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In the days when gold coins actually circulated would heavily worn examples be discounted?

291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,896 ✭✭✭✭✭

Has anyone ever read anything about the actual usage of US gold coins that would indicate that well worn specimens would have been accepted for less than face value?

All glory is fleeting.

Comments

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,640 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've read about this with sovereigns, but I don't know that I have for US coinage.

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 22,612 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've read they could be turned in for new coins at the mint.

  • isaiah58isaiah58 Posts: 385 ✭✭✭

    When they circulated, wasn't it pretty much the same as today? That is, if I put a brand new $5 bill on the counter or a ragtag one, the store still takes the $5. If someone plucked their half eagle down to pay for their purchase, the store took it.

    I am sure that banks handed them out the same way. I am also sure that astute collectors would ask their bank for brand new coins. Or it they were a coin for a gift, someone might ask for a new one. Otherwise, no one would have really cared or thought about it.

  • DrizztDrizzt Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭

    I believe face value was more than melt....wasn't it??

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,896 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @isaiah58 said:
    When they circulated, wasn't it pretty much the same as today? That is, if I put a brand new $5 bill on the counter or a ragtag one, the store still takes the $5. If someone plucked their half eagle down to pay for their purchase, the store took it.

    I am sure that banks handed them out the same way. I am also sure that astute collectors would ask their bank for brand new coins. Or it they were a coin for a gift, someone might ask for a new one. Otherwise, no one would have really cared or thought about it.

    This was the age of hard money, not the 21 st century.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • CoinHoarderCoinHoarder Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I once heard or read, that gold was mostly held by banks, and rarely used by the public. I have no idea if that is true or not.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I understand there was circulated gold in the west for a while... though it was not common pocket change....And it certainly did not command the value it does today.... Cheers, RickO

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,611 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @isaiah58 said:
    When they circulated, wasn't it pretty much the same as today? That is, if I put a brand new $5 bill on the counter or a ragtag one, the store still takes the $5. If someone plucked their half eagle down to pay for their purchase, the store took it.

    I am sure that banks handed them out the same way. I am also sure that astute collectors would ask their bank for brand new coins. Or it they were a coin for a gift, someone might ask for a new one. Otherwise, no one would have really cared or thought about it.

    Back then coins were not legal tender, they were government assayed lumps of metal. The intrinsic value equaled the face value.

    That is also why they receded the edge of coins: so you couldn't shave metal and spend them at face value.

  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Discounting was a tricky business for a typical merchant. This was even more problematic during the colonial period (all circulating gold back then was foreign). See the attached file.

    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • SmudgeSmudge Posts: 9,208 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wasn’t there a thread a while back about them being stamped with an L for lightweight?

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,763 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Probably not.

  • Wahoo554Wahoo554 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @isaiah58 said:
    When they circulated, wasn't it pretty much the same as today? That is, if I put a brand new $5 bill on the counter or a ragtag one, the store still takes the $5. If someone plucked their half eagle down to pay for their purchase, the store took it.

    I am sure that banks handed them out the same way. I am also sure that astute collectors would ask their bank for brand new coins. Or it they were a coin for a gift, someone might ask for a new one. Otherwise, no one would have really cared or thought about it.

    Back then coins were not legal tender, they were government assayed lumps of metal. The intrinsic value equaled the face value.

    That is also why they receded the edge of coins: so you couldn't shave metal and spend them at face value.

    Actually the intrinsic value exceeded the face value on several occasions, which resulted in mass meltings (e.g. fat head half eagles and early 1850’s silver coinage). Adjustments in gold and silver content were made from time to time in the 19th century to make it so that the intrinsic value of the gold and silver coinage was less than face value in order to prevent meltings.

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,793 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Absolutely. Believe they were heavily discounted worn coins that Izzy Switt traded for, in '33 ! It stands to reason.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,611 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Wahoo554 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @isaiah58 said:
    When they circulated, wasn't it pretty much the same as today? That is, if I put a brand new $5 bill on the counter or a ragtag one, the store still takes the $5. If someone plucked their half eagle down to pay for their purchase, the store took it.

    I am sure that banks handed them out the same way. I am also sure that astute collectors would ask their bank for brand new coins. Or it they were a coin for a gift, someone might ask for a new one. Otherwise, no one would have really cared or thought about it.

    Back then coins were not legal tender, they were government assayed lumps of metal. The intrinsic value equaled the face value.

    That is also why they receded the edge of coins: so you couldn't shave metal and spend them at face value.

    Actually the intrinsic value exceeded the face value on several occasions, which resulted in mass meltings (e.g. fat head half eagles and early 1850’s silver coinage). Adjustments in gold and silver content were made from time to time in the 19th century to make it so that the intrinsic value of the gold and silver coinage was less than face value in order to prevent meltings.

    Yes, that's true. That's why gold/silver standard doesn't work when commodity prices are free to fluctuate. But, the main point is that they traded as assayed metal...unlike FRNs

  • joeykoinsjoeykoins Posts: 14,787 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow, did not realize that Gold circulated. I always supposed that the value was the reason, even though, the value didn't compare to today's? Once again, for one of the reasons why we never see on the screen in old westerns, Gold coins, only Silver Morgans, on tables that they were gambling on? Hm-m-m? Interesting thread. 😎

    "Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!

    --- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,072 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've owned quite a few L marked gold coins. That is the best explanation I can think of for the countermark.

  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There was a case in the US northeast in the 1890s about a municipal trolley system refusing underweight dimes. I cannot find a reference to it - but if memory serves correctly the courts ruled in favour of the passenger/rider that the dime was legal tender even if it was worn down. Gold would have been a more interesting test case because obviously the difference in value is more substantial.

    In memory of my kitty Seryozha 14.2.1996 ~ 13.9.2016 and Shadow 3.4.2015 - 16.4.21
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,896 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @joeykoins said:
    Wow, did not realize that Gold circulated. I always supposed that the value was the reason, even though, the value didn't compare to today's? Once again, for one of the reasons why we never see on the screen in old westerns, Gold coins, only Silver Morgans, on tables that they were gambling on? Hm-m-m? Interesting thread. 😎

    In the 1978-79 mini-series "Centennial" there is a scene in which a Double Eagle is offered to a railroad baggage handler with the full knowledge that he will not be able to make change for the tip. As a result gets no tip.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jwitten said:
    I've owned quite a few L marked gold coins. That is the best explanation I can think of for the countermark.

    Curiously enough, I have never seen a single one in my years at ANACS or dealing.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 13,776 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2020 12:00PM

    Others would actually shave or chisel gold coins for the metal. They would carefully do this off of the edges of the coin. Thus the term, “Chiseler” was coined.

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • Wahoo554Wahoo554 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jwitten said:
    I've owned quite a few L marked gold coins. That is the best explanation I can think of for the countermark.

    Have any pics? Sounds interesting.

  • fishteethfishteeth Posts: 2,236 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The thread linked a few post up has lots of photos

  • ms70ms70 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2020 1:25PM

    @joeykoins said:
    Wow, did not realize that Gold circulated. I always supposed that the value was the reason, even though, the value didn't compare to today's? Once again, for one of the reasons why we never see on the screen in old westerns, Gold coins, only Silver Morgans, on tables that they were gambling on? Hm-m-m? Interesting thread. 😎

    My dad grew up in the age of circulating gold in Iowa. He said they never saw any because where they lived everyone was dirt poor farmers. Just copper & silver.

    Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.

  • AzurescensAzurescens Posts: 2,679 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BryceM said:
    Maybe it depends on the exact era. Our earliest gold coins didn't even have denominations on them. They were gold, and gold was money, and there was no difference.

    It's delicious tidbits of history and knowledge like this that keep this hobby thrilling.

  • AzurescensAzurescens Posts: 2,679 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2020 1:52PM

    @SaorAlba said:
    There was a case in the US northeast in the 1890s about a municipal trolley system refusing underweight dimes. I cannot find a reference to it - but if memory serves correctly the courts ruled in favour of the passenger/rider that the dime was legal tender even if it was worn down. Gold would have been a more interesting test case because obviously the difference in value is more substantial.

    My grandmother came to America in the early 1900s and was the fourth eldest with some of her sisters 10-15 years her senior.

    There absolutely 1000% was a huge issue with underweight dimes in new england. Grandma and grandpa ferried away tons of slick and wafer thin mercury and barber. I always thought it to be unusual, that for like 20 years, all their dimes were these little worn out discs. I hesitate to even say coins. For some time as a young boy, I thought old dimes were all just that way.

    I remember watching a video with her about the depression and there was a man recycling rubber and grabbing these hoses from kids and lightly resting them on scales and basically throwing dimes in their faces like bread crumbs at pigeons. There was a very real problem spending your day finding aluminum from gum wrappers and cans and whatever else, just to go and cash it in, and all the guy had left were the thin dimes so you ate less because you couldn't buy as much food with the paper thin little pieces of silver. She had known to be hyper aware of it from her older sisters having similar problems a few years back, when they were kids (edit: so yeah presumably 1890).

    These wafer dimes were preferable to use in transit because they were just so worthless. You'd rather the bus company take the hit than pay your milkman, who then has to make up the difference himself or absorb the cost, and manners mattered a lot more back then too. Pay the guy who mows your lawn with one of them and it could turn from paying a bill to being insulting. Using one could make you "appear more poor".

    I've held some that had next to nothing left, wondering how it could ever have been a coin, or acceptable in pocket change.

    I'm surprised it goes as far back as 1890 though. I was under the impression it was a brief window before and after the depression. I mean, some of the dime rolls grandpa put together in new England in 1940 some just had next to nothing left and this was a guy who bought gold regularly, so it's not as if they were the only things he could get. Grandma preferred the silver dimes because dimes are also generally lighter, but when she met dad at the grocery store, having the lighter ones was nice so her pockets didn't get too heavy cashing them out. It was best that it wasn't an obvious thing she was doing, but I guess those are luxuries you get when you handle all the money.

    Very weird to ever see something about this mentioned ever again, anywhere.

  • joeykoinsjoeykoins Posts: 14,787 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2020 1:59PM

    How ironic? I'm watching Jeopardy as I post. They actually have a whole category on the subject of, "GOLD"! Lol. :D

    "Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!

    --- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As I have mentioned before, I have my great grandfather's coin purse that had the money in it from when he passed away in 1922. It is amazing how worn out some of the coins from even 1906 were by then. Sometime I will get it out and photograph it and the contents and share here.

    In memory of my kitty Seryozha 14.2.1996 ~ 13.9.2016 and Shadow 3.4.2015 - 16.4.21
  • habaracahabaraca Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭✭✭

    by weight this coin is down 1 gram, so 3% overall not much at all really considering how she looks

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,611 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2020 7:02PM

    @joeykoins said:
    Wow, did not realize that Gold circulated. I always supposed that the value was the reason, even though, the value didn't compare to today's? Once again, for one of the reasons why we never see on the screen in old westerns, Gold coins, only Silver Morgans, on tables that they were gambling on? Hm-m-m? Interesting thread. 😎

    Actually, the value was probably higher back then in real terms. In the early 19th century, a common worker's wages were only a couple bucks per week. A $20 gold coin would have been probably 2 months wages. Even at $1700 per ounce, I think most people make more than $850 per month these days.

    https://libraryguides.missouri.edu/pricesandwages/1820-1829

  • AzurescensAzurescens Posts: 2,679 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Would Joe Gold get better business and more opportunities handling money if he consistently had better, tried-and-true, no-funny-business coinage?

    Would banks +/- any of it during large transactions?

    And yeah coins only lose like a little bit over time, so a little dust here and there from your pocket change is nothing. It's when you handle 25k of those coins in a day and knock a chip off a bunch, seven days a week, for years. All those little bits add up. Even scratching a few flakes a few hundred thousand times adds up significantly, when so little of it buys so much.

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