boxes over the past month or two. If I’m not mistaken, they’ve gone from $700+ to $900+ to now $1100+ on the BBCE website each time they’ve listed them....and that’s still cheaper than what they’ve sold for on eBay. Crazy!!
The new vintage? Everything old is new again. All these price rises stands to reason. When vintage-vintage prices get so high most can't afford it, so in a natural progression the speculators look elsewhere and begin to drive those prices higher. Rinse and repeat as the years go rolling by.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
Boy, the crisser sure missed the boat on the unopened call...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I have now watched three YouTube videos of 1984 Donruss wax boxes being opened. All were BBCE authenticated and sealed; one might have been FASC, it’s not clear.
One box had zero Mattingly or Strawberry rookie cards
One box had zero Mattingly and two Strawberry cards.
One box had one Mattingly and two Strawberry cards.
Really fun but brutal to watch. There were lots of nice HOFers with solid centering, and with 660 cards in the set, your chances of getting the cards you want are much higher than a 792-card Topps set.....but still. What a crapshoot!
In my experience, Donruss has always had the most randomized (worst)collation, with Fleer being the most consistent (best). You can get multiples of the same card in a Donruss pack often enough that you don't even find it odd any more. Rarely do you even pull duplicates out of an entire Fleer box.
@countdouglas said:
In my experience, Donruss has always had the most randomized (worst)collation, with Fleer being the most consistent (best). You can get multiples of the same card in a Donruss pack often enough that you don't even find it odd any more. Rarely do you even pull duplicates out of an entire Fleer box.
Agree. I opened two boxes each of 81-83 Fleer a few years ago and got at least one of every card and no more than two. Donruss was terrible.
Can't this distribution also work in your favor, though? I dunno - when I get an unopened box to rip, part of it is for that gamble. If I wanted one of every card I'd get a factory set.
IMO, 1984 Donruss is as key to the 80’s as 1975 Topps is to the 70’s...both colorful, popular sets. Look at prices for 75 Topps unopened...enough said.
Duplicates can be a great thing if you’re looking for an 84D box with three Mattinglys in it!
Still, amazing how at one time we were talking about both Mattingly AND Strawberry as sure-fire Hall of Famers. Imagine how much a box would be worth if that had been the case?!
@thehallmark said:
Can't this distribution also work in your favor, though? I dunno - when I get an unopened box to rip, part of it is for that gamble. If I wanted one of every card I'd get a factory set.
I completely agree with you. I'm really surprised unopened factory sets aren't seeing the drive in price. There is still the thrill of the hunt for a PSA 10 and you are even guaranteed the key cards. But again, wax is what everyone wants.
I completely agree with you. I'm really surprised unopened factory sets aren't seeing the drive in price. There is still the thrill of the hunt for a PSA 10 and you are even guaranteed the key cards. But again, wax is what everyone wants.
I doubt anyone is opening these boxes at these prices.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I'm just thankful that I don't like 84 Donruss! (whew!) The big question is, when everyone has spent their Corona checks, and sports open back up (maybe not this year, but even next year) and folks have a lot more avenues to spend their discretionary income, do prices slack back off? If my entertainment budget is $500 a month and I have concerts, and sports, and eating out, and movies to choose from, my baseball card budget is lots smaller. But if I don't have those options, BBC it is! I think that there are a lot of guys who have bought for nostalgia and to have fun during the quarantine. When things cycle back to normal, those folks will either all try to sell (because they quickly lost interest) or hold because slacking prices made their purchases not look like such a good deal. I would also guess that the huge price run up on things like 1983 (all three brands) and 1985 has resulted in lots of transactions, but not a lot of ripping. On the other hand, I suspect that there has been an absolutely epic amount of ripping of 87 Topps and Donruss, 89 Donruss, and 89 Upper Deck in the last few months. Probably more than at any time since those issues were printed.
Just my 2 cents.
kevin
I know we're all supposed to keep facing forward, avoiding eye contact and just continue to beat it, but I'm going to go ahead and say it -- the '84 Donruss legend is built on sand and water.
Now, I wasn't around back then to experience first-hand the whys of the Donruss Mattingly becoming king of the mountain (I missed it by 2 years or so) but for as long as I've been collecting there's been the famous urban legend about "1984 Donruss was short printed!"
That is, of course, a giant load of baloney. There was more '84 Donruss produced than any year prior. They sold so much '84 Donruss that it gave them the confidence to branch out and enter the Canadian market in 1985.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on the set. It's a really nice set with a great design but everything about its demand comes from the Mattingly craze in the '80s and the belief that it was short-printed.
Alas, when the legend becomes fact, print the legend.
@ReggieCleveland said:
I know we're all supposed to keep facing forward, avoiding eye contact and just continue to beat it, but I'm going to go ahead and say it -- the '84 Donruss legend is built on sand and water.
Now, I wasn't around back then to experience first-hand the whys of the Donruss Mattingly becoming king of the mountain (I missed it by 2 years or so) but for as long as I've been collecting there's been the famous urban legend about "1984 Donruss was short printed!"
That is, of course, a giant load of baloney. There was more '84 Donruss produced than any year prior. They sold so much '84 Donruss that it gave them the confidence to branch out and enter the Canadian market in 1985.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on the set. It's a really nice set with a great design but everything about its demand comes from the Mattingly craze in the '80s and the belief that it was short-printed.
Alas, when the legend becomes fact, print the legend.
Arthur
Vigorously disagree. 1984 Donruss is the iconic Donruss issue of the 1980's and arguably the iconic issue off all the brands of the decade aside from 1980 Topps. It's certainly in the discussion. I don't want to piss on Fleer. Great stuff from them too. While we have seen much more FASC surface during the past two months than really ever before it's got NOTHING on say 1990 Fleer basketball. That stuff is coming out of every nook and cranny all over the place and is something that you can tell had a gigantic print run. '84 Donruss FASC even with these crazy prices is still just being leaked out a bit at a time. If it was THAT prevalent the stuff would be flooding the market like '90 Fleer BB. Your opinion that the issue is built on top of sand & water will prove to be Crisser level fail for you
@ReggieCleveland said:
I know we're all supposed to keep facing forward, avoiding eye contact and just continue to beat it, but I'm going to go ahead and say it -- the '84 Donruss legend is built on sand and water.
Now, I wasn't around back then to experience first-hand the whys of the Donruss Mattingly becoming king of the mountain (I missed it by 2 years or so) but for as long as I've been collecting there's been the famous urban legend about "1984 Donruss was short printed!"
That is, of course, a giant load of baloney. There was more '84 Donruss produced than any year prior. They sold so much '84 Donruss that it gave them the confidence to branch out and enter the Canadian market in 1985.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on the set. It's a really nice set with a great design but everything about its demand comes from the Mattingly craze in the '80s and the belief that it was short-printed.
Alas, when the legend becomes fact, print the legend.
Arthur
Vigorously disagree. 1984 Donruss is the iconic Donruss issue of the 1980's and arguably the iconic issue off all the brands of the decade aside from 1980 Topps. It's certainly in the discussion. I don't want to piss on Fleer. Great stuff from them too. While we have seen much more FASC surface during the past two months than really ever before it's got NOTHING on say 1990 Fleer basketball. That stuff is coming out of every nook and cranny all over the place and is something that you can tell had a gigantic print run. '84 Donruss FASC even with these crazy prices is still just being leaked out a bit at a time. If it was THAT prevalent the stuff would be flooding the market like '90 Fleer BB. Your opinion that the issue is built on top of sand & water will prove to be Crisser level fail for you
Who compared it to '90 Fleer basketball? I never said there were warehouses of the product sitting somewhere, I said it wasn't short-printed. They made more 1984 Donruss than they they did 1983.
The urban legend that it was short-printed is BS. How you go from that to comparing it to '90 Fleer basketball I have no idea. Is there less '84 Donruss than '85? Absolutely. Was '84 Donruss some print run anomaly that makes it extraordinarily rarer than the trajectory of baseball cards at that time? No.
@ReggieCleveland said:
I know we're all supposed to keep facing forward, avoiding eye contact and just continue to beat it, but I'm going to go ahead and say it -- the '84 Donruss legend is built on sand and water.
Now, I wasn't around back then to experience first-hand the whys of the Donruss Mattingly becoming king of the mountain (I missed it by 2 years or so) but for as long as I've been collecting there's been the famous urban legend about "1984 Donruss was short printed!"
That is, of course, a giant load of baloney. There was more '84 Donruss produced than any year prior. They sold so much '84 Donruss that it gave them the confidence to branch out and enter the Canadian market in 1985.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on the set. It's a really nice set with a great design but everything about its demand comes from the Mattingly craze in the '80s and the belief that it was short-printed.
Alas, when the legend becomes fact, print the legend.
Arthur
Vigorously disagree. 1984 Donruss is the iconic Donruss issue of the 1980's and arguably the iconic issue off all the brands of the decade aside from 1980 Topps. It's certainly in the discussion. I don't want to piss on Fleer. Great stuff from them too. While we have seen much more FASC surface during the past two months than really ever before it's got NOTHING on say 1990 Fleer basketball. That stuff is coming out of every nook and cranny all over the place and is something that you can tell had a gigantic print run. '84 Donruss FASC even with these crazy prices is still just being leaked out a bit at a time. If it was THAT prevalent the stuff would be flooding the market like '90 Fleer BB. Your opinion that the issue is built on top of sand & water will prove to be Crisser level fail for you
Who compared it to '90 Fleer basketball? I never said there were warehouses of the product sitting somewhere, I said it wasn't short-printed. They made more 1984 Donruss than they they did 1983.
The urban legend that it was short-printed is BS. How you go from that to comparing it to '90 Fleer basketball I have no idea. Is there less '84 Donruss than '85? Absolutely. Was '84 Donruss some print run anomaly that makes it extraordinarily rarer than the trajectory of baseball cards at that time? No.
Arthur
I used '90 Fleer BB as just an example of something that's ACTUALLY over printed and it's obvious because its all over the place on say e-bay. '84 Donruss isn't all over the place. Good luck with your sand and water analysis on '84 D
@ReggieCleveland said:
I know we're all supposed to keep facing forward, avoiding eye contact and just continue to beat it, but I'm going to go ahead and say it -- the '84 Donruss legend is built on sand and water.
Now, I wasn't around back then to experience first-hand the whys of the Donruss Mattingly becoming king of the mountain (I missed it by 2 years or so) but for as long as I've been collecting there's been the famous urban legend about "1984 Donruss was short printed!"
That is, of course, a giant load of baloney. There was more '84 Donruss produced than any year prior. They sold so much '84 Donruss that it gave them the confidence to branch out and enter the Canadian market in 1985.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on the set. It's a really nice set with a great design but everything about its demand comes from the Mattingly craze in the '80s and the belief that it was short-printed.
Alas, when the legend becomes fact, print the legend.
Arthur
Vigorously disagree. 1984 Donruss is the iconic Donruss issue of the 1980's and arguably the iconic issue off all the brands of the decade aside from 1980 Topps. It's certainly in the discussion. I don't want to piss on Fleer. Great stuff from them too. While we have seen much more FASC surface during the past two months than really ever before it's got NOTHING on say 1990 Fleer basketball. That stuff is coming out of every nook and cranny all over the place and is something that you can tell had a gigantic print run. '84 Donruss FASC even with these crazy prices is still just being leaked out a bit at a time. If it was THAT prevalent the stuff would be flooding the market like '90 Fleer BB. Your opinion that the issue is built on top of sand & water will prove to be Crisser level fail for you
Who compared it to '90 Fleer basketball? I never said there were warehouses of the product sitting somewhere, I said it wasn't short-printed. They made more 1984 Donruss than they they did 1983.
The urban legend that it was short-printed is BS. How you go from that to comparing it to '90 Fleer basketball I have no idea. Is there less '84 Donruss than '85? Absolutely. Was '84 Donruss some print run anomaly that makes it extraordinarily rarer than the trajectory of baseball cards at that time? No.
Arthur
I used '90 Fleer BB as just an example of something that's ACTUALLY over printed and it's obvious because its all over the place on say e-bay. '84 Donruss isn't all over the place. Good luck with your sand and water analysis on '84 D
What.... THE HELL.... are you talking about!?!?
Did you even read what I wrote? If so, did you understand it?
an example of something that's ACTUALLY over printed
You're implying that something prior to that was described as "over printed." When did that happen? By who? It wasn't me. I said it isn't short-printed. There's a spectrum, you understand that, right? It's not just all or nothing. Are you going to be able to understand what I'm writing right now? I feel like I'm having a conversation with someone that's getting 20% of what I'm saying.
Good luck with your sand and water analysis on '84 D
Why do I need luck? I wasn't making a prediction or forecasting its future. I never made a comment to the effect that the prices will crash or even come down. Like I said, when the legend becomes fact, print the legend. Do you understand the reference? It means it doesn't matter that it isn't short-printed, the idea is too far ingrained in the hobby to reverse.
Holy smokes. Please read this post a few times and make sure you understand what I'm saying before you respond, for our sake and the sake of the people that read this thread.
@ReggieCleveland said:
I know we're all supposed to keep facing forward, avoiding eye contact and just continue to beat it, but I'm going to go ahead and say it -- the '84 Donruss legend is built on sand and water.
Now, I wasn't around back then to experience first-hand the whys of the Donruss Mattingly becoming king of the mountain (I missed it by 2 years or so) but for as long as I've been collecting there's been the famous urban legend about "1984 Donruss was short printed!"
That is, of course, a giant load of baloney. There was more '84 Donruss produced than any year prior. They sold so much '84 Donruss that it gave them the confidence to branch out and enter the Canadian market in 1985.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on the set. It's a really nice set with a great design but everything about its demand comes from the Mattingly craze in the '80s and the belief that it was short-printed.
Alas, when the legend becomes fact, print the legend.
Arthur
Vigorously disagree. 1984 Donruss is the iconic Donruss issue of the 1980's and arguably the iconic issue off all the brands of the decade aside from 1980 Topps. It's certainly in the discussion. I don't want to piss on Fleer. Great stuff from them too. While we have seen much more FASC surface during the past two months than really ever before it's got NOTHING on say 1990 Fleer basketball. That stuff is coming out of every nook and cranny all over the place and is something that you can tell had a gigantic print run. '84 Donruss FASC even with these crazy prices is still just being leaked out a bit at a time. If it was THAT prevalent the stuff would be flooding the market like '90 Fleer BB. Your opinion that the issue is built on top of sand & water will prove to be Crisser level fail for you
Who compared it to '90 Fleer basketball? I never said there were warehouses of the product sitting somewhere, I said it wasn't short-printed. They made more 1984 Donruss than they they did 1983.
The urban legend that it was short-printed is BS. How you go from that to comparing it to '90 Fleer basketball I have no idea. Is there less '84 Donruss than '85? Absolutely. Was '84 Donruss some print run anomaly that makes it extraordinarily rarer than the trajectory of baseball cards at that time? No.
Arthur
I used '90 Fleer BB as just an example of something that's ACTUALLY over printed and it's obvious because its all over the place on say e-bay. '84 Donruss isn't all over the place. Good luck with your sand and water analysis on '84 D
Imagine that, COVID-19 hits, many businesses slow down or are unable to operate, but BBCE sees this crazy surge in demand and are trying to just meet that demand while also taking social distancing measures.
Does FASC mean From A Sealed Case?
What does BBCE do for hobby/retail box authentication?
I can imagine how suspicious collectors would feel buying a random hobby or retail box of 1984 Donruss. Who knows what tampering took place during all those years. If it is fresh from a case, it puts so many worries and concerns to rest.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
@ReggieCleveland said:
I know we're all supposed to keep facing forward, avoiding eye contact and just continue to beat it, but I'm going to go ahead and say it -- the '84 Donruss legend is built on sand and water.
Now, I wasn't around back then to experience first-hand the whys of the Donruss Mattingly becoming king of the mountain (I missed it by 2 years or so) but for as long as I've been collecting there's been the famous urban legend about "1984 Donruss was short printed!"
That is, of course, a giant load of baloney. There was more '84 Donruss produced than any year prior. They sold so much '84 Donruss that it gave them the confidence to branch out and enter the Canadian market in 1985.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on the set. It's a really nice set with a great design but everything about its demand comes from the Mattingly craze in the '80s and the belief that it was short-printed.
Alas, when the legend becomes fact, print the legend.
Arthur
Vigorously disagree. 1984 Donruss is the iconic Donruss issue of the 1980's and arguably the iconic issue off all the brands of the decade aside from 1980 Topps. It's certainly in the discussion. I don't want to piss on Fleer. Great stuff from them too. While we have seen much more FASC surface during the past two months than really ever before it's got NOTHING on say 1990 Fleer basketball. That stuff is coming out of every nook and cranny all over the place and is something that you can tell had a gigantic print run. '84 Donruss FASC even with these crazy prices is still just being leaked out a bit at a time. If it was THAT prevalent the stuff would be flooding the market like '90 Fleer BB. Your opinion that the issue is built on top of sand & water will prove to be Crisser level fail for you
Who compared it to '90 Fleer basketball? I never said there were warehouses of the product sitting somewhere, I said it wasn't short-printed. They made more 1984 Donruss than they they did 1983.
The urban legend that it was short-printed is BS. How you go from that to comparing it to '90 Fleer basketball I have no idea. Is there less '84 Donruss than '85? Absolutely. Was '84 Donruss some print run anomaly that makes it extraordinarily rarer than the trajectory of baseball cards at that time? No.
Arthur
I used '90 Fleer BB as just an example of something that's ACTUALLY over printed and it's obvious because its all over the place on say e-bay. '84 Donruss isn't all over the place. Good luck with your sand and water analysis on '84 D
Soft parade,
Best to just laugh at and move on, trust me.
I'm laughing for sure I guess The Crisser reference set him off. It was tongue in cheek. Everything else was mundane. What Evs
@thehallmark said:
Can't this distribution also work in your favor, though? I dunno - when I get an unopened box to rip, part of it is for that gamble. If I wanted one of every card I'd get a factory set.
I believe most people that have opened a quantity of Donruss product across all years would agree that their collation is horrible. It is not uncommon to get multiple duplicates within the same pack and 4, 5, 6 or more of individual cards throughout an entire box. That can indeed work both ways. It's a great box when there are multiples of the best cards, and not so much when they're all a bunch of nobodies.
Ok, now that we've established that, I have a legitimate question. Why would anyone ever pay the FASC premium for a Donruss wax box over just a regular BBCE authenticated wax box or even just a Frankenstein lot of legitimate packs? You have no idea what you're getting from pack to pack anyway, so as long as they've never been tampered with, what difference does it make what the source of the cards is?
Is there a difference, in your opinion, between a FASC wrapped Donruss box or taking 36 freshly pulled boxes from a couple of sealed cases where the top left pack was removed from each box and placed inside an empty Donruss box, making a Frankenstein box? Which would you "gamblers" want, if the price was the same?
@thehallmark said:
Can't this distribution also work in your favor, though? I dunno - when I get an unopened box to rip, part of it is for that gamble. If I wanted one of every card I'd get a factory set.
I believe most people that have opened a quantity of Donruss product across all years would agree that their collation is horrible. It is not uncommon to get multiple duplicates within the same pack and 4, 5, 6 or more of individual cards throughout an entire box. That can indeed work both ways. It's a great box when there are multiples of the best cards, and not so much when they're all a bunch of nobodies.
Ok, now that we've established that, I have a legitimate question. Why would anyone ever pay the FASC premium for a Donruss wax box over just a regular BBCE authenticated wax box or even just a Frankenstein lot of legitimate packs? You have no idea what you're getting from pack to pack anyway, so as long as they've never been tampered with, what difference does it make what the source of the cards is?
Is there a difference, in your opinion, between a FASC wrapped Donruss box or taking 36 freshly pulled boxes from a couple of sealed cases where the top left pack was removed from each box and placed inside an empty Donruss box, making a Frankenstein box? Which would you "gamblers" want, if the price was the same?
Pack "pressing" or cherrypicking packs with stars showing is very popular among collectors. With a FASC box, you have a good chance at getting a pack or packs with Mattingly or other stars showing as the box is original and intact. With a put together box, that likelihood is very low.
I'd imagine centering is another issue~if you start opening a box and the cards are consistently OC, you can just stop and fill up the box, have it wrapped and sell it as an authenticated box.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@thehallmark said:
Can't this distribution also work in your favor, though? I dunno - when I get an unopened box to rip, part of it is for that gamble. If I wanted one of every card I'd get a factory set.
I believe most people that have opened a quantity of Donruss product across all years would agree that their collation is horrible. It is not uncommon to get multiple duplicates within the same pack and 4, 5, 6 or more of individual cards throughout an entire box. That can indeed work both ways. It's a great box when there are multiples of the best cards, and not so much when they're all a bunch of nobodies.
Ok, now that we've established that, I have a legitimate question. Why would anyone ever pay the FASC premium for a Donruss wax box over just a regular BBCE authenticated wax box or even just a Frankenstein lot of legitimate packs? You have no idea what you're getting from pack to pack anyway, so as long as they've never been tampered with, what difference does it make what the source of the cards is?
Is there a difference, in your opinion, between a FASC wrapped Donruss box or taking 36 freshly pulled boxes from a couple of sealed cases where the top left pack was removed from each box and placed inside an empty Donruss box, making a Frankenstein box? Which would you "gamblers" want, if the price was the same?
Pack "pressing" or cherrypicking packs with stars showing is very popular among collectors. With a FASC box, you have a good chance at getting a pack or packs with Mattingly or other stars showing as the box is original and intact. With a put together box, that likelihood is very low.
I'd imagine centering is another issue~if you start opening a box and the cards are consistently OC, you can just stop and fill up the box, have it wrapped and sell it as an authenticated box.
In my example, the Frankenstein box is FASC, just taking the top left pack out of 36 individual FASC boxes. My question was geared more towards those that said that they "like to gamble" when they rip, who dislike smooth distribution or collation. Which box would they prefer?
@thehallmark said:
Can't this distribution also work in your favor, though? I dunno - when I get an unopened box to rip, part of it is for that gamble. If I wanted one of every card I'd get a factory set.
I believe most people that have opened a quantity of Donruss product across all years would agree that their collation is horrible. It is not uncommon to get multiple duplicates within the same pack and 4, 5, 6 or more of individual cards throughout an entire box. That can indeed work both ways. It's a great box when there are multiples of the best cards, and not so much when they're all a bunch of nobodies.
Ok, now that we've established that, I have a legitimate question. Why would anyone ever pay the FASC premium for a Donruss wax box over just a regular BBCE authenticated wax box or even just a Frankenstein lot of legitimate packs? You have no idea what you're getting from pack to pack anyway, so as long as they've never been tampered with, what difference does it make what the source of the cards is?
Is there a difference, in your opinion, between a FASC wrapped Donruss box or taking 36 freshly pulled boxes from a couple of sealed cases where the top left pack was removed from each box and placed inside an empty Donruss box, making a Frankenstein box? Which would you "gamblers" want, if the price was the same?
Pack "pressing" or cherrypicking packs with stars showing is very popular among collectors. With a FASC box, you have a good chance at getting a pack or packs with Mattingly or other stars showing as the box is original and intact. With a put together box, that likelihood is very low.
I'd imagine centering is another issue~if you start opening a box and the cards are consistently OC, you can just stop and fill up the box, have it wrapped and sell it as an authenticated box.
In my example, the Frankenstein box is FASC, just taking the top left pack out of 36 individual FASC boxes. My question was geared more towards those that said that they "like to gamble" when they rip, who dislike smooth distribution or collation. Which box would they prefer?
In a hypothetical controlled example like that (one which will never occur in reality as no one is going to pull a single pack from 36 FASC boxes to create a Frankenstein box), it probably doesnt really make a difference if you plan to open them but my answer is addressing the reason why FASC boxes command a premium and why collectors pay that premium and the reason is because the packs in the box are original and intact and haven't been messed with or cherrypicked for stars etc. As an unopened collector, there in no question which box is more desirable. And even if I'm a ripper, I want 36 case fresh packs, not 36 packs that might have been handled by 10 different people before being thrown together and wrapped in the same box.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@thehallmark said:
Can't this distribution also work in your favor, though? I dunno - when I get an unopened box to rip, part of it is for that gamble. If I wanted one of every card I'd get a factory set.
I believe most people that have opened a quantity of Donruss product across all years would agree that their collation is horrible. It is not uncommon to get multiple duplicates within the same pack and 4, 5, 6 or more of individual cards throughout an entire box. That can indeed work both ways. It's a great box when there are multiples of the best cards, and not so much when they're all a bunch of nobodies.
Ok, now that we've established that, I have a legitimate question. Why would anyone ever pay the FASC premium for a Donruss wax box over just a regular BBCE authenticated wax box or even just a Frankenstein lot of legitimate packs? You have no idea what you're getting from pack to pack anyway, so as long as they've never been tampered with, what difference does it make what the source of the cards is?
Is there a difference, in your opinion, between a FASC wrapped Donruss box or taking 36 freshly pulled boxes from a couple of sealed cases where the top left pack was removed from each box and placed inside an empty Donruss box, making a Frankenstein box? Which would you "gamblers" want, if the price was the same?
Pack "pressing" or cherrypicking packs with stars showing is very popular among collectors. With a FASC box, you have a good chance at getting a pack or packs with Mattingly or other stars showing as the box is original and intact. With a put together box, that likelihood is very low.
I'd imagine centering is another issue~if you start opening a box and the cards are consistently OC, you can just stop and fill up the box, have it wrapped and sell it as an authenticated box.
In my example, the Frankenstein box is FASC, just taking the top left pack out of 36 individual FASC boxes. My question was geared more towards those that said that they "like to gamble" when they rip, who dislike smooth distribution or collation. Which box would they prefer?
In a hypothetical controlled example like that (one which will never occur in reality as no one is going to pull a single pack from 36 FASC boxes to create a Frankenstein box), it probably doesnt really make a difference if you plan to open them but my answer is addressing the reason why FASC boxes command a premium and why collectors pay that premium and the reason is because the packs in the box are original and intact and haven't been messed with or cherrypicked for stars etc. As an unopened collector, there in no question which box is more desirable. And even if I'm a ripper, I want 36 case fresh packs, not 36 packs that might have been handled by 10 different people before being thrown together and wrapped in the same box.
I agree completely. I'm a FASC person myself. I know why people buy FASC.
I just made a comment way up in the thread after someone reported poor results from an 84 Donruss YouTube rip that everyone should know that Donruss has the poorest collation. The comments on that comment was that certain collectors would prefer a box with surprise collation and would instead buy a factory set if they wanted one of every card. If you are ok with a bunch of random pack collation, then your desire to pay a premium for FASC, does it stay the same or go up, or go down? The question was in response to the "gamblers".
I don't know what the premium is now on a 1984 Donruss FASC wax box vs just a BBCE wrapped box in the time of COVID. Is it $100, $300, $500? Prices are so volatile, it's hard for me to tell.
In my opinion, if you were going to rip, you would be a fool to pay that premium, open 5 packs, see that the centering was off, and then stop ripping. Even if you were to do a pack press on the rest before repackaging the box, the odds of hitting something that would recoup your FASC premium are pretty low.
You would be a fool to open 5 packs and get 4 Dion James Rated Rookies, 3 Chuck Raineys, 3 Al Olivers, etc, in those packs, and then stop ripping. You paid hundreds of dollars to rip a couple packs of junk.
Likewise, I am in agreement that it would be awesome if you were to pull 4 Don Mattinglys from those 5 packs. Do you stop ripping then, or keep going?
Again, my post/question is aimed more towards those rippers that don't seem to care what random results the Donruss pack gods give them. Donruss is notoriously all over the place on results when ripping. I'm aware a controlled experiment like that would never happen, I'm just curious how the "gamblers" would view it. Which box would they want?
I will say this about pack pressers (not being one myself, because I just don't have the patience!) Math is your friend. If you are worried about buying a non-FASC box because it has probably been "searched" by the pack pressers, remember this- there are only 36 packs in a box. In 1984 Donruss, there are 660 cards in a set. That means that it would take a little over 18 boxes of 1984 Donruss to statistically "guarantee" finding a Mattingly on the back of a pack if you pressed all the packs, and if you could actually identify the card you could see through the wrapper. The likelihood that your BBCE non-FASC box is the magic box that USED to have a Mattingly on back pack before it was pressed is slim. If you are tackling a Topps box, the math is even worse. There you need 22 boxes, or over a full case, to press packs and find what you are looking for.
Additionally, who really wants the cards that are squished up against the wrapper? They inevitably have wax stains, and often have other problems associated with being the card that protects the rest of the pack. I'm not belittling those who want nothing but FASC. There is magic associated with having product that is essentially factory fresh. But if pack pressers are your primary worry, the odds are in your favor with a non-FASC box. I have regularly bought packs and boxes on ebay that are non-FASC, and are non-BBCE. Lots of fun ripping if that is your thing, and lots of fun cards to be found. Wrapped boxes have their place, but they are not the be-all,end-all, especially when it comes to junk era stuff.
Just my 2 cents.
kevin
@ReggieCleveland said:
I've gotten plenty of loaded non-FASC boxes from BBCE that had stars/rookies showing on back.
Arthur
That may be true but as collectors submit their own boxes to BBCE for authentication and the prices for star packs continue to escalate, you can bet that pack pressing and Frankenstein boxes will become more common for 1980s product as it has been with 1970s boxes. (Not to mention sequence searchers.)
This is one of the reasons, too, I like the old school, first generation BBCE wrapped boxes because back then Steve was wrapping only his own inventory and we all know he does not cherrypick his boxes. As an unopened collector, I'm willing to pay the FASC premium for peace of mind and the knowledge that the box is 100% original and intact.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
As an aside, has anyone else noticed the insane prices some sellers are asking for late 1980's racks that have been wrapped by BBCE? Just astonishing.
kevin
@ReggieCleveland said:
I've gotten plenty of loaded non-FASC boxes from BBCE that had stars/rookies showing on back.
Arthur
That may be true but as collectors submit their own boxes to BBCE for authentication and the prices for star packs continue to escalate, you can bet that pack pressing and Frankenstein boxes will become more common for 1980s product as it has been with 1970s boxes. (Not to mention sequence searchers.)
This is one of the reasons, too, I like the old school, first generation BBCE wrapped boxes because back then Steve was wrapping only his own inventory and we all know he does not cherrypick his boxes. As an unopened collector, I'm willing to pay the FASC premium for peace of mind and the knowledge that the box is 100% original and intact.
I'm sure it's going to get worse but Steve's always had quality product that wasn't FASC. I've got '83 Topps Gwynn, '84 Topps Mattingly, '85 Clemens and Puckett packs, those have all been in-demand for years.
I don't really have a dog in the fight anymore. I think the only BBCE wax boxes I have in my sports collection now are '89 Donruss FASC and '91 Bowman, unless I'm forgetting something small I still have tucked away in a moving box, I just bought an '87 Topps rack box FASC (and am still licking my wounds from the premium I paid) but I don't think non-FASC is necessarily a kiss of death.
@ReggieCleveland said:
I've gotten plenty of loaded non-FASC boxes from BBCE that had stars/rookies showing on back.
Arthur
That may be true but as collectors submit their own boxes to BBCE for authentication and the prices for star packs continue to escalate, you can bet that pack pressing and Frankenstein boxes will become more common for 1980s product as it has been with 1970s boxes. (Not to mention sequence searchers.)
This is one of the reasons, too, I like the old school, first generation BBCE wrapped boxes because back then Steve was wrapping only his own inventory and we all know he does not cherrypick his boxes. As an unopened collector, I'm willing to pay the FASC premium for peace of mind and the knowledge that the box is 100% original and intact.
I'm sure it's going to get worse but Steve's always had quality product that wasn't FASC. I've got '83 Topps Gwynn, '84 Topps Mattingly, '85 Clemens and Puckett packs, those have all been in-demand for years.
I don't really have a dog in the fight anymore. I think the only BBCE wax boxes I have in my sports collection now are '89 Donruss FASC and '91 Bowman, unless I'm forgetting something small I still have tucked away in a moving box, I just bought an '87 Topps rack box FASC (and am still licking my wounds from the premium I paid) but I don't think non-FASC is necessarily a kiss of death.
Arthur
If it's product direct from Steve or BBCE inventory, I agree. However, most boxes these days that are BBCE wrapped are not from Steve directly.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@ReggieCleveland said:
I've gotten plenty of loaded non-FASC boxes from BBCE that had stars/rookies showing on back.
Arthur
That may be true but as collectors submit their own boxes to BBCE for authentication and the prices for star packs continue to escalate, you can bet that pack pressing and Frankenstein boxes will become more common for 1980s product as it has been with 1970s boxes. (Not to mention sequence searchers.)
This is one of the reasons, too, I like the old school, first generation BBCE wrapped boxes because back then Steve was wrapping only his own inventory and we all know he does not cherrypick his boxes. As an unopened collector, I'm willing to pay the FASC premium for peace of mind and the knowledge that the box is 100% original and intact.
I'm sure it's going to get worse but Steve's always had quality product that wasn't FASC. I've got '83 Topps Gwynn, '84 Topps Mattingly, '85 Clemens and Puckett packs, those have all been in-demand for years.
I don't really have a dog in the fight anymore. I think the only BBCE wax boxes I have in my sports collection now are '89 Donruss FASC and '91 Bowman, unless I'm forgetting something small I still have tucked away in a moving box, I just bought an '87 Topps rack box FASC (and am still licking my wounds from the premium I paid) but I don't think non-FASC is necessarily a kiss of death.
Arthur
If it's product direct from Steve or BBCE inventory, I agree. However, most boxes these days that are BBCE wrapped are not from Steve directly.
Okay, I'm pleading ignorance. Do you mean BBCE wrapped boxes from sellers other than Steve?
@ReggieCleveland said:
I've gotten plenty of loaded non-FASC boxes from BBCE that had stars/rookies showing on back.
Arthur
That may be true but as collectors submit their own boxes to BBCE for authentication and the prices for star packs continue to escalate, you can bet that pack pressing and Frankenstein boxes will become more common for 1980s product as it has been with 1970s boxes. (Not to mention sequence searchers.)
This is one of the reasons, too, I like the old school, first generation BBCE wrapped boxes because back then Steve was wrapping only his own inventory and we all know he does not cherrypick his boxes. As an unopened collector, I'm willing to pay the FASC premium for peace of mind and the knowledge that the box is 100% original and intact.
I'm sure it's going to get worse but Steve's always had quality product that wasn't FASC. I've got '83 Topps Gwynn, '84 Topps Mattingly, '85 Clemens and Puckett packs, those have all been in-demand for years.
I don't really have a dog in the fight anymore. I think the only BBCE wax boxes I have in my sports collection now are '89 Donruss FASC and '91 Bowman, unless I'm forgetting something small I still have tucked away in a moving box, I just bought an '87 Topps rack box FASC (and am still licking my wounds from the premium I paid) but I don't think non-FASC is necessarily a kiss of death.
Arthur
If it's product direct from Steve or BBCE inventory, I agree. However, most boxes these days that are BBCE wrapped are not from Steve directly.
Okay, I'm pleading ignorance. Do you mean BBCE wrapped boxes from sellers other than Steve?
Arthur
Yes, most boxes bought and sold today are on the secondary market not from Steve directly.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@ReggieCleveland said:
I've gotten plenty of loaded non-FASC boxes from BBCE that had stars/rookies showing on back.
Arthur
That may be true but as collectors submit their own boxes to BBCE for authentication and the prices for star packs continue to escalate, you can bet that pack pressing and Frankenstein boxes will become more common for 1980s product as it has been with 1970s boxes. (Not to mention sequence searchers.)
This is one of the reasons, too, I like the old school, first generation BBCE wrapped boxes because back then Steve was wrapping only his own inventory and we all know he does not cherrypick his boxes. As an unopened collector, I'm willing to pay the FASC premium for peace of mind and the knowledge that the box is 100% original and intact.
I'm sure it's going to get worse but Steve's always had quality product that wasn't FASC. I've got '83 Topps Gwynn, '84 Topps Mattingly, '85 Clemens and Puckett packs, those have all been in-demand for years.
I don't really have a dog in the fight anymore. I think the only BBCE wax boxes I have in my sports collection now are '89 Donruss FASC and '91 Bowman, unless I'm forgetting something small I still have tucked away in a moving box, I just bought an '87 Topps rack box FASC (and am still licking my wounds from the premium I paid) but I don't think non-FASC is necessarily a kiss of death.
Arthur
If it's product direct from Steve or BBCE inventory, I agree. However, most boxes these days that are BBCE wrapped are not from Steve directly.
Okay, I'm pleading ignorance. Do you mean BBCE wrapped boxes from sellers other than Steve?
Arthur
Yes, most boxes bought and sold today are on the secondary market not from Steve directly.
@ReggieCleveland said:
I've gotten plenty of loaded non-FASC boxes from BBCE that had stars/rookies showing on back.
Arthur
That may be true but as collectors submit their own boxes to BBCE for authentication and the prices for star packs continue to escalate, you can bet that pack pressing and Frankenstein boxes will become more common for 1980s product as it has been with 1970s boxes. (Not to mention sequence searchers.)
This is one of the reasons, too, I like the old school, first generation BBCE wrapped boxes because back then Steve was wrapping only his own inventory and we all know he does not cherrypick his boxes. As an unopened collector, I'm willing to pay the FASC premium for peace of mind and the knowledge that the box is 100% original and intact.
I'm sure it's going to get worse but Steve's always had quality product that wasn't FASC. I've got '83 Topps Gwynn, '84 Topps Mattingly, '85 Clemens and Puckett packs, those have all been in-demand for years.
I don't really have a dog in the fight anymore. I think the only BBCE wax boxes I have in my sports collection now are '89 Donruss FASC and '91 Bowman, unless I'm forgetting something small I still have tucked away in a moving box, I just bought an '87 Topps rack box FASC (and am still licking my wounds from the premium I paid) but I don't think non-FASC is necessarily a kiss of death.
Arthur
If it's product direct from Steve or BBCE inventory, I agree. However, most boxes these days that are BBCE wrapped are not from Steve directly.
Okay, I'm pleading ignorance. Do you mean BBCE wrapped boxes from sellers other than Steve?
Arthur
Yes, most boxes bought and sold today are on the secondary market not from Steve directly.
The amount of funny business has increased?
Arthur
Not funny business in the sense that packs aren't authentic in a BBCE wrapped box, but FASC is the only way to be assured that the box has not been cherrypicked or pressed. This is especially noteworthy for rack and cello boxes where star packs sell for huge premiums. You open a 1980 cello box and find a Henderson on top pack. You send that pack to PSA for grading and then buy a loose common pack to refill the box and get it wrapped again. FASC is the only way to guarantee that won't happen.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@robert67 said:
Tim, would you buy a BBCE FASC box from a seller other than Steve?
Not trying to start anything, but I am watching a few on Ebay. Maybe I should wait until Steve has the ones I want in stock?
For FASC boxes (unlike generic BBCE boxes) the source should not matter as those boxes will only be labeled as FASC if Steve personally cracks open the sealed case. What you do need to be aware of is the writing on the label itself as I have seen people try to add "from A Sealed case" when line is blank (as many of the early labels are) to try and make the box something it's not.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@mexpo75 said:
Tim, Thanks for explaining the whole process. I was completely in the dark.
My pleasure, Mike!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@robert67 said:
Tim, would you buy a BBCE FASC box from a seller other than Steve?
Not trying to start anything, but I am watching a few on Ebay. Maybe I should wait until Steve has the ones I want in stock?
For FASC boxes (unlike generic BBCE boxes) the source should not matter as those boxes will only be labeled as FASC if Steve personally cracks open the sealed case. What you do need to be aware of is the writing on the label itself as I have seen people try to add "from A Sealed case" when line is blank (as many of the early labels are) to try and make the box something it's not.
Wow. I didn't even think of that. Thanks for the clarification and the tip.
Comments
Check that: from $750 to now $1125 since May 22. God bless!
The new vintage? Everything old is new again. All these price rises stands to reason. When vintage-vintage prices get so high most can't afford it, so in a natural progression the speculators look elsewhere and begin to drive those prices higher. Rinse and repeat as the years go rolling by.
Boy, the crisser sure missed the boat on the unopened call...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
If he would have just bought the items at the low prices he scoured the sales for to prove his point, he would be one rich dude...
Does anybody remember the price we paid in the group break for the 84D FASC boxes a few years ago?
eBay Store
Greg Maddux #1 Master SetGreg Maddux #2 Basic Set
I remember having a fun rip from one of our group breaks in 2015 for 1984 donruss at about 225-250
I believe it was $240. Glad I participated!
This is bananas.
Arthur
I have now watched three YouTube videos of 1984 Donruss wax boxes being opened. All were BBCE authenticated and sealed; one might have been FASC, it’s not clear.
One box had zero Mattingly or Strawberry rookie cards
One box had zero Mattingly and two Strawberry cards.
One box had one Mattingly and two Strawberry cards.
Really fun but brutal to watch. There were lots of nice HOFers with solid centering, and with 660 cards in the set, your chances of getting the cards you want are much higher than a 792-card Topps set.....but still. What a crapshoot!
In my experience, Donruss has always had the most randomized (worst)collation, with Fleer being the most consistent (best). You can get multiples of the same card in a Donruss pack often enough that you don't even find it odd any more. Rarely do you even pull duplicates out of an entire Fleer box.
Agree. I opened two boxes each of 81-83 Fleer a few years ago and got at least one of every card and no more than two. Donruss was terrible.
Can't this distribution also work in your favor, though? I dunno - when I get an unopened box to rip, part of it is for that gamble. If I wanted one of every card I'd get a factory set.
IMO, 1984 Donruss is as key to the 80’s as 1975 Topps is to the 70’s...both colorful, popular sets. Look at prices for 75 Topps unopened...enough said.
Duplicates can be a great thing if you’re looking for an 84D box with three Mattinglys in it!
Still, amazing how at one time we were talking about both Mattingly AND Strawberry as sure-fire Hall of Famers. Imagine how much a box would be worth if that had been the case?!
I completely agree with you. I'm really surprised unopened factory sets aren't seeing the drive in price. There is still the thrill of the hunt for a PSA 10 and you are even guaranteed the key cards. But again, wax is what everyone wants.
Don
>
Successful transactions on the BST boards with rtimmer, coincoins, gerard, tincup, tjm965, MMR, mission16, dirtygoldman, AUandAG, deadmunny, thedutymon, leadoff4, Kid4HOF03, BRI2327, colebear, mcholke, rpcolettrane, rockdjrw, publius, quik, kalinefan, Allen, JackWESQ, CON40, Griffeyfan2430, blue227, Tiggs2012, ndleo, CDsNuts, ve3rules, doh, MurphDawg, tennessebanker, and gene1978.
Factory sets from 1984 are a sure sleeper.
I doubt anyone is opening these boxes at these prices.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Really great vintage unopened boxes are like crack.....
I bought two '84 Donruss FASC a year and a half ago and felt a little buyers remorse for what I paid then. But this is nuts. That remorse is gone.
Edit: Check that. Remorse is still there and stronger. I should have bought MORE LOL
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I'm just thankful that I don't like 84 Donruss! (whew!) The big question is, when everyone has spent their Corona checks, and sports open back up (maybe not this year, but even next year) and folks have a lot more avenues to spend their discretionary income, do prices slack back off? If my entertainment budget is $500 a month and I have concerts, and sports, and eating out, and movies to choose from, my baseball card budget is lots smaller. But if I don't have those options, BBC it is! I think that there are a lot of guys who have bought for nostalgia and to have fun during the quarantine. When things cycle back to normal, those folks will either all try to sell (because they quickly lost interest) or hold because slacking prices made their purchases not look like such a good deal. I would also guess that the huge price run up on things like 1983 (all three brands) and 1985 has resulted in lots of transactions, but not a lot of ripping. On the other hand, I suspect that there has been an absolutely epic amount of ripping of 87 Topps and Donruss, 89 Donruss, and 89 Upper Deck in the last few months. Probably more than at any time since those issues were printed.
Just my 2 cents.
kevin
I know we're all supposed to keep facing forward, avoiding eye contact and just continue to beat it, but I'm going to go ahead and say it -- the '84 Donruss legend is built on sand and water.
Now, I wasn't around back then to experience first-hand the whys of the Donruss Mattingly becoming king of the mountain (I missed it by 2 years or so) but for as long as I've been collecting there's been the famous urban legend about "1984 Donruss was short printed!"
That is, of course, a giant load of baloney. There was more '84 Donruss produced than any year prior. They sold so much '84 Donruss that it gave them the confidence to branch out and enter the Canadian market in 1985.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on the set. It's a really nice set with a great design but everything about its demand comes from the Mattingly craze in the '80s and the belief that it was short-printed.
Alas, when the legend becomes fact, print the legend.
Arthur
Vigorously disagree. 1984 Donruss is the iconic Donruss issue of the 1980's and arguably the iconic issue off all the brands of the decade aside from 1980 Topps. It's certainly in the discussion. I don't want to piss on Fleer. Great stuff from them too. While we have seen much more FASC surface during the past two months than really ever before it's got NOTHING on say 1990 Fleer basketball. That stuff is coming out of every nook and cranny all over the place and is something that you can tell had a gigantic print run. '84 Donruss FASC even with these crazy prices is still just being leaked out a bit at a time. If it was THAT prevalent the stuff would be flooding the market like '90 Fleer BB. Your opinion that the issue is built on top of sand & water will prove to be Crisser level fail for you
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Who compared it to '90 Fleer basketball? I never said there were warehouses of the product sitting somewhere, I said it wasn't short-printed. They made more 1984 Donruss than they they did 1983.
The urban legend that it was short-printed is BS. How you go from that to comparing it to '90 Fleer basketball I have no idea. Is there less '84 Donruss than '85? Absolutely. Was '84 Donruss some print run anomaly that makes it extraordinarily rarer than the trajectory of baseball cards at that time? No.
Arthur
I used '90 Fleer BB as just an example of something that's ACTUALLY over printed and it's obvious because its all over the place on say e-bay. '84 Donruss isn't all over the place. Good luck with your sand and water analysis on '84 D
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
What.... THE HELL.... are you talking about!?!?
Did you even read what I wrote? If so, did you understand it?
You're implying that something prior to that was described as "over printed." When did that happen? By who? It wasn't me. I said it isn't short-printed. There's a spectrum, you understand that, right? It's not just all or nothing. Are you going to be able to understand what I'm writing right now? I feel like I'm having a conversation with someone that's getting 20% of what I'm saying.
Why do I need luck? I wasn't making a prediction or forecasting its future. I never made a comment to the effect that the prices will crash or even come down. Like I said, when the legend becomes fact, print the legend. Do you understand the reference? It means it doesn't matter that it isn't short-printed, the idea is too far ingrained in the hobby to reverse.
Holy smokes. Please read this post a few times and make sure you understand what I'm saying before you respond, for our sake and the sake of the people that read this thread.
Arthur
Grabbed a bunch of > @softparade said:
Soft parade,
Best to just laugh at and move on, trust me.
Imagine that, COVID-19 hits, many businesses slow down or are unable to operate, but BBCE sees this crazy surge in demand and are trying to just meet that demand while also taking social distancing measures.
Does FASC mean From A Sealed Case?
What does BBCE do for hobby/retail box authentication?
I can imagine how suspicious collectors would feel buying a random hobby or retail box of 1984 Donruss. Who knows what tampering took place during all those years. If it is fresh from a case, it puts so many worries and concerns to rest.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
I'm laughing for sure
I guess The Crisser reference set him off. It was tongue in cheek. Everything else was mundane. What Evs
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I believe most people that have opened a quantity of Donruss product across all years would agree that their collation is horrible. It is not uncommon to get multiple duplicates within the same pack and 4, 5, 6 or more of individual cards throughout an entire box. That can indeed work both ways. It's a great box when there are multiples of the best cards, and not so much when they're all a bunch of nobodies.
Ok, now that we've established that, I have a legitimate question. Why would anyone ever pay the FASC premium for a Donruss wax box over just a regular BBCE authenticated wax box or even just a Frankenstein lot of legitimate packs? You have no idea what you're getting from pack to pack anyway, so as long as they've never been tampered with, what difference does it make what the source of the cards is?
Is there a difference, in your opinion, between a FASC wrapped Donruss box or taking 36 freshly pulled boxes from a couple of sealed cases where the top left pack was removed from each box and placed inside an empty Donruss box, making a Frankenstein box? Which would you "gamblers" want, if the price was the same?
Pack "pressing" or cherrypicking packs with stars showing is very popular among collectors. With a FASC box, you have a good chance at getting a pack or packs with Mattingly or other stars showing as the box is original and intact. With a put together box, that likelihood is very low.
I'd imagine centering is another issue~if you start opening a box and the cards are consistently OC, you can just stop and fill up the box, have it wrapped and sell it as an authenticated box.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
In my example, the Frankenstein box is FASC, just taking the top left pack out of 36 individual FASC boxes. My question was geared more towards those that said that they "like to gamble" when they rip, who dislike smooth distribution or collation. Which box would they prefer?
In a hypothetical controlled example like that (one which will never occur in reality as no one is going to pull a single pack from 36 FASC boxes to create a Frankenstein box), it probably doesnt really make a difference if you plan to open them but my answer is addressing the reason why FASC boxes command a premium and why collectors pay that premium and the reason is because the packs in the box are original and intact and haven't been messed with or cherrypicked for stars etc. As an unopened collector, there in no question which box is more desirable. And even if I'm a ripper, I want 36 case fresh packs, not 36 packs that might have been handled by 10 different people before being thrown together and wrapped in the same box.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I agree completely. I'm a FASC person myself. I know why people buy FASC.
I just made a comment way up in the thread after someone reported poor results from an 84 Donruss YouTube rip that everyone should know that Donruss has the poorest collation. The comments on that comment was that certain collectors would prefer a box with surprise collation and would instead buy a factory set if they wanted one of every card. If you are ok with a bunch of random pack collation, then your desire to pay a premium for FASC, does it stay the same or go up, or go down? The question was in response to the "gamblers".
I don't know what the premium is now on a 1984 Donruss FASC wax box vs just a BBCE wrapped box in the time of COVID. Is it $100, $300, $500? Prices are so volatile, it's hard for me to tell.
In my opinion, if you were going to rip, you would be a fool to pay that premium, open 5 packs, see that the centering was off, and then stop ripping. Even if you were to do a pack press on the rest before repackaging the box, the odds of hitting something that would recoup your FASC premium are pretty low.
You would be a fool to open 5 packs and get 4 Dion James Rated Rookies, 3 Chuck Raineys, 3 Al Olivers, etc, in those packs, and then stop ripping. You paid hundreds of dollars to rip a couple packs of junk.
Likewise, I am in agreement that it would be awesome if you were to pull 4 Don Mattinglys from those 5 packs. Do you stop ripping then, or keep going?
Again, my post/question is aimed more towards those rippers that don't seem to care what random results the Donruss pack gods give them. Donruss is notoriously all over the place on results when ripping. I'm aware a controlled experiment like that would never happen, I'm just curious how the "gamblers" would view it. Which box would they want?
Is it weird that I suddenly want to own several Dion James rated rookies?
I will say this about pack pressers (not being one myself, because I just don't have the patience!) Math is your friend. If you are worried about buying a non-FASC box because it has probably been "searched" by the pack pressers, remember this- there are only 36 packs in a box. In 1984 Donruss, there are 660 cards in a set. That means that it would take a little over 18 boxes of 1984 Donruss to statistically "guarantee" finding a Mattingly on the back of a pack if you pressed all the packs, and if you could actually identify the card you could see through the wrapper. The likelihood that your BBCE non-FASC box is the magic box that USED to have a Mattingly on back pack before it was pressed is slim. If you are tackling a Topps box, the math is even worse. There you need 22 boxes, or over a full case, to press packs and find what you are looking for.
Additionally, who really wants the cards that are squished up against the wrapper? They inevitably have wax stains, and often have other problems associated with being the card that protects the rest of the pack. I'm not belittling those who want nothing but FASC. There is magic associated with having product that is essentially factory fresh. But if pack pressers are your primary worry, the odds are in your favor with a non-FASC box. I have regularly bought packs and boxes on ebay that are non-FASC, and are non-BBCE. Lots of fun ripping if that is your thing, and lots of fun cards to be found. Wrapped boxes have their place, but they are not the be-all,end-all, especially when it comes to junk era stuff.
Just my 2 cents.
kevin
I've gotten plenty of loaded non-FASC boxes from BBCE that had stars/rookies showing on back.
Arthur
no. completely normal.
but if we discover a joe carter cache we're going to look into some professional help.
That may be true but as collectors submit their own boxes to BBCE for authentication and the prices for star packs continue to escalate, you can bet that pack pressing and Frankenstein boxes will become more common for 1980s product as it has been with 1970s boxes. (Not to mention sequence searchers.)
This is one of the reasons, too, I like the old school, first generation BBCE wrapped boxes because back then Steve was wrapping only his own inventory and we all know he does not cherrypick his boxes. As an unopened collector, I'm willing to pay the FASC premium for peace of mind and the knowledge that the box is 100% original and intact.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
As an aside, has anyone else noticed the insane prices some sellers are asking for late 1980's racks that have been wrapped by BBCE? Just astonishing.
kevin
I'm sure it's going to get worse but Steve's always had quality product that wasn't FASC. I've got '83 Topps Gwynn, '84 Topps Mattingly, '85 Clemens and Puckett packs, those have all been in-demand for years.
I don't really have a dog in the fight anymore. I think the only BBCE wax boxes I have in my sports collection now are '89 Donruss FASC and '91 Bowman, unless I'm forgetting something small I still have tucked away in a moving box, I just bought an '87 Topps rack box FASC (and am still licking my wounds from the premium I paid) but I don't think non-FASC is necessarily a kiss of death.
Arthur
If it's product direct from Steve or BBCE inventory, I agree. However, most boxes these days that are BBCE wrapped are not from Steve directly.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Okay, I'm pleading ignorance. Do you mean BBCE wrapped boxes from sellers other than Steve?
Arthur
Yes, most boxes bought and sold today are on the secondary market not from Steve directly.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The amount of funny business has increased?
Arthur
Not funny business in the sense that packs aren't authentic in a BBCE wrapped box, but FASC is the only way to be assured that the box has not been cherrypicked or pressed. This is especially noteworthy for rack and cello boxes where star packs sell for huge premiums. You open a 1980 cello box and find a Henderson on top pack. You send that pack to PSA for grading and then buy a loose common pack to refill the box and get it wrapped again. FASC is the only way to guarantee that won't happen.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Tim, Thanks for explaining the whole process. I was completely in the dark.
Tim, would you buy a BBCE FASC box from a seller other than Steve?
Not trying to start anything, but I am watching a few on Ebay. Maybe I should wait until Steve has the ones I want in stock?
For FASC boxes (unlike generic BBCE boxes) the source should not matter as those boxes will only be labeled as FASC if Steve personally cracks open the sealed case. What you do need to be aware of is the writing on the label itself as I have seen people try to add "from A Sealed case" when line is blank (as many of the early labels are) to try and make the box something it's not.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
My pleasure, Mike!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Wow. I didn't even think of that. Thanks for the clarification and the tip.