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1762-LM 4 Reales

BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭✭

Another 4 Reales from me... picked this example up today after a trip from Spain. Yonaka rates the 1762-Lm 4R as R4 and in his population summary it has the fewest appearances of any 4R from the mint.

This piece is a solid EF45 or AU50 (probably 45).

Comments

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 19,996 ✭✭✭✭✭

    How is the lustre in the fields? And I am not talking about reflectivity as much as what remains of die flow lines. Any reflectivity is likely muted significantly by what accumulates over time on the surfaces. Without seeing it in hand and based solely on your image, an AU grade seems more probable than 45. The coin is above average in terms of the strike and overall appearance. There does appear to be possible signs of possible refectivity penetrating through the toning along the rims on both the obverse and reverse.

    I suppose it is better to have your expectations at EF45 than be disappointed if it does not grade AU50. Wishing you the best results with the submission... I see AU50 as the floor and the most probably grade but I would be shocked if it graded 53 if it looks as good or better in hand than in the image posted.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:
    How is the lustre in the fields? And I am not talking about reflectivity as much as what remains of die flow lines. Any reflectivity is likely muted significantly by what accumulates over time on the surfaces. Without seeing it in hand and based solely on your image, an AU grade seems more probable than 45. The coin is above average in terms of the strike and overall appearance. There does appear to be possible signs of possible refectivity penetrating through the toning along the rims on both the obverse and reverse.

    I suppose it is better to have your expectations at EF45 than be disappointed if it does not grade AU50. Wishing you the best results with the submission... I see AU50 as the floor and the most probably grade but I would be shocked if it graded 53 if it looks as good or better in hand than in the image posted.

    It really is a nice coin and there is nice reflectivity in the devices. Hoping for an AU50 for sure. Regardless, being as rare as it is Im happy with either a 45 or a 50.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is a picture of Yonaka’s graph of identified examples. The sample size isn’t big enough to say definitively which date is rarest but the 1762-1768 range are all very difficult

  • JesseKraftJesseKraft Posts: 311 ✭✭✭✭

    Lovely coin! The ANS doesn't have a 1762. Here's the closest I can come that we currently have photographed:

    1755-Lima 4 reales
    1969.28.28

    Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
    Assistant Curator of American Numismatics
    American Numismatic Society
    New York City

    Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
    Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for posting Jesse! That is a tough piece as well.

  • ksammutksammut Posts: 981 ✭✭✭

    Beautiful! The history with these Reales coins is so interesting to learn.

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  • StellaStella Posts: 487 ✭✭✭

    What a solid, attractive piece. Congratulations!

    Coin collector since childhood and New York Numismatist at Heritage Auctions.
  • WCCWCC Posts: 764 ✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri you are on roll with this series. :) Wish I could have bought this coin.

    Yonaka lists this date as the rarest from his survey but I'm not sure what he included in his data; did he consider the current TPG population data in it's entirety or only those where he had an image?

    In addition to the one pictured in his reference, there is also the one previously sold by Cayon (to my recollection). NEN sold it in the NGC XF-40 holder. Cayon also sold a second coin in their sale of a mostly complete (but low quality) pillar collection from last year and a Spanish dealer has one on eBay now. (I don't think the Yonaka plate coin or the one on eBay will grade.)

    I agree with the XF-45 to AU-50 grade.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WCC said:
    @Boosibri you are on roll with this series. :) Wish I could have bought this coin.

    Yonaka lists this date as the rarest from his survey but I'm not sure what he included in his data; did he consider the current TPG population data in it's entirety or only those where he had an image?

    In addition to the one pictured in his reference, there is also the one previously sold by Cayon (to my recollection). NEN sold it in the NGC XF-40 holder. Cayon also sold a second coin in their sale of a mostly complete (but low quality) pillar collection from last year and a Spanish dealer has one on eBay now. (I don't think the Yonaka plate coin or the one on eBay will grade.)

    I agree with the XF-45 to AU-50 grade.

    This coin sold in 2019 at Cayon and is the coin you reference from the Spanish eBay dealer. I bought it on that forum thinking it was a solid coin. In hand I really like it. PCGS did not and called it cleaned which is utter nonsense. I have sent it to NGC now instead.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 764 ✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:

    @WCC said:
    @Boosibri you are on roll with this series. :) Wish I could have bought this coin.

    Yonaka lists this date as the rarest from his survey but I'm not sure what he included in his data; did he consider the current TPG population data in it's entirety or only those where he had an image?

    In addition to the one pictured in his reference, there is also the one previously sold by Cayon (to my recollection). NEN sold it in the NGC XF-40 holder. Cayon also sold a second coin in their sale of a mostly complete (but low quality) pillar collection from last year and a Spanish dealer has one on eBay now. (I don't think the Yonaka plate coin or the one on eBay will grade.)

    I agree with the XF-45 to AU-50 grade.

    This coin sold in 2019 at Cayon and is the coin you reference from the Spanish eBay dealer. I bought it on that forum thinking it was a solid coin. In hand I really like it. PCGS did not and called it cleaned which is utter nonsense. I have sent it to NGC now instead.

    After I wrote my prior post, I checked my eBay Watch List and realized it is the coin I was tracking. I did forget though that it was included in Cayon's Subasta Extrordinaria from last year.

    Your picture looks better than the one in the eBay listing. The reason you gave me is the reason I did not contact the seller to make an offer. I'm not saying it shouldn't grade, only that I find both TPG's inconsistent with this design.

    NGC has graded a lot more pillars than PCGS and I have only submitted to them. I have been surprised in both directions on my prior submissions to them and find their inconsistency very irritating. I disagree with their definition of "market acceptable" as it makes no sense to apply a US centric standard used for mostly common coinage. It should be evident that when presumably only a handful exist in any comparable quality, that a coin such as this one obviously is market acceptable to those who buy it such as both of us. There is nothing actually wrong with the coin. Hope you can get it into a numerical holder.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m not worried about getting it into a holder as it is a very wholesome EF. I’m very disappointed with PCGS in grading the coin but we will see what NGC says. I’ll report back!

  • EddiEddi Posts: 49 ✭✭✭

    That is a lovely example of a Lima mint 4 Reales!
    Lima 4 Reales are quite scarce as a type, as others have noted. As a type, they are scarcer than the 8 Reales and 1/2 Real. Not sure about the 1 Real denomination.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Eddi said:
    That is a lovely example of a Lima mint 4 Reales!
    Lima 4 Reales are quite scarce as a type, as others have noted. As a type, they are scarcer than the 8 Reales and 1/2 Real. Not sure about the 1 Real denomination.

    Yes, as a denomination, they are the most scarce. 1Rs are quite difficult as well

  • WCCWCC Posts: 764 ✭✭✭✭

    Lima 4R are by far the scarcest from this mint, as a denomination. Probably it's mostly from the much lower mintages.

    Even though the mintages are higher, Lima 4R seem to be scarcer than Guatemala overall and only somewhat more common in higher grades. The combined TPG data shows about an equal number in XF or better. Gilboy and Patterson show somewhat more better quality for Lima.

    The 1/2 real are by far the most common, once again as a denomination while I'd rate the 2R somewhat scarcer than the 1R at least in better quality if not overall.

    The other difference that is apparent is between Ferdinand VI and Charles III. Except for the 4R, Charles III is a lot scarcer. I have duplicates of better quality examples for several dates for both the 1/2R and 1R from the 1750's but have been unable to find hardly any Charles III that are even decent. The mintages aren't remotely low either. as one example, Yonaka reports 1,040,000 for the 1767 1/2R but unless the ANS has a "high quality" example, I'm not aware of any collection that has ever had one.

  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Posts: 1,013 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2020 11:23AM

    @Boosibri

    Any update on this 4R pillar?
    I ask because there is one coming up for auction (raw), not your example, and I'm tempted but can't gauge the coin's quality overall from the photograph's provided.
    I would like to get one to straight grade here or across the street, something in low VF or higher, non details, would be fine for me, but this European auction house seems to sell a lot of this material that would not grade straight here in the U.S.

    1762

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭✭

    XF Details on two tries

  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Posts: 1,013 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2020 3:16PM

    @Boosibri said:
    XF Details on two tries

    Ok, thank you.

    I felt that your coin looked very wholesome and would straight grade.
    I guess the water is still too deep for me to take a chance on trying to purchase raw examples with my limited knowledge of columnarios .

    • edited because I must have been cross eyed when I posted originally.
  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 8,383 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:
    XF Details on two tries

    Cleaning or something else?

    Surprising for the XF grade, imo. Back into an envelope it goes for a few more years.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sitting in an envelope on top of the water heater now

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