Ebay tire kickers and non-refundable PP fee
derryb
Posts: 37,667 ✭✭✭✭✭
Now that Paypal no longer returns its fee when an ebay buyer returns an item to the seller, buyers who like to get a free look at a coin in hand at the expense of the seller (non-refundable PP fee) have become a drag on sellers who, like most, will recoup their expenses with higher prices.
And yes, the seller shouldn't have offered to take returns but consider this:
- without a return policy, the tire kicker would find another excuse to return the item. A "not as described" return will ding the seller's defect score with ebay.
- sellers who try to maintain high standards and become a Top Rated ebay seller with all the perks are required to accept returns.
Yes, returns are a cost of doing business on ebay, but now that there is a dollar cost it might be a good idea for us ebayers here to share the ID of the tire kickers. I am not claiming these buyers are in any way dishonest or that they are breaking or even bending ebay's rules. I am claiming that they we can reduce our exposure to them simply by sharing our experience, and their ID, in this thread.
While I have no problem honoring my return policy (the latest one is $57 non refundable PP expense for a PCGS properly graded coin) I waste no time blocking the buyer from any further purchases. This latest return claimed "changed my mind."
Edited to remove ebayer ID.
For those who would like to avoid the expense of him changing his mind on a purchase with them PM me for his ebay ID.
Feel free to share similar experiences in this thread where you will hopefully offer to provide ID via PM. I for one welcome the opportunity to avoid the tire kickers on ebay.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Comments
Publicly blacklisting people here always goes over well.
Collector, occasional seller
Where is that big cartoonish explosion poof image
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
That is NOT my ID on ebay. lol
bob
I someone "buy" a cac gold coin last week who admitted he made a mistake costing me over $22 in paypal and shipping. I asked them to compensate me for the item, no response. He bought two other items at around or below my cost, probably thought that was doing me a favor. Really bad manners unfortunately rarely gets punished on ebay.
I see a lot of sellers doing 2x or more the usual numismatics business during the covid shutdowns. I called paypal and was told they are returning 3% on voided transactions, but someone there said they aren't.
.
Is this what you are looking for?
Edited OP to remove ebayer ID, but will provide it via PM. The tire kickers need to get the message that their bids are not welcome.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Thanks for the heads up. I just looked and that ID's already on my BBL and has been for a while.
I'm currently dealing with a guy who bid, won, and now says he "bid by accident". When I told him that I know it's impossible to accidentally bid with one click on eBay he changed his story to how he was out of work and after winning, only then did he decide that he shouldn't be buying frivolous things...but asked for a couple days to come up with the money (all $90 of it). We'll see how it plays out. I guess if that's the worst thing I have to deal with... Oh, wait. We're still considered a non essential business and have to keep the storefront closed through at least the end of the month. Oh well; food's overrated and I need to lose a few pounds anyway.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
If I get habitual returners , or people returning for crappy reason, I block em
Had a guy that bought a few small gold pieces few weeks ago, returned them after a week because he found a better price. I am not the one who bid that amount, he did, yet I lose the shipping fee and paypal fee. Blocked
I do see your point though, losing 3% on a big sale is a huge hit.
And really it's actually 6% since you get to pay that 3% again on the next transaction.
Collector, occasional seller
Sold a gold coin ( this is the fourth time in two years) Buyer receives coin then disputes credit card charge. Keeps coin and gets money back. Pay Pal assures me that as a seller I'm protected. Great. The problem is they already got paid their fees and now hold my money for up to 75 days. I'm sick of scammers.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Would love to post names, numbers and addresses. So tempted.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Blocked.....thanks for the heads up.
I listed a coin at my best price. Potential buyer asks "what is your best price?" blocked.
I knew it would happen.
Ebay has sucked for sellers for a long time now. That is why I stopped selling on ebay. There are some real bottom-feeders on there.
There are a thousand good sellers to every bad seller. There are a thousand good buyers to every bad buyer. Let's weed out those bad buyers even if we have to do it with PMs.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
I have had a couple blocked buyers contact me recently after listings have ended- here's the latest:
"WHY WON'T YOU ALLOW ME TO BID ON YOUR ITEMS? WHAT DID I DO? WHY CAN'T YOU FIX THIS!"
Because you're yelling at me.
Yep that's the one lol A bit surprised that this has lasted this long, Heather must be taking the morning off.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
This was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. After the 2 year old costing me PP fees I changed my terms...and according to ebay they will work..though knock on wood it hasn't been tested yet.
I went from 30 day free returns to 14 day buyer pays for returns and added this to all my listings:
All returns & cancellations are subject to a 3% restocking fee. There is no way around this. This is due to Paypal's changes in their user agreement**
Edit to add....didn't paste correctly, IT's red and in a very large font.
BST
I've had two of these "ooops, I pushed the button by mistake" lately.
It's only cost me 20 bucks total though.......
You're double counting. You were always going to pay 3%
I block all bidders who return or cancel. First time. No repeats. Fortunately, it's rare, but I'm not giving someone a second chance.
I had one a couple weeks ago. I was selling a partial sheet of 1976 duck stamps. Guy makes me an offer 20% back of my BIN price. I've had it listed for 6 months, so I accept. He pays. Then cancels. He emails me and says "you should have said catalogue value not face value".
I respond, "I didn't write anything using either term".
He says, "sorry that was meant for another seller".
LOL. I said, "cancel completed, but I hope you understand that since you cost me $2 in non-refundable PayPal fees I have to block you."
He says, "that's okay, at least I learned that Ducks stamps have expiration dates."
I laughed and relisted it. No pointing in letting the 0.1% idiots ruin it.
I block every buyer that return. Don’t want to deal with them any more. Think about this; if you sell a 20k coin you will lose 600 plus shipping and insurance
We just recently had a posting from someone who got ripped off on BST and couldn't even file a complaint on PayPal because they used Friends & Family.
The only reason BST seems safer is that there isn't the volume that exists on eBay for the 0.1% scammers to be visible. It might be a little safer if you stick to people you know.
PM me this list... I would be more than happy to block them. Thanks !!!
How many items has this person returned?
What determines if someone is a tire-kicker vs. a regular person returning an item?
Same here. My last return was a couple of months ago. The coin was hairlined, noted as such in the description and the hairlines were visible in the picture. Buyer wanted to return it because the hairlines "seemed worse in person".
I figure I'm doing these buyers a favor by blocking them- after all, if they can't depend on my pictures and description being accurate, they're better off buying from somebody else. Right?
All coins are not all widgets. Are your pictures as good as they can be? I’ll return a coin if it doesn’t fit for me.
Wouldn’t you all be deriding any dealer who had a zero return, sight unseen policy on their website? It’s unheard of for dealers. If you want to avoid this hassle then spend the money, build a website, market yourself and build a client base.
Latin American Collection
Why people continue to use eBay and PayPal I'll never know. At 2.9% that can translate in 100s or 1000s of lost dollars for a single larger transaction. With margins growing ever thinner, I don't see how the model can remain profitable when you factor in huge losses for potentially frivolous returns.
Interesting. I'm guessing this isn't how eBay anticipated their return policy working.
Can you suggest a viable alternative?
Yep certainly goes both ways. Many sellers juice their pictures representing a coin as something that it is not. I work hard for my $$$ and I kick the tires on EVERYTHING I purchase. Doesn't matter if it's at eBay, Walmart, or the car dealer.
PS: Don't be blaming the consumer, blame the venue you chose to use to sell for keeping and raising all your fees.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Square doesn't charge a return fee. They do however, charge higher upfront fee.
All depends on your volume and how many returns you really get.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
It is called the best business model to build a profitable coin business.
eBay works perfectly
It can be tough make money on the Bay. It probably takes a markup 40 pct or more over cost for it to really work (or for that matter make it in the coin business). This is achievable on small ticket items under $300 but on big ticket / tight spread items over $500 - $1000 (I do those at shows) can be really tough.
Frankly without the bids or metals going up I don’t see how anybody makes money in the biz these days.
eBay selling expense consists of eBay fees, PayPal, and shipping. You need to add up all 3. Then you can see what it really costs as pct of sales operate there. Make a Sales Journal by item recording selling price, cost, gross margin. Also input the PayPal fee (Calc) and what eBay charged you for shipping. Then you can add those 2 bottom line totals to what eBay says your fees are in their email. Break down their email to separate out the fixed cost portion (store) and the variable cost portion their fees for further analysis. Next what are the monthly fixed non eBay costs of the business. Now you have your data for your markup equation. Just add your commission.
Boosibri, are you saying here that you will return a coin, even though the posted pictures are perfect and leave nothing to the imagination? Like showing all possible details and not through a 2x2 or slab. and not just small spot with tons of background.
well it is still possible that perhaps something is missed on an image, or not visible the way you like it. your choice would always be to ask for more images.
There is very obviously no harm or scam intended by the seller, but if I understand your posting correctly, you will be the judge and will return any coin for any of your personal reasons, even though the seller is a completely straight fwd seller and not a scammer.
I hope I totally misunderstood what you are trying to say.
AND if I did, I am sorry, as I did not mean any harm with my questions, just a clarification.
I find a markup of 20% just fine even with free shipping, of course those bogus returns would or will kill that business model.
Here's an idea.
Sell coins that people want to keep.
Give your clients excellent photography of your coins for sale.
What will this get, very, very close to ZERO returns
It would be very easy for FeeBay to eliminate a ton of claims with a simple SW change
all they need to do is this:
when you put an item in your watch, a note will flash up for you to agree to amongst other conditions, saying that you will only be able to bid if you 100% agree and are aware of the sellers and FeeBays conditions.
until you click ok... you can not continue and you can not bid!
same if you go straight to bid now. it would deterre many buyer-scammers.
However, that would not be in either Ebay's nor paypal's $$$$$ interest... I guess.
Now, if you agree, it would boil down to the buyer or seller being honest
>
Of course if pictures are perfect then there is no excuse but how many pictures are perfect. A Trueview may make a picture look colorful and vibrant and in fact it is dark and lifeless. Tilt the coin in the light and there is a patch of hairlines or hidden tooling you can only see at the right angle. There is nothing like seeing a coin in hand. I buy few coins and I return very few of those coins but if something doesn't meet my standards I will absolutely return it.
Most dealers offer a no questions asked 7 day return privileged and what dealer will buy a coin sight unseen. Every person has different tastes and standards to hold up. Habitual returners I get being unwanted and worth blocking but the folks in this thread seem to have a inclination to ban everyone who ever returns a coin due to the economics of eBay without accepting that this being a cost of doing business within the very nature of the hobby.
The issue that people have with eBay is the cost to leverage the platform and the frictional costs for things like returns. I come back to my original point, where else do you get thousand of eye balls on your listing with no upfront fixed cost for creating you own infrastructure.
Latin American Collection
This
Latin American Collection
You are right, I guess a better way to say it is now the fee is 6% instead of 3%.
That is a wonderful idea.... Unfortunately most sellers aren't there yet. I've had to pass on many potentially nice coins because of crappy seller pics. I'm sure derryb's pictures are fine, he might not be up to the point of reading potential customer's minds yet though.
Collector, occasional seller
thank you
I do agree to most points. Hairlines should be listed in the description. Or, real good images would show these.
so, there is another question to which I will start a new subject... we shall see what will happen
have a super day, we finally got some sun here on Vancouver Island.
Vancouver Island, how lucky!!!
Latin American Collection
Not too hard. If someone is polite and either covers the cost of the return (the coin wasn't the right fit for them, so they covered shipping/fees) or if I genuinely made a mistake in the description, no problem. If someone claims SNAD because the return will be free, but I disagree with their claim, they're gone. I just had a buyer return a multi-coin lot because one of the coins was cleaned. Nope, and when I looked at my email, I saw some dumb questions he had sent me some number of years ago. I probably should have blocked him from those questions, but after he went one for one being a bad buyer, he's gone. Had an international buyer who returned a coin that was described just right (and had a very clear photo) who used a SNAD to return it. With international shipping costs included, the return cost over $100. He admitted he returns coins regularly for the same reason, and also said he doesn't look at coins under anything but low ambient light, which can certain affect their appearance. He's not sticking around.
Not apples to apples. A dealer can set whatever policy works for them for their website, and I guarantee if you become a problem buyer, they'll blacklist you. Maybe they'll be willing to cover return shipping once or twice. Maybe you're a long-term buyer and they know some amount will come back because you're picky, but you buy frequently enough that it's worth it. The problem with eBay is that you're in their sandbox with their rules. When the rules enable buyers to do things that incur significant costs and you can't create a policy to get around it, you find a different way. On eBay, the only other way is blocking a buyer.
I use a place called ecrater.com ...it's NOT a auction site and has been around a very long time...just unknown.
and facebook, twitter...etc. It has a option to get better placement in Google searches if you can justify the cost.
I have had this for many years. You only pay them when it goes through their marketplace and then 2.9% w/PP and CCs use available along with other options of payment. It doesn't cost me a dime to leave something sitting there for years, which sadly some things have haha. It also has a mail matrix system that isn't too bad to figure out and good community support forum.
If you have a direct link to a singular item (sample) in your store there is no fee, only what PP may charge you.
I have only recently started to put some of my coins on it.
Only drawback is that you need to do your own marketing, like in my sig here, coin sale forums
Hope this helps
Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value.
One tire is too many when there are great pics and a PCGS opinion. Besides, way to many buyers on ebay to be losing paypal fees more than once because of the same buyer. Block 'em.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Why does Walmart take credit cards?
Therein lies your answer.
They probably did. They model themselves on Amazon. Amazon will boot multiple returners. I'd also bet they would suspend someone who returned the very first item they bought.
Look, I LOVE PCGS but there's a ton of coins in every TPG's holders that don't meet my personal standards. I have always regarded sellers who justify a no-return policy because so-and-so certified the coin as laughable. This whole bad actors on eBay debate really cuts both ways. There are a lot of sellers I won't deal with simply because they project an attitude of not being buyer-friendly. No returns on coins is almost an automatic deal-breaker. If I REALLY want the coin, I might message them stating I'd cover all transaction and shipping costs if they'll allow a return, but it'd have to be a mighty special item. For generic stuff, there are too many other dealers out there to deal with curmudgeons.