1851 San Francisco Territorial Double Eagle

Zoins

Just ran across this 1851 double eagle which I think looks great. A beautiful San Francisco piece!

This is the finest known specimen and from the Tree Leaf Collection.

The theory is that these were struck in Birmingham, England.

Were these struck by Ralph Heaton II of Heaton's Mint? Is there any information on if these were commissioned or just done by Ralph?

ricko

Very, very nice indeed...Great design, and gold....What is the significance of the 'screamer'....Cheers, RickO

kiyote

Wow that is one knockout coin!

CaptHenway

@ricko said:
Very, very nice indeed...Great design, and gold....What is the significance of the 'screamer'....Cheers, RickO

The head of the Gorgon Medusa, which was presented to Athena by Perseus after he slew it. Apparently she wore it afterwards.

ricko

@CaptHenway ...Thank you sir, I will do a bit of reading on that...Cheers, RickO

ms70

That's an incredibly beautiful reverse.

PhillyJoe

Very interesting coin. It has a reeded edge so no MM anywhere that I can see. Hope the owner didn't buy it thinking it was gold. (I know I would have).

Zoins

@PhillyJoe said:
Very interesting coin. It has a reeded edge so no MM anywhere that I can see. Hope the owner didn't buy it thinking it was gold. (I know I would have).

Hopefully the buyers know what it is. It's pretty pricey and way more than melt given that it's gilt silver.

NumisOxide

Cool piece.

ksammut

Beautiful!

robkool

NICE !!!

crazyhounddog

One of my all time favorites 👌

7Jaguars

Hello Dan Carr! He needs to. see this one as inspiration....

Zoins

Here are some additional renditions of Minerva's shield with Medusa, along with one with Washington!

See more here:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Seal_of_California
• https://www.stolenhistory.org/threads/the-great-seal-of-the-state-of-california-horned-creature-and-the-war-goddess.747/

yosclimber

Early photoshopped waist?

Zoins

In case anyone is wondering, this is a $26K piece.

Here's the lot from 2018 FUN.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/territorial-gold/1851-p-20-san-francisco-state-of-california-20-dollars-pattern-ms62-gilt-ngc-k-4-low-r7/a/1271-5218.s?ic16=ViewItem-Auction-Open-PreviousPricesHeritage-081514

jabba

Wow 26K it’s a very nice but damm that’s a lot of cash

MilkmanDan

Can someone explain to me why this would go for $26k? I don’t get it. Not real gold, not made in California, not even clear who made it. It’s pretty, sure, but to me it looks like a sub $1k token.

For my $26k I’d find a nice Kellogg $20 or possibly a lower grade $50 slug with nice original surfaces. Something with real gold and real history connected to the gold rush.

jesbroken

Beauty of a coin. Not familiar with gold. but those are fancy 1's in the date.
Jim

cmerlo1

I'm assuming it was struck multiple times to bring up the detail. It looks like one of them was not aligned properly. That just adds to its coolness, if that's the case.

Zoins

@OriginalDan said:
Can someone explain to me why this would go for $26k? I don’t get it. Not real gold, not made in California, not even clear who made it. It’s pretty, sure, but to me it looks like a sub $1k token.

For my $26k I’d find a nice Kellogg $20 or possibly a lower grade $50 slug with nice original surfaces. Something with real gold and real history connected to the gold rush.

We have a few people here who collect territorials. Perhaps they can answer?

I will say that this non-Hawaii Hawaii piece sold for $200,000 in 2012 and it seems a lot of people have issues with that price as well. It was offered for $450,999 in 2015. At least this one is gold.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/949892/the-grand-prize-of-hawaiian-numismatics-reginald-huth-gold

metalmeister

Top Drawer piece. Great historic $20 Gold.

MilkmanDan

@Zoins said:

@OriginalDan said:
Can someone explain to me why this would go for $26k? I don’t get it. Not real gold, not made in California, not even clear who made it. It’s pretty, sure, but to me it looks like a sub $1k token.

For my $26k I’d find a nice Kellogg $20 or possibly a lower grade $50 slug with nice original surfaces. Something with real gold and real history connected to the gold rush.

We have a few people here who collect territorials. Perhaps they can answer?

I will say that this non-Hawaii Hawaii piece sold for $200,000 in 2012 and it seems a lot of people have issues with that price as well. It was offered for $450,999 in 2015. At least this one is gold.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/949892/the-grand-prize-of-hawaiian-numismatics-reginald-huth-gold

I collect pioneer gold so I’m one of those people, and I don’t understand the price paid.

CaptHenway

@OriginalDan said:
Can someone explain to me why this would go for $26k? I don’t get it. Not real gold, not made in California, not even clear who made it. It’s pretty, sure, but to me it looks like a sub $1k token.

For my $26k I’d find a nice Kellogg $20 or possibly a lower grade $50 slug with nice original surfaces. Something with real gold and real history connected to the gold rush.

“The Law of Supply and Demand!”

Violate it at your peril.

Zoins

@OriginalDan said:

@Zoins said:

@OriginalDan said:
Can someone explain to me why this would go for $26k? I don’t get it. Not real gold, not made in California, not even clear who made it. It’s pretty, sure, but to me it looks like a sub $1k token.

For my $26k I’d find a nice Kellogg $20 or possibly a lower grade $50 slug with nice original surfaces. Something with real gold and real history connected to the gold rush.

We have a few people here who collect territorials. Perhaps they can answer?

I will say that this non-Hawaii Hawaii piece sold for $200,000 in 2012 and it seems a lot of people have issues with that price as well. It was offered for $450,999 in 2015. At least this one is gold.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/949892/the-grand-prize-of-hawaiian-numismatics-reginald-huth-gold

I collect pioneer gold so I’m one of those people, and I don’t understand the price paid.

I’m guessing the people that want this already have nicer more common pieces and want something more rare, or just want something more rare.

It’s still a lot less than the 2001 restrikes of the 1855 Humbert slug that have sold for $70,000.

AUandAG

Why is the significance of "territorial"? California was a State in 1850, no longer a territory in 1851.

bob

johnny9434

Beautiful coin

Zoins

@AUandAG said:
Why is the significance of "territorial"? California was a State in 1850, no longer a territory in 1851.

bob

Well, it's certain not a US federal coin.

Perhaps it's a California State pattern coin!

On a more serious note, it is collected and cataloged with territorial coins, hence the Kagin-4 catalog number.

MrEureka

@OriginalDan said:
Can someone explain to me why this would go for $26k? I don’t get it. Not real gold, not made in California, not even clear who made it. It’s pretty, sure, but to me it looks like a sub $1k token.

For my $26k I’d find a nice Kellogg $20 or possibly a lower grade $50 slug with nice original surfaces. Something with real gold and real history connected to the gold rush.

I don’t know that anyone knows the full history of these coins. With the right story, it could make the coin seem really cheap at 25K.

Anyway, to answer the question, it’s expensive because it’s collected as part of a series in which even the common coins are worth thousands in low grade, and six figure coins abound. In other words, to collectors of Pioneer Gold, 25K is no big deal.

MilkmanDan

I suspect people think it is > @MrEureka said:

@OriginalDan said:
Can someone explain to me why this would go for $26k? I don’t get it. Not real gold, not made in California, not even clear who made it. It’s pretty, sure, but to me it looks like a sub $1k token.

For my $26k I’d find a nice Kellogg $20 or possibly a lower grade $50 slug with nice original surfaces. Something with real gold and real history connected to the gold rush.

I don’t know that anyone knows the full history of these coins. With the right story, it could make the coin seem really cheap at 25K.

Anyway, to answer the question, it’s expensive because it’s collected as part of a series in which even the common coins are worth thousands in low grade, and six figure coins abound. In other words, to collectors of Pioneer Gold, 25K is no big deal.

I get what you're saying Andy, I guess I just don't understand the draw. It's a totally different thing than a Moffat, Wass, Humbert, U.S. Assay...etc.

CaptHenway

@AUandAG said:
Why is the significance of "territorial"? California was a State in 1850, no longer a territory in 1851.

bob

That is a damn good question.

As Mr. Eureka says, it is probably common usage based upon where California gold is lumped (no pun intended) in the Redbook. Everything in the Redbook before the 1793 Half Cent used to be lumped together as “Colonial,” but they have been greatly refined in recent years.

MilkmanDan

Some say "territorial" others say "pioneer". I like the latter.

CaptHenway

Went and looked at the title of the section: "Private and Territorial Gold." Fairly inclusive, and it covers the Templeton Reid and Bechtler gold pieces which were also struck in states rather than territories, as was the case with most "California gold."

There is still some ambiguity. "Private" gold was struck by a private individual or firm, but "Territorial" gold was not struck by the Territories, except for Deseret.

Timbuk3

Wow, "sweet" !!!

Zoins

How many of these are known?

I can only find this one online, NGC Census shows 1 and PCGS shows none.

Is this unique?

scubafuel

@OriginalDan I see a lot of parallels to the Continental Dollar-sized tokens here

MilkmanDan

@scubafuel said:
@OriginalDan I see a lot of parallels to the Continental Dollar-sized tokens here

Let's see here...

possibly made in England, but no one really knows - check
people pay large sums of money despite unknown origins - check

I'd say yep.

CaptainBlunt

Fred T Huddard (1864-1919)
Spent his life in SF Past President of the Pacific Coast Numismatic Society
had a set of these pieces. Source fellow member Edgar H Adams
Private Gold Coinage Book
I don’t know where Huddard got them from...Pedigree
Very beautiful piece

CaptainBlunt

It’s hard to do online research with a cell phone...Looks like Charles P Britton Sale Jan 29th 1883 sale had a set of these pieces
Lot 400 very rare silver patterns
Only set the cataloguer has ever seen Cogan $20, $10, $5, $2 1/2
Think the set sold for $52.50

4BR

1851 San Francisco Territorial Double Eagle, that coin is incredible, thanks for posting the images. Hopefully Moonlight Mint / Carr, or some other private mint would make a high quality re-strike in silver, I love that design!

CaptainBlunt

Bangs Merwin & Co. NY
Year 1863
No 2204
No 2205
Under patterns
pg. 95
They have the twenty dollar and half eagle pieces both in copper
Described as proof

CaptHenway

@4BR said:
1851 San Francisco Territorial Double Eagle, that coin is incredible, thanks for posting the images. Hopefully Moonlight Mint / Carr, or some other private mint would make a high quality re-strike in silver, I love that design!

Can’t do a restrike without the original dies.

JesseKraft

Eliasberg had a full set of silver patterns that sold for $27,500 in 1996. Catalog states that less than half-a-dozen sets existed.

Zoins

@JesseKraft said:
Eliasberg had a full set of silver patterns that sold for $27,500 in 1996. Catalog states that less than half-a-dozen sets existed.

Nice! I should call his collection the Eliasberg Everywhere collection!

CaptHenway

@CaptHenway said:

@4BR said:
1851 San Francisco Territorial Double Eagle, that coin is incredible, thanks for posting the images. Hopefully Moonlight Mint / Carr, or some other private mint would make a high quality re-strike in silver, I love that design!

Can’t do a restrike without the original dies.

If you were to make copy dies and strike reproductions from them, you would be absolutely required by law (see the Hobby Protection Act of 1973 and subsequent amendments) to stamp them with the word COPY in accordance with the style, size and depth requirements of the HPA.

1northcoin

@AUandAG said:
Why is the significance of "territorial"? California was a State in 1850, no longer a territory in 1851.

bob

Thanks for asking as the responses have been enlightening.

FWIW the first $20 gold piece minted in America for general circulation was dated just a year or two earlier- The $20 Mormon Gold Piece was minted by Brigham Young in Salt Lake City. It contained California Gold Rush gold of which some was likely sourced from Sutter’s Mill itself as Mormon workers there were involved in the discovery. (They had just been released from their service in The Mormon Battalion for the U.S. Government.)

kiyote

The price seems reasonable when you remember someone paid $91 million for this rabbit sculpture

Zoins

@CaptHenway said:

@CaptHenway said:

@4BR said:
1851 San Francisco Territorial Double Eagle, that coin is incredible, thanks for posting the images. Hopefully Moonlight Mint / Carr, or some other private mint would make a high quality re-strike in silver, I love that design!

Can’t do a restrike without the original dies.

If you were to make copy dies and strike reproductions from them, you would be absolutely required by law (see the Hobby Protection Act of 1973 and subsequent amendments) to stamp them with the word COPY in accordance with the style, size and depth requirements of the HPA.

Companies are increasingly choosing alternative means of complying with the Hobby Protection Act, specifically by making changes to the design that are often less obtrusive, and more market acceptable, than the COPY word. For example, the Smithsonian added a "SI" mintmark on their copy Confederate Cents to eliminate the need for the COPY text.

Some copy coins from before the Hobby Protection Act already employ this method of identification such as the Henry Evans copies of the Massachusetts cent and the Bolen Bar Cent (where the devices are different).

Zoins

Thanks to @CaptainBlunt and @JesseKraft for references to other specimens.

It's amazing in this day and age that there are entire types like this that aren't slabbed by PCGS, with or without TrueViews.

Zoins

Is there any information available on the Tree Leaf Collection?

Is it well known? What other pieces are in it?

1northcoin

@1northcoin said:

@AUandAG said:
Why is the significance of "territorial"? California was a State in 1850, no longer a territory in 1851.

bob

Thanks for asking as the responses have been enlightening.

FWIW the first $20 gold piece minted in America for general circulation was dated just a year or two earlier- The $20 Mormon Gold Piece was minted by Brigham Young in Salt Lake City. It contained California Gold Rush gold of which some was likely sourced from Sutter’s Mill itself as Mormon workers there were involved in the discovery. (They had just been released from their service in The Mormon Battalion for the U.S. Government.)

I should add that the $20 Mormon Gold coin minted in 1849 is pricey as well. Approximately only two dozen are known to exist with the finest being a PCGS MS62 found in a box after five decades. Prior to its discovery one in a NGC holder sold for over half a million dollars.

I will just have to be content with my 1849 $5 Mormon Gold Piece from that same first year and my 1860 $5 Mormon Gold Piece that features the Lion design and inscriptions in the Deseret Alphabet that Brigham Young had introduced as a common written language for the many varied immigrants who found English challenging.