Forget

Smittys

Poo

AUandAG

I return for a refund. Fakes or no, does not matter.

bob

TurtleCat

While I think it speaks a lot of the seller to refund first, I always expect to ship back first before a refund.

jmlanzaf

Given that they are worthless (?) fakes, exactly what are you risking by shipping first?

The seller will either refund or not, whether you return them or not. You have no way to compel a refund. How exactly will holding on to the fakes change the outcome?

291fifth

Return items for a refund.

amwldcoin

Ruhh Row! Me thinks they are 2 gold dollars.

CoinHoarder

jclovescoins

I am only responding as a matter of principle since this thread involves me. For background, I’ve done 4-5 deals with Smittys on this forum in the past 2-3 years that I can recall. All have gone smoothly and without issue. Ranging from a few hundred dollars to a couple thousand. When I sell on the forum, I typically sell at wholesale prices and give people good deals when I need to clear space for other things.

In this particular instant, I posted four gold dollars as a lot for $775. Two were PCGS graded AU53 and AU58 and had guide values of $620 total for the pair (I figured them as $250 each, or $500 total in the lot). Most coins I’ve seen do not sell for PCGS values, but a few years ago I sold similar gold dollars at the St. Louis coin show easily to a gold dealer for $250 each, so that’s where I obtained those figures.

The other two coins were jewelry pieces, in the bezels, with clear pictures and appeared to be 1852-O and 1868 gold dollars. I had no reason to believe they were fake as I had purchased them from another forum member last year and he tested them to make sure they were gold.

So the lot was $775. I’m certainly not an expert of gold dollars, so I was just blowing these out for wholesale and a bit above melt value. Smittys receives the lot on May 7 (eight days ago) and thanks me for it. This afternoon I receive a message asking “are you sure the 1852-O & 1868 one dollar gold are genuine, they were removed from ebay as counterfeit.”

I responded: “They were sold to me by a guy on the forum last year and he said they were tested (he tests all of his stuff). I’d be surprised if they aren’t good. They look good to me”

He proceeded to post them on the board asking for opinions, and several members called them counterfeits and said they were fakes from the 70s with real gold. That makes sense since they would have tested real gold. So, understandably, Smittys is upset that he thought they were real. I thought they were real. And I’m sure the guy I bought them from thought they were real as they tested gold. I guess all of us should stay away from gold dollars!

Watching forum members offer their opinions that they were counterfeit, I sent Smittys the following message: “Well if you’d like to return the whole lot including the gold jewelry pieces, I’ll take it all back and send you what you paid. I’m sorry if they aren’t, but I definitely didn’t know. Just let me know”

He then says: “I sold the two certified ones, what can we do for the two fakes?”

I said: “Let me see how I figured the two certified ones...you’re probably not going to like my answer bc the jewelry pieces I figured near melt since I didn’t know how to get them out of the bezel.”

He says: “Give me 110 refund and at gold, I'll break even keeping them as jewelry pieces.”

I said: “Well no I'm going to want them back if I'm giving any kind of refund because they need to go back to the guy I bought them from. I'll message you soon with a proposal.”

I said: “Okay, I found my notes...the two graded ones were both figured at $250/each in developing my lot price (each has PCGS guide value of $310/each)...and the two gold coins in the bezels were figured at $275.00.
You can either return all 4 with gold bezels for $775.00 that was paid, or
Two gold coins in the bezels for $275.00, or
keep them and the deal is done.
I'm not sending a refund without anything back because I need to send the two gold coins that the forum believes are fake back to the guy I bought them from (where I paid $150 for the one and $140 for the other).”

He says: “Tell you what I'm keeping them and , guess my dealing with you is done.
If you paid that little for them you knew they were fake.”
“no one buys at PCGs prices”
“so i'm suppose to take a loss based on your mistake, and you want to buy them back at less than you originally paid WTF”

I said: “Everything I said was entirely true and reasonable. Asking me to send you money is ridiculous. And, yes, I was taking a loss on the lot when I sold them. I have multiple jewelry pieces like that from the same lot that I don’t know how to remove and paid a small premium over melt.”

He says: “fine, I just expose you for selling fakes, I'm not taking a loss I moved the two certified quick, because I felt there was a lot of room in the two others now they're worth gold.
send me 300 and I'll return the 2 with bezels, Thats the best I offer, and you send money first since I have always paid you first”

I said: “It’s pretty petty to be frank with you. I sold you several lots at excellent prices. We both know the practice is you return the entire lot if you want a refund. As I’ve said multiple times, I didn’t know they were fake...the guy I bought them from said he tested them. I would obviously want to return them if they’re no good as well.”

He said: “Not the way it works sir, I've been a dealer for over 40+ years, I didnt know they were fake when purchased as part of a lot but I gave them more value. Since you made the mistake you as a"good" dealer must make up for it.”

I said: “That's not true - you return the entire lot if you want a refund because it was not negotiated piecemeal.
I'm more upset about how petty you are speaking with me considering we have done multiple deals on this forum, all of which have been good deals for you more than me (silver at or below melt, etc.).
But I am not wasting anymore of my time on this, I will send you $300 for the two coins (now determined to be fake) with bezels once I receive them. I'm not sending a prepayment considering the nasty tone you are using with me. Please send the address you'd like me to make the PP (no fee) payment to when I receive the coins. Again, I'm sorry, because I truly didn't know they were fake. Nonetheless, I don't appreciate the way you are corresponding with me and would ask you to take a step back.”

He said: “Grow a set
If I have to pay first so do u
I’ll start a thread and see what the group thinks”

He also said: “I will give you a few mintues to send money before starting the thread
You've had my money”

Then I stopped responding because he continued insulting….1) asking for money with no return of items, 2) asking for a refund before he returns the items, 3) saying “WTF” to my reasonable conversation, 4) accusing me of lying to him, 5) telling me to “grow a set”, 6) saying he is going to “expose [me] for selling fakes” as if I knew these were fake and sell fake coins as a business.

Needless to say, he has no interest in being kind or reasonable, and I think that is ridiculous considering there is, at a maximum, $300 at stake.

What would you do? I think taking them back for $300 is reasonable for me to do when I receive the coins back. I’m certainly not comfortable sending someone money that feels it is acceptable to talk to me the way he is doing. I wish him the best and hope a calmer mindset would prevail because I am being reasonable at every step of this conversation. Like I said, we had plenty of good deals in the past that he has now conveniently forgotten.

Final Thoughts: Talk to others with respect on the forum. Lots of weird stuff going on in the world right now, and to be acting ridiculous over two tiny gold coins (valued at $300 max in the deal) that are, apparently, counterfeit but still gold (and worth over $200 in gold) is beyond comprehension.

I will accept an apology and send the refund when I receive the pieces back. Otherwise, good riddance as I’m not tolerating this petty behavior.

Unknown

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johnny9434

@291fifth said:
Return items for a refund.

C.y.o.a policy 😎

Walkerfan

Sucks that they're fake and worth less than anticipated but, yes, buyer must return items before a refund can be issued, in my opinion.

I don't know if seller knew they were fake or not but I would indeed return them for a refund. $300 is fair.

1Mike1

Interesting, bringing it to the forum seems to have backfired.

abcde12345

Threatening to "expose" a deal and tattletale to the forum is trite and childish. That alone would be reason to step away from the crackpot buyer.

ricko

Tough situation but since the original post is gone, and I cannot evaluate that information, I tend to agree with @jclovescoins....Cheers, RickO

jmlanzaf

@ricko said:
Tough situation but since the original post is gone, and I cannot evaluate that information, I tend to agree with @jclovescoins....Cheers, RickO

The original post basically just asked whether the buyer should ship first or wait for the refund to arrive before shipping. There were no other details in there.

Unknown

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JBK

Thx to the buyer and seller for detailing a very sticky situation that I am sure is not uncommon.

From another subsequent thread it seems that things worked out.

KindaNewish

In all transactions, always be honest and treat others as you would want to be treated yourself.
If you f up, promptly admit it and do you best to make it right.
If you have been f'ed over, give the other party a chance to make things right.

The internet never forgets.