Gold ownership in US post 1933?
zski123
Posts: 256 ✭✭✭
When Roosevelt called in gold in the 1930's, did that also include foreign gold?
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zski123
Posts: 256 ✭✭✭
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All gold bullion including foreign gold coins had to be turned into the government. Coins with numismatic value were exempt.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Much gold was turned in....but from stories I heard years ago, much was also hidden and kept. There are still some stories of gold that was buried due to that edict, and not recovered. Have not found any yet
Cheers, RickO
I'm glad it was hidden, else we wouldn't have these beauties to collect, now...
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RickO,
I heard a story about an old farm house that got demolished into the basement and covered with a parking lot.
Something shiny was storied to be buried in the basement dirt.
Yes. Thank God for that part of it
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Many of these gold coins came back from European banks and to a lesser extent South American banks. For some reason they didn't want to exchange their gold for inflated paper money during the initial gold recall.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Just to clarify, individuals were always allowed to retain up to a hundred bucks face value of gold coins, which could be five double eagles, but just as often was a hundred single dollar coins, and it was commonplace for people to have those dollar coins in their pockets, as last ditch pocket pieces, or to use as little gifts, or to gamble with. In addition, rare coins were exempt from the confiscation order, although some people turned them in anyway. Also exempt were small amounts of gold used for dentistry, as jewelry and for artistic purposes.
Thanks to all contributors. A few years back, I participated in an auction of a gentlemen who melted his gold and created fake 8 Escudo cobs, candelabra (22Kt) and Mayan figurines. He also had a great deal of gold shot which was his work in progress I guess. I bought the Escudos all weighing 35+ grams.
I can't imagine anyone voluntarily turning their gold into government today. LOL
Well many turned in their personal property back in the 30's. Look at New Zealand and Canada (soon to happen), they are loyal subjects and are being told to turn their firearms in...and they're lining up to do so LOL.
Goes to show you should keep quiet about any collection you may have. "loose lips sink ships".
Civil disobedience can be peaceful.... and it sure kept railroaders and bankers at bay ,until the G-men became thugs working for them. Then they became 'Gold hunters". Isn't it strange how the government took it ? Then they waited 50 years. before selling it to us (with a huge premium to spot) through the Treasury department; which (for years) was making it for commerce.
except it wasn't bullion. It was, and is money.
These were supposed to be turned in, too. I’m glad they kept them also:
Very cool to compliment my gold type set.
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And this...
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individuals were always allowed to retain up to a hundred bucks face value of gold coins, which could be five double eagles, but just as often was a hundred single dollar coins
I thought that there was a limit of 5 coins of any specific coin if it qualified as collectable, i.e. minted prior to 1933. I didn't know that the limit was determined by face value.
The executive order was effective in destroying the wealth of people who owned gold instead of keeping their money "in the system". FDR revalued gold from $20/oz to $35/oz AFTER the confiscation had taken place - essentially targeting one group of people arbitrarily for money - the federal government picking the winners and losers. Sound familiar?
It happened once, and it can happen again. Any illusion that holding pre-1933 coinage as a guard against a future confiscation is just wishful thinking, in my opinion. They can wreck havoc anywhere and any way they choose, if they think that they can get away with it.
I knew it would happen.
@jmski52 said "It happened once, and it can happen again."
I don't disagree with that, but, if the Federal government tried to confiscate gold, I doubt that they would see much compliance this time. I personally am pretty strict about following rules, but there's no way I'd turn in my gold! I suspect that most members of this board, and a good part of the general public, feel the same way.
Given the climate in 2020 and the foreseeable future, the risk of confiscation is not nil, but it is very small.
The government would first have to confiscate all the guns if they would ever hope to confiscate all the gold.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I don't think there was a limit. Collectors could put together sets of every pre-1933 US gold coin ever issued. And most would have run out of money before completion...especially in the $20 series. 5 of each date/mint mark. That's thousands of coins in the US gold series. What the public didn't know was that they should all become "collectors." Only the big time collectors like William Woodin, John Pittman, Eliasberg, Newman, Bass, and others figured this out and kept on buying gold coins through the 40's and 50's. The restrictions were lifted further in the 1950's. And by mid-1960's you could even own most pre-1964 foreign gold coins. Stacks of BU $20 Saints were common at coin shows in the late 1950's through early 1970's...typically around $42/coin.
Collector / Attorney David Ganz has written extensively on the subject. His articles on the Gold Reserve Act and Confiscation are easily found on line. The bottom line was that in 1934, "all" pre-1933 US Gold coins were considered "collectible/rare" and of "special significance." Per the Govt's own interpretation, none had to be turned in by collectors.
Thanks for the detail and the references, roadrunner. I thought it was something like that.
A cynical part of me thinks that there must've been some gold coin collectors in Congress or a personal acquaintance of FDR to warrant such a special carve-out in the executive order, similar to the carve out on the insider trading prohibition that Congress enjoys today.
It would be interesting to know how FDR came to the conclusion he did about certain gold coin exemptions.
I remember looking at gold coinage in the Red Book and Blue Book growing up, but I never heard of anyone in town owning a gold coin, and I never really understood why until I became immersed in coin collecting a few years later.
I used to enjoy David Ganz's contributions in Coin World on the legal issues of coin ownership.
Stacks of BU $20 Saints were common at coin shows in the late 1950's through early 1970's...typically around $42/coin.
My first gold coin was a double eagle, bought in 1977. I don't remember the actual cost - probably something under $300, but it was a thrill to own. Before I knew it, I was buying bags of Morgans and mini-futures contracts. Ha, those were interesting times.
I knew it would happen.
I can remember seeing common date Saints in a dealer case ca 1976 or so in the mid $40s price range and thinking why would someone pay say $46 for a 1928 $20.
Live and learn.
As for a gold confiscation, anything can happen at the point of a gun, especially if there is no gun to point back.
It must have been earlier than 1976; by the end of 1973, gold had already passed $ 100 per ounce.
Even by the early 70s, before the price of gold rose, “BU” double eagles were advertised in coin world for around $60. Perhaps they could be obtained at a show for less. Common dates that would have been described as “Choice” or “Very Choice” in a Stacks auction would have gone for more.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
Look no further than FDR's own Treasury Secretary in 1933....William Woodin....a major coin collector. Same guy who around 1912 had owned the 1933 Judd 1776 $50 Double Eagle Pattern...and traded it to the US Govt for a trunk load of rare patterns including the gold Amazonian set. He was prime time 20 yrs before his stint with FDR. Now, I don't know if he gave FDR the input for the "gold coin collector" exemption, but he was right there with access. I recall reading an article that credited another person for that clause. But, certainly Woodin was in the mix. Unfortunately, he died in 1934. Had he not, maybe the hunt for all the 1933 DE's wouldn't have occurred....after all...he supposedly "owned" one of them. You can't make this stuff up.
Large quantities of gold coins and gold certificates likely escaped to Europe to avoid confiscation.
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Here’s what’s not mentioned in the history books of this period…
The U.S. government made a serious inquiry into all the mines and gold dealers on:
Who sold gold, and
To whom the gold was sold before the executive order.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
Coin shows in the 50s must've been awesome! The gold, the coins, the cars, the women!
Another little known fact is that during the ban you could apply in writing for an exemption to buy post-1933 foreign gold coins as collectables. A member of the forum (not sure who) went through the process without success. I imagine few, if any, applications were approved.
In the long run, there's more money in taxing gold (ownership and transactions) than there is in owning gold.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong