Of Discouraging New Collectors?
BLUEJAYWAY
Posts: 10,147 ✭✭✭✭✭
Do you think that is what happens when the new blood enters the coin world and sees all the debates about grading? Specifically in regard to perceived inconsistencies in grading, the "crack out game", the different TPG choices, etc. In addition age old debates about AT/NT, counterfeiting,overpriced,over graded coins. It would seem that all of this unloaded on a new collector might serve as more of a deterrent than an encouragement to entering the coin world. How do you prevent said perceived discouragement? What say you?
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Didn’t stop me.
I’m quite sure that without TPG grading, the dialogue here about grades, CAC, new mint products and such..... I’d have never ventured beyond a few quasi-bullion trinkets. Along the way I’ve been burned, learned a ton, made a bunch of friends, shown my ignorance more than once, and lost and made money. Wouldn’t do it any differently if I did it again.
I entered the hobby in 2007 after spending two years researching it. I knew it was messy when I bought my first coin.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
If anything, this forum helped rather than hinder me for collecting. I have to admit it is confusing watching the changes in what is in at the moment. One year colorful coins will be the rage and then we all come to our senses and wonder where was the color before this. Then the colorful coins are out and the "unmolested" coins are raging again. Other than that I learn from here all the time and have sharpened (I think) an idea of what to look for when collecting.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Many coin forums don't have the same debates but I think most of the coins posts on those are raw.
If you're not spending much money, the debates here may not add anything, but if you are, they are essential.
I don't think it would discourage nascent collectors who are truly interested. It may discourage folks who envision coins as a get rich quick hobby, however.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
True. Look at how quickly most of the "make your fortune from pocket change" new collectors who have visited this forum in the past year disappear. As soon as they realize that they can't make any money on their "finds" they lose interest and disappear.
Counterfeits are the biggest deterrent, some are really good and it makes buying expensive coins questionable for the less experienced like me. It helps to buy slabbed coins or buy from reputable dealers. I didn’t like slabs before because of the cost but it’s a necessity for me with higher priced coins now.
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The young people of today know everything without being educated.
having thick skin really helps here, but so does the right attitude. more often than not newcomers fall into two categories: collectors who are experienced and have just found or finally joined this site --- and --- collectors who are ignorant, want help and argue with members when the don't like what they're told. the former usually stay and blend in easily, the latter leave quickly and aren't really missed.
I have to disagree with your generalization. Not every new forum member that is new to the hobby is argumentative when they don't like what they hear. Some are genuinely appreciative for the help they get here.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
In my opinion the biggest deterrant to coin collecting is the apparent abundance of scams, fraud, theft, and liars.
I find it disappointing that so many have the attitude that newbies need to know how to protect themselves or else its their own fault for getting ripped off.
There are some great tools and security features from TPG's, but maybe more support could be provided from our "community" as well. I have seen many threads where questionable ethics were debated instead of universally criticized. (E.g. I just paid $50 for a $1500 coin from someone who didnt know any better, score!).
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He didn’t say anything remotely close to “every new forum member that is new to the hobby is argumentative...”. He said “more often than not...”. And that sounds about right to me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In the old days before the third party grading services, many dealers and advanced collectors thought that new collectors needed to "pay their dues" or "pay for their education" by making expensive mistakes. Unfortunately many new collectors left the hobby after more experienced collectors and dealers took advantage of their ignorance.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Most hobbies that I have encountered over the years have many of the same areas of debate...fakes, quality, history etc.. We here on the forum, are immersed in the detail each day we visit...as well as when at shows, shops or clubs. New members, as in any hobby, are 'testing the water', either as an interest, or because they 'found this coin'...the former may grow into a collector, the latter, well.. usually they fade away since they were not really interested beyond their possession (be it found or inherited). Yes, other hobbies (sports cards, dolls, beanie babies, firearms, knives, figurines and art) all have their details, histories, counterfeits and quality standards... We are not special in that respect - most of us are just not aware - we would be the 'newbies' in those other fields. So, in answer to the original question... Yes, for some it will be discouraging, and they likely will lose interest. For others, it becomes part of the excitement, the acquisition of new knowledge, the challenge of learning....And those people, my friends, are us.
Cheers, RickO
You quoted me out of context by dropping the word "Not" from that quote. I still believe most new collectors come here to learn and become good members of our community. "More often than not" implies that most new collectors do not.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
You wrote “I have to disagree with your generalization. Not every new forum member that is new to the hobby is argumentative when they don't like what they hear...” That sounded to me as if you were implying he stated that every new forum member that is new to the hobby is argumentative when they don’t like what they hear. Apologies if that wasn’t what you were implying.
To me, “more often than not” means more than half the time, not necessarily the same as “most”. But maybe that’s a result of my legal background.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What I learned is that I need to stay in my lane. I have a rather narrow area in numismatics that I'm pretty competent. If I stray outside that area I know just enough to know I don't know much.
I don't think the peripheral issues impact new collectors one bit. I think they find their way through some kind of bug that sparked interest in coins, and the better informed new collectors will buy their first real coins graded by a top company to avoid most of the nonsense.
Not every new forum member that is new to the hobby is argumentative
--- equals ---
Every new forum member that is new to the hobby isn't argumentative
more often than not
--- equals ---
well, just what it says!!
but it really isn't worth arguing about, I think we all know what we both meant.
for my own part, I don't remember the forum names of anyone when they were new here, what I do remember is the drive-bye's who want help with an Inheritance or think they have struck it rich with a 1943 Copper Penny or some obscure Die Variety. they rarely accept their coin(s) value, as given by us, gracefully. they also don't tend to stay around. there are legions of them who have appeared during my time here.
I can say this much, I remember my very first post. it was in a thread where everyone was arguing about Coin Grading and the fact that they thought they knew more about grading than the graders at PCGS. I stated simply that "I would trust the graders at PCGS over forum members since they have examined more coins and have a better idea of what constitutes a grade" than most of the members at this site. I still believe that today. I was welcomed by some and thanked for my frankness. I was scorned by others and told that as a newbie I didn't know what I was talking about.
not much has changed in the intervening years with regards to how my comments are received!!
As soon as they realize that they can't make any money on their "finds" they lose interest and disappear.
Yes, all those "parking lot error" threads were interesting, to say the least, especially when the posters kept insisting their "errors" were real.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
I don't think so. A new collector will probably be buying low dollar raw coins and assessing grade based on their own opinion. Once they get into grading they will probably(should) have an authorized dealer helping them with it rather than opting for a collector's club membership right off the bat.
Collector, occasional seller
I think misinformation floating around youtube is a bigger problem. Put's stars and dollar signs in the new collector's eyes.
Collector, occasional seller
There are at least a dozen numismatic books that do that too.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
"Market grading" is much more about pricing than "grading". Since collectors can't agree on the value of most coins it just stands to reason that what we are calling "grading" will be a bone of contention. There are several ways around this for newbies but there are always risks with any individual coin or collectible. If one merely collects for pleasure mistakes won't be too bad and soon enough you'll acquire the knowledge to buy right. The real problem is trying to get full value when you sell but if you buy "right" enough this will work out as well.
Where markets are toughest is in moderns where few collectors have the courage and knowledge to buy raw coins. Eventually this will be an asset for collecting them but for now it's holding them back. In the long run the creme will always rise to the top. This layer at the top is far thicker than most people can imagine because demand is thin at the top and what's below is being wasted. It's harder than ever to see the supply and demand here.
New collectors I know are informed and gravitate to the area they are interested in. I advise them to stay in a sane budget and set a risk limit (per coin). Monitoring market performance along with secure, adequate storage is important too.
Probably incentivizing moving to the dark side. US market has been sliced, diced and minced in about everyway possible. Maybe someone will set up a service to put their stickers on coins that have passed CAC.
As a kid, before TPG services came along I was ripped off in every conceivable way by doctored coins. Yet, here I am. I think we need to look elsewhere than the pitfalls if we want to try to figure out why collecting US coins may be less popular today, if indeed that is the case. (Not to say that some new collectors have been put off, just that the messy part of collecting isn't new.)
I am new here and plan to learn more. In 2005, I inherited my fathers coin collection - very divers stuff - US, foreign, tokens, some slabs, ancients, plus a very nice library. I'm a member of other forms and a coin club. I like to read different opinions and ask questions. I've taken all the ANA Correspondence courses and attended a grading seminar at the ANA, an authentication seminar taught by Brian S. and one at Adelphi University with my father before that. I still have a lot to learn and thank goodness for the Grading services. Since I was dragged into collecting by my dad I think I avoide most of the problems many new collectors go thru. I have found two universal things to be 100% true. Knowledge is power so read the book and grading is subjective.
very divers stuff
shipwreck coins??
with the "Library" and courses you've taken there's a chance you are ahead of most newcomers and will reap the benefits in the future while lesser informed collectors try to catch up.
I think perhaps the general dorkiness could also be a discouraging factor to new collectors...jeez, I walk into one of the local shows around here and I immediately make note of where each exit is located.
😬
Don’t think the grading or debate about grading and value of coins enters in nor discourages collectors as they first get into the hobby. They enter do to their interest, the memories of collecting with parents or for distraction from every day realities.
All of the nuances/items you mention, make it harder for new blood to want to stay in the hobby after there initial entry. You become overwhelmed by the ways you were convinced to overpay for coins. You try to figure out how to beat or survive in the system, then realize that the amount of Time to do that is not worth it....so other hobbies or interests become easier.
Buy a nice Jeep or convertible, take a nice ride....plan a vacation, get a pool, maybe a nice fire pit and garden area. Much easier to understand the cost and happiness. And you don’t have people or information repeatedly telling you that you didn’t get a good deal...
In the end, other pursuits have a better return on investment (both in time and money).
That said, the collector gene/dna is in many of us... We will dabble in the hobby, but taken it seriously or making it a priority, is severely hampered by the issues you mentioned.
Oops. I have some of them. They were brought up by Mel Fisher's divers.
The debates and analysis about those things in the OPs original post are sometimes downright awe inspiring. This forum stripped down and analyzed every possible aspect of that damn coin from the “JA said call me” thread. It was like a court and college at the same time. I know of no where else to get that varied a perspective and that deep an analysis. A very cool thing
It’s when debate and discussion turn into something like the comments I’ve quoted above that I think many new (and old) members get a little repulsed.
All of us made "mistakes" when we first started collecting. Hopefully, over the past 40 years I've minimized mine and/or made less costly errors. Anytime I encounter a neophyte at a show I try to offer assistance. More than anything, I stress
that all TPG coins of the same grade can be worth widely varying amounts of money. Anyone engaging in any hobby should
do so first and foremost for the enjoyment and education. If coins I buy increase in value, great. If not, I've still enjoyed the journey.
i might add most of those neophytes I've encountered appear to appreciate the information I share. Being a "newbie" can be overwhelming
My basis for creating this thread came from trying to enlist two friends into collecting coinage. I informed them of my above listed aspects of collecting. What to be aware of. Also the positives as I view them. One still could not be encouraged. The other still is content to be a bullion stacker. I will proceed with a friendly nudge here and there via educational means and promote the history/beauty of our early coinage. My bullion stacker friend was unaware that each of his silver dollar(s) each have more silver than 4 silver quarters. So at least that's a small step. I also alerted him to this site in hopes he can learn some things here. This will be a tall task what with the advent of the current health crisis.
If he likes bullion then why not nudge him to collect bullion?
There is a vast array of one ounce and other types of 999 that are beautiful and rare. There are various types of bullion that are even old.
And you might point out that those old silver coins you want him to collect ARE just old circulating bullion in most ways.
This hobby is a vast area of collecting requiring knowledge that would be used to make an educated purchase based on an amount of money that is affordable to one's discretionary spending or one's unlimited spending budget on coins.
Tp play the bullion market one should be familiar with how the stock market works and how world events affect precious metals.
The other major area of education is dealer interaction, learning and studying a dealer. To be a successful police office you need to study the criminal behavior, which is best by working in the jail for a few years before hitting the street, just as you should frequent some shows and watch, listen and talk and interact with dealers, big and small and even the mustard stained, especially the mustard stained.
Education is the key.
All this said, even the best make the wrong purchase, but with the proper tools and knowledge it can be a fun hobby, as long as you have the money to spend on your likes.
I saw seinfeld perform a few years ago. He was making jokes about where an audience member works. People were laughing and he pointed out ---every office is the same---the same guy who is the "kiss up" , same office romance, etc. Everyone thinks their office is different but its not. Thats why he could use this joke on any office worker and it worked
Same with our hobby. Every hobby has good guys, bad guys, jerks, valuable mentors, enjoyment, pitfalls, and learning curve. I dont think numismatics does any worse or better at helping the newbie (although i could make an argument that we do better...).
At the end of the day, we have all made it to this point and im sure others will follow.
Collectors of anything should have a very high threshold of discouragement.
This is “tuition”. I think one reason this may be the case is that it’s hard to do anything else absent more aggressive standards in marketplaces.
I think one big benefit of these forums over others is all the great photos, good layout and forum speed.
These put this forums way ahead of many others in my mind.
Quote from my 1964 Handbook of US Coins "Modern silver coins can often be cleaned with a paste consisting of baking soda and water without harming the coin." B&M's sold cleaned and whizzed coins as MS, and with collectors selling coins there were few other choices than B&M's where you would get "the highest price."
The TPG's have done much to identify counterfeits and problem coins. More information is good, and constructive debate is good. Without the internet the hobby would basically be shut down with the pandemic.
Don't whitewash it. They deserve to know the truth.
I sell slabbed 1oz silver coins both US & World MS69-70 at shows at cost plus fair, conservative move it fast markup from one of my cases that also has currency. Many new collectors buy these and they buy attractive pieces like the Mexico Onza and Somolia Elephant. Got Armenia Noas Ark or Star Wars Darth Vader 1oz silver? These coins have more silver than classic silver dollars plus usually cheaper. Generally these people have less than $100 spend. I also have a binder of sheets of collector coins in addition to the hundreds of slabs I bring. One fellow bought some graded PMG Mexico revolutionary currency. Another wanted some gold PCGS 69 DCAM $5 AGE for him and his son.
The classic US coin market is very complex with its grading, holder, sticker sub sets. Furthermore in most cases this is too expensive a project for most new collectors nor is it material interesting to them. Eventually new collectors may gravitate to it once income improves. One fellow wants put together set of $2.50 Indians but can’t afford a single one yet. Bullion dealers were doing a brisk business and a dealer who does 100 pct raw stuff had people crowded around his table looking thru binders of collector coins and a deal of 6 world coins for a dollar was a hot seller. A fellow with about 100 circ rolls of common date Walkers and Franklin Halves was selling these for about BV plus 10 or 15pct. From an estate he recently purchased - they were selling fast.
This is a hobby for people who enjoy intricacies and building a base of knowledge. The instant gratification crowd won’t stick around long.
I think the same way.
Pete
A BAKER'S DOZEN. At least.
Some are even legit:
Zoins,
Investment guides to the coin market are woefully insufficient. If all one had to do was read a few numismatic investment books, there would be lots of coin collectors who got rich through coin trading. Most coin collectors lose money, for various reasons.
I have a lot of numismatic books, but have yet to run across one that comes close to what a novice collector needs to know, just to protect himself. Investors need to know much more, particularly how the business end of the hobby functions. A serious problem with pitching coins as investments is that ROI is what matters to real investors, who cannot think like collectors (been there, done that) and fall in love with their coins. The term collector-investor is an oxymoron.
With perhaps one exception, numismatic investment books have been written by dealers. There is a reason for that. It is called advertising.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]