1964P PCGS MS68 Kennedy pop2/0

WWBillman

A rare opportunity.....To get ripped off according to the responses in this thread.

1964P PCGS MS68 Kennedy

dbldie55

It is only $4,997 more than I would pay for it. Wonder what year it was minted?

Monstavet

The picture sure makes that look like a cameo proof...

Bcsican

I have to agree with mon, is that a proof in a MS holder?

TomB

I believe there was a proof Kennedy offered on ebay last year that was mis-labeled by PCGS as MS68 and not PF 68 and when the seller was notified of it they pulled the auction. I'll bet that this is the same coin and this seller won't be so honest.

wondercoin

Well, as I mentioned on the other thread, many of the high grade Kennedys from 1964-67 are likely SMS coins or proofs Wondercoin

keithdagen

Tom,

You are correct in your memory. The second piece was a 64 SMS piece that was not labeled as such and is currently in a NGC SMS 69 holder. To the best of my knowledge, there are no legitimate MS-68's for this date.

cointime

I just saw this myself. My first impressions was a cam proof. Too nice for a MS coin. I bet if anyone asked for color picture, they will not be able to provide one. I remember Keith talking about this last year. Still a pretty coin.

Ken

Mark

If that coin is a mislabeled proof, then I think that is the sort of coin that PCGS ought to step up to the plate and repurchase. Once again, if it is a mislabeled proof, the existence of this coin sure does not help PCGS's reputation...at least in my opinion.

Mark

braddick

It's not. It's not. It's NOT!!
I've dealt with this coin before (my email has already been sent to the seller).
This is a clerical error on PCGS's part.
That is definitely a PROOF with the wrong insert (MS).

ALL SMS coins are now in SMS holders with NGC and PCGS. Also, all SMS 1964's are matte in appearance with a silvery gray hard look to them (satiny- NOT Prooflike!!).

keithdagen

I've dealt with this coin before (my email has already been sent to the seller).

So has mine

itsnotjustme

And if it's an error on PCGS's part, they should note it in the cert database. The cert number shows MS68.

keithdagen

Mark,

This is not covered under PCGS's guarantee. PCGS is not responsible for obvious labeling errors. In this case, whoever had this coin certified should have contacted PCGS when it was returned and PCGS correct the error.

WWBillman

So my question is, could my 1964D PCGS MS67 Kennedy really be a SMS coin?

dbldie55

If it is a proof, then it answers my question about what year it was minted. If it was Mint State, who knows.

Mark

Keith:

My point is that the existence of this coin is harmful to PCGS's reputation. And, it's not like it's an obvious error, eg, labeling a BTW commemorative as a WC commemorative. Though to some of us the coin might obviously be a PR, others might look at the PCGS grade, assume that PCGS knows what it is doing and therefore conclude that the coin is a well struck MS. So, while I think that PCGS should strive to buy back obvious errors, eg, my example of a mislabeled commemorative, I think this mislabeled PCGS coins is even more important to buy back and correct.

Of course, I agree 110% with your assessment that ideally the owner should freely return the coin to PCGS and ask for the label to be corrected. However, if I had purchased the coin for, say $4,000, I have to think I wouldn't be particularly eager to do so. I like to think I would return the coin because it's the right thing to do, but I sure hope I never have to cross that particular bridge.

Mark

dbldie55

The only time I have dealt with a proof in a Mint State holder, PCGS was more than happy to keep it in the wrong holder instead of paying to fix their error. And this would have been a $4-$500 error, not what I would expect this error would cost. (don't count on them doing the right thing)

Without knowing the circumstances surrounding its original slabbing, it is hard to just call it a label error that the owner should have caught. An obvious error was the MS65 Franklin half we sent in to be re-holdered, and it came back in a MS68 holder (when the pop was 2/0 for MS66). This was our responsibility to have corrected, which we did.

braddick

<< <i>So my question is, could my 1964D PCGS MS67 Kennedy really be a SMS coin? >>



SMS coins were not minted in Denver.
Now, should you ever want to sell that 1964-D- please let me know!

braddick

<< <i>And if it's an error on PCGS's part, they should note it in the cert database. The cert number shows MS68. >>


All error certs will do this. The GRADE (in this case, "MS"68) and the certificate insert number will match (the insert number referring to the type and grade).

I've yet to see a PCGS insert error that only had part of the insert wrong. Just FYI

Russ

Man, I hope that poor seller didn't buy that piece thinking it was actually a business strike.

Russ, NCNE

WWBillman

Thanks braddick,

I guess its not hard to tell I have never collected Proof or SMS coins.

By the way it is blast white with full luster and not a mark visible to the naked eye and I don't forsee letting it go for a long time.

Type collector.

Russ

Looking at his history and his other auctions, he's certainly no newb. He has some very nice stuff listed right now.

Russ, NCNE

TomB

Auction was pulled, that's good to see.

keithdagen

E-Mail from seller:

Well I have gotten a few emails on this questioning whether or not it
really
is a proof - I'm going to pull it off auction and send it to PCGS to
re-examine it??

Russ

Yep, I got a response from him also.

Russ, NCNE

braddick

I didn't. And, I think I was pretty nice about it.

Russ

<< <i>I was pretty nice about it. >>



Braddick,

That would explain it. I wasn't.

Russ, NCNE

WWBillman

I ran the cert #5612144 on the slab and PCGS does have that coin listed as PR68. Everyone was right it is a label error. Hopefully this guy will follow through and get it corrected.

Bcsican

I guess it goes to show WE KNOW OUR COINS.....

braddick

The Bigger Question:

What about the PCGS Finalizer? Isn't there someone who checks these coins once they're holdered and before they go out? I thought so, but I'm beginning to now doubt it.

keithdagen

What about the PCGS Finalizer? Isn't there someone who checks these coins once they're holdered and before they go out? I thought so, but I'm beginning to now doubt it.

You would think that a coin that would command that kind of price tag would get checked more than once out the door.

cosmicdebris

According to the PCGS Certification Database, certification number 05612144 is defined as the following:

COIN INFORMATION
Date, mintmark: 1964
Denomination: 50C
Variety: N/A
Grade: PR68

saynotoACG

Why doesn't PCGS remove the pop2 ms68? Obviously both are errors

keithdagen

PCGS can't remove the coins until they have the coins in hand or the inserts in hand.

Russ

Maybe I'm being paranoid, but going through this guy's other auctions, my spidey sense is going off. He has some VERY high end, VERY low pop coins up, and there is no indication in his history that he's dealt with this type of material before. He has material that I haven't even seen from R&I.

Russ, NCNE

Russ

Okay, I'm starting to think there's something going on here.

He listed this coin on 6/25 at $399.

He just listed the same coin today at $499.

As of right now, both auctions are running.

Russ, NCNE

braddick

Out of his dozens of auctions, all of them are Proof coins too other than the two SMS coins.

WWBillman

I have a strong feeling he was and is very aware it was a proof. He was just trying to slide it by and screw someone. He is now on my do not buy from list.
I highly doubt he will get the holded corrected.

wondercoin

"I highly doubt he will get the holded correcter."

Bill: I know PCGS has been in touch with the seller as well. I suspect this thing will get cleaned up, if PCGS does not "drop the ball". Wondercoin

dbldie55

From personal experience, PCGS will not try to get a proof coin in the correct holder. Not if it will cost them money. If they do it here, it breaks the trend they have had in the past.

keithdagen

I am highly disturbed by some of the things I have read on this thread. It seems like there is an overwhelming theme that people think that the seller is trying to intentionally screw someone with his auctions.

I have e-mailed the seller a couple of times (politely) and got responses to all of my e-mails. I genuinely believe that he doesn't know how to tell if the "MS-68" Kennedy is a MS or PR coin. If you are not familiar with the series, that's understandable to a degree. I have several high grade MS pieces, and many of them are prooflike, to the point that they could be mistaken for proof coins by an inexperienced person.

The fact that someone has assembled a lot of high grade material does not mean that they necessarily know what they have. The seller has been a long time buyer of coins based on his feedback. But the seller could just know to buy high grade coins and not know about the series themselves. How many collectors do you run into on a regular basis who purchase a coin based on what PCGS's label says rather than their own knowledge.

Russ

<< <i>But the seller could just know to buy high grade coins and not know about the series themselves. >>



Keith,

I think you're probably right and, regardless of my misgivings, I plan to take a shot at a couple of his coins depending on his response to the last eMail I sent him. Ah, the joys of risk.

The fact that he closed the second auction I linked above would indicate that he's most likely just mistake-prone and not crooked.

Russ, NCNE

WWBillman

Oh come on......

This guy has 87 auctions running right now and every one of them are modern proof coins. All he sells is Proof & SMS coins. Of the 87 auctions he is selling 18 proof Kennedy’s and 3 SMS Kennedy’s.

Then out of the blue he has 1 auction for a PCGS labeled MS68 Kennedy that has a light cameo and reflective fields. The coin is a Proof 68 coin in an error PCGS holder that calls it MS68.

This guy knows the difference between a Proof and Business strike coin.

Ok maybe if it was a SMS Kennedy that did not exhibit very many proof like qualities in a MS holder I might be able to believe he truly thought it was a MS coin. But to believe a Proof is a MS Kennedy?

If you want to trust this guy is just ignorant and made an honest mistake because he was nice to you go right ahead but don't bash me for not being that gullible and short sighted.

There is a small minute possible chance that he is truly that stupid.

Regardless, if it is stupidity or he is just out to screw someone he is not someone I want to buy coins from.

wondercoin

Bill: This is so obvoius that I would suspect PCGS would refuse to honor its buy-back policy based on a clear "mechanical error" exception. Hence, the coin will likely need to go "down cycle" (returned to everyone in line that may have sold it).

THIS IS THE VERY REASON I STRONGLY ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO RETURN MECHANICAL ERRORS TO PCGS IN THE FIRSTPLACE.

Also, with mechanical errors, I believe the back of PCGS' submission form makes it clear that liability passes to those who sold the coin, not to PCGS. Hence, if a collector receives a mechanical error and sells it for way more than it should sell for and then it sells 5 more times for "moon money", the "idiot" holding the "hot potato" at the end may decide to "go after" everyone in that chain of title. I believe it is PCGS' position that everyone might be responsible to that end user; everyone that is except for PCGS. This is just my interpretation of what PCGS disclaimed in its rules of submission Wondercoin.

keithdagen

If you look at his feedback, you'll see that 99% of the time, he is the buyer, not the seller. That means that these coins are probably from his personal collection.

And like I said, I have MS-68 and MS-69 pieces in my collection that have as much cameo as the scan indicates for that specific coin.

wondercoin

"And like I said, I have MS-68 and MS-69 pieces in my collection that have as much cameo as the scan indicates for that specific coin"

Keith: Do you have an MS Kennedy that looks like that? I didn't think so Wondercoin

Russ

<< <i>I have MS-68 and MS-69 pieces in my collection that have as much cameo as the scan indicates for that specific coin. >>



For 1964?

Russ, NCNE

keithdagen

Mitch,

Kennedy's no because they were clads instead of silvers, but both MS-69 Lincoln's have had enough of a cameo to have garnered a Prooflike designation.

braddick

Prooflike is a different animal than coins with contrast (CAM). My PCGS MS69 Memorial is prooflike too but no where near being confused for a proof.

WWBillman

I have a 1964D PCGS MS67 Kennedy. It is blast white with full mint luster and not a mark visible to the naked eye (looks perfect to me) but there is no way it could ever be mistaken as a proof. 1964 was a silver issue and only had MS and Proof strikes, you can definitely tell the difference between the two.

braddick

Bill, quit dangling that coin before my eyes! You know I want it! Stop!