Boy, this is turning into a depressing thread. Am I the only one who's still having fun with this hobby? While so many around here are hiding under their beds, I'm excited that Heritage's "Central States" auction is just two weeks away!!
@roadrunner said:
Know your dealer too. You may pay your installments on time....and then find out they no longer have the coin.....sold it for cash flow due to harsh times. No dealer is immune. And you as a customer have no access to their financial strength. In tough times like this, this is an important issue. I would think a lot of dealers will be forced to leave the market on this one.....and some of them will be those who were considered impervious to such things.
It would only be common sense to get any installment agreement in writing.
A failure to honor a written agreement would be something that could be settled in court.
@roadrunner said:
Know your dealer too. You may pay your installments on time....and then find out they no longer have the coin.....sold it for cash flow due to harsh times. No dealer is immune. And you as a customer have no access to their financial strength. In tough times like this, this is an important issue. I would think a lot of dealers will be forced to leave the market on this one.....and some of them will be those who were considered impervious to such things.
Very good advice .
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I purchased many of my Bust halves from Dick Osburn that would have been long gone on the 90 day payment plan a couple decades ago. Raising 3 kids I had to consider my budget for coins and this gave me a chance spreading purchases out.
@roadrunner said:
Know your dealer too. You may pay your installments on time....and then find out they no longer have the coin.....sold it for cash flow due to harsh times. No dealer is immune. And you as a customer have no access to their financial strength. In tough times like this, this is an important issue. I would think a lot of dealers will be forced to leave the market on this one.....and some of them will be those who were considered impervious to such things.
It would only be common sense to get any installment agreement in writing.
A failure to honor a written agreement would be something that could be settled in court.
Who needs the aggravation, particularly when a judgment in one's favor by no means guarantees you'll end up getting any lost money back?
@roadrunner said:
Know your dealer too. You may pay your installments on time....and then find out they no longer have the coin.....sold it for cash flow due to harsh times. No dealer is immune. And you as a customer have no access to their financial strength. In tough times like this, this is an important issue. I would think a lot of dealers will be forced to leave the market on this one.....and some of them will be those who were considered impervious to such things.
It would only be common sense to get any installment agreement in writing.
A failure to honor a written agreement would be something that could be settled in court.
@roadrunner said:
Know your dealer too. You may pay your installments on time....and then find out they no longer have the coin.....sold it for cash flow due to harsh times. No dealer is immune. And you as a customer have no access to their financial strength. In tough times like this, this is an important issue. I would think a lot of dealers will be forced to leave the market on this one.....and some of them will be those who were considered impervious to such things.
It would only be common sense to get any installment agreement in writing.
A failure to honor a written agreement would be something that could be settled in court.
Who needs the aggravation, particularly when a judgment in one's favor by no means guarantees you'll end up getting any lost money back?
This!
About 20 years ago, a local dealer went bankrupt. Family business that was 100 years old. Founding members of the ANA. Good as gold reputation. So good that a lot of dealers and customers fronted him money. They all got cents on the dollar after the bankruptcy proceedings.
@roadrunner said:
Know your dealer too. You may pay your installments on time....and then find out they no longer have the coin.....sold it for cash flow due to harsh times. No dealer is immune. And you as a customer have no access to their financial strength. In tough times like this, this is an important issue. I would think a lot of dealers will be forced to leave the market on this one.....and some of them will be those who were considered impervious to such things.
It would only be common sense to get any installment agreement in writing.
A failure to honor a written agreement would be something that could be settled in court.
And meaningless after a bankruptcy
If you are discouraging the use of a written agreement then I could not disagree with you more. You will be far better off with a written agreement if the other side breaches than just a handshake. Of course anyone can file bankruptcy but a written agreement may help with that too (i.e preference claim, etc)
All the negative stuff about how a court judgment won't always work is correct.
However, a written agreement speaks volumes to a tight community like coins.
When I was in biz, ONE failure to honor an agreement was all it took to ruin the teletype reputation.
@roadrunner said:
Know your dealer too. You may pay your installments on time....and then find out they no longer have the coin.....sold it for cash flow due to harsh times. No dealer is immune. And you as a customer have no access to their financial strength. In tough times like this, this is an important issue. I would think a lot of dealers will be forced to leave the market on this one.....and some of them will be those who were considered impervious to such things.
It would only be common sense to get any installment agreement in writing.
A failure to honor a written agreement would be something that could be settled in court.
And meaningless after a bankruptcy
If you are discouraging the use of a written agreement then I could not disagree with you more. You will be far better off with a written agreement if the other side breaches than just a handshake. Of course anyone can file bankruptcy but a written agreement may help with that too (i.e preference claim, etc)
I'm not discouraging a written agreement. I'm discouraging the whole endeavor with any dealer who isn't one of the top 10 firms in the country. See my story above.
@topstuf said:
All the negative stuff about how a court judgment won't always work is correct.
However, a written agreement speaks volumes to a tight community like coins.
When I was in biz, ONE failure to honor an agreement was all it took to ruin the teletype reputation.
When you declare bankruptcy, your reputation in the coin community won't be a big issue as you are no longer part of the coin community. [See my story above.] That dealer can't go near a local coin club without angry glares if not angry words. Hasn't really mattered. He's not in the biz anymore.
@roadrunner said:
Know your dealer too. You may pay your installments on time....and then find out they no longer have the coin.....sold it for cash flow due to harsh times. No dealer is immune. And you as a customer have no access to their financial strength. In tough times like this, this is an important issue. I would think a lot of dealers will be forced to leave the market on this one.....and some of them will be those who were considered impervious to such things.
Using an escrow agent for a larger purchase, whether coin or otherwise, is always something to consider--e.g., money is paid to the bonded escrow agent who holds the property, when payments and or other terms are complete, he then transfers title/the item to the purchaser. Adds 2 layers of protection to a transaction, the agent himself, and the bonding company (Insurance Company) that acts as a surety in the event the agent does not preform for any reason. Somewhat formal process, adds a bit of expense, but might be a good fit for certain transactions.
@topstuf said:
All the negative stuff about how a court judgment won't always work is correct.
However, a written agreement speaks volumes to a tight community like coins.
When I was in biz, ONE failure to honor an agreement was all it took to ruin the teletype reputation.
When you declare bankruptcy, your reputation in the coin community won't be a big issue as you are no longer part of the coin community. [See my story above.] That dealer can't go near a local coin club without angry glares if not angry words. Hasn't really mattered. He's not in the biz anymore.
Seems times have changed. In the 70's to 90's several dealers went bankrupt leaving folks with nothing yet many years later they came back with acceptance by most. I'm not posting names or their specialties (too much info) as some are dead. One well known dealer is still doing business in his field.
@topstuf said:
All the negative stuff about how a court judgment won't always work is correct.
However, a written agreement speaks volumes to a tight community like coins.
When I was in biz, ONE failure to honor an agreement was all it took to ruin the teletype reputation.
When you declare bankruptcy, your reputation in the coin community won't be a big issue as you are no longer part of the coin community. [See my story above.] That dealer can't go near a local coin club without angry glares if not angry words. Hasn't really mattered. He's not in the biz anymore.
Seems times have changed. In the 70's to 90's several dealers went bankrupt leaving folks with nothing yet many years later they came back with acceptance by most. I'm not posting names or their specialties (too much info) as some are dead. One well known dealer is still doing business in his field.
It's not impossible. But it is really difficult. It's a largely cash business. A lot of business gets done on memo. There are a lot of counterfeits. You really need to be trustworthy.
A lot of it depends on how it goes down, of course. I mean, someone who went bankrupt right now would probably be forgiven. But the bankruptcy I referred to above involved check kiting and had the dealer actually borrowing money THE DAY BEFORE the bankruptcy declaration.
Then post bankruptcy dispersal, some coins and paper money were being sold by the daughter of the dealer. This led to more legal filings by the original debtors who felt that the dealer had hidden assets of the firm before the bankruptcy.
"As of 4/5/2020 (with a spot basis of $1641.00) the sell price posted by Heritage for these (NGC graded) was as follows:
$20 Libs: $1,905
$20 Saints: $1,885
Assuming a hypothetical collector has a total of 15 of these (let’s say Saints), their wholesale value comes out to around $27,750 (figuring they can be sold at $1,850 each). Two months ago, you’d have been looking at around $24,375 for the same coins (figuring them at $1,625 each). You just made $3,375 and you didn’t even know it!
"I would be happy to trade my rare coins for you semi-numismatic or even bullion gold. And I’ll give you a full 100% of what I net for it (less postage) when I sell it for you in trade for coins from my inventory."
That's a real sucker deal. One reason I never came out well with dealers doing trades. The sharks are always smarter in their deals.
In this economy with staggering unemployment, with the vast majority of Americans not knowing what their futures are, rare coins are very low on the list of marketable items, like art and classic cars. Of course many would like such luxuries, but not in an economy when many are struggling just to pay their rent.
@logger7 said:
"As of 4/5/2020 (with a spot basis of $1641.00) the sell price posted by Heritage for these (NGC graded) was as follows:
$20 Libs: $1,905
$20 Saints: $1,885
Assuming a hypothetical collector has a total of 15 of these (let’s say Saints), their wholesale value comes out to around $27,750 (figuring they can be sold at $1,850 each). Two months ago, you’d have been looking at around $24,375 for the same coins (figuring them at $1,625 each). You just made $3,375 and you didn’t even know it!
"I would be happy to trade my rare coins for you semi-numismatic or even bullion gold. And I’ll give you a full 100% of what I net for it (less postage) when I sell it for you in trade for coins from my inventory."
That's a real sucker deal. One reason I never came out well with dealers doing trades. The sharks are always smarter in their deals.
In this economy with staggering unemployment, with the vast majority of Americans not knowing what their futures are, rare coins are very low on the list of marketable items, like art and classic cars. Of course many would like such luxuries, but not in an economy when many are struggling just to pay their rent.
It doesn’t matter what anyone other than a potential buyer thinks. If he or she wants to acquire a numismatic coin and can trade bullion gold coins (which are currently at significantly higher premiums) for it, he/she might be happy to do so.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@blitzdude said:
Trading in bullion for numis in this environment would be extremely foolish in my opinion but then again what do I know?
@MFeld said:
It doesn’t matter what anyone other than a potential buyer thinks. If he or she wants to acquire a numismatic coin and can >trade bullion gold coins (which are currently at significantly higher premiums) for it, he/she might be happy to do so.
Top pops & maybe the next 1 or 2 row numismatic saints are not going up at all.
Bullion is going up fast but if something beautiful pops up that fills a hole at the right price....
@logger7 said:
"As of 4/5/2020 (with a spot basis of $1641.00) the sell price posted by Heritage for these (NGC graded) was as follows:
$20 Libs: $1,905
$20 Saints: $1,885
Assuming a hypothetical collector has a total of 15 of these (let’s say Saints), their wholesale value comes out to around $27,750 (figuring they can be sold at $1,850 each). Two months ago, you’d have been looking at around $24,375 for the same coins (figuring them at $1,625 each). You just made $3,375 and you didn’t even know it!
"I would be happy to trade my rare coins for you semi-numismatic or even bullion gold. And I’ll give you a full 100% of what I net for it (less postage) when I sell it for you in trade for coins from my inventory."
That's a real sucker deal. One reason I never came out well with dealers doing trades. The sharks are always smarter in their deals.
In this economy with staggering unemployment, with the vast majority of Americans not knowing what their futures are, rare coins are very low on the list of marketable items, like art and classic cars. Of course many would like such luxuries, but not in an economy when many are struggling just to pay their rent.
It doesn’t matter what anyone other than a potential buyer thinks. If he or she wants to acquire a numismatic coin and can trade bullion gold coins (which are currently at significantly higher premiums) for it, he/she might be happy to do so.
I could see liquidating at significant premiums, but also remember when gold broke $1200 a number of years ago and MS62 Saints were selling around $1800, so these premiums while recent are not historically high. And on the few offers I got from DW, I got much higher offers from other dealers, so would not even contact him for an offer at this point. I found his buy/sell spreads much higher than others like HA that I dealt with with satisfaction.
Using an escrow agent for a larger purchase, whether coin or otherwise, is always something to consider--e.g., money is paid to the bonded escrow agent who holds the property, when payments and or other terms are complete, he then transfers title/the item to the purchaser. Adds 2 layers of protection to a transaction, the agent himself, and the bonding company (Insurance Company) that acts as a surety in the event the agent does not preform for any reason. Somewhat formal process, adds a bit of expense, but might be a good fit for certain transactions.
Like PAYPAL
I could see liquidating at significant premiums, but also remember when gold broke $1200 a number of years ago and MS62 Saints were selling around $1800, so these premiums while recent are not historically high. And on the few offers I got from DW, I got much higher offers from other dealers, so would not even contact him for an offer at this point. I found his buy/sell spreads much higher than others like HA that I dealt with with satisfaction.
I think you meant wider spreads....
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
??? - Heritage, StacksBowers, Legend, Great Collections, etc. are still up and running.
Yes, and as usual, as soon as I bid on something, the bids go nuts, even though I am now on the dark side.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I bought a couple coins on installments when I was a very young collector. It worked out well, but that was almost 50 years ago ...
I am much older than I ever intended to be.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@2ndCharter said:
Boy, this is turning into a depressing thread. Am I the only one who's still having fun with this hobby? While so many around here are hiding under their beds, I'm excited that Heritage's "Central States" auction is just two weeks away!!
So YOU are the one who is running me up.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@roadrunner said:
Know your dealer too. You may pay your installments on time....and then find out they no longer have the coin.....sold it for cash flow due to harsh times. No dealer is immune. And you as a customer have no access to their financial strength. In tough times like this, this is an important issue. I would think a lot of dealers will be forced to leave the market on this one.....and some of them will be those who were considered impervious to such things.
It would only be common sense to get any installment agreement in writing.
A failure to honor a written agreement would be something that could be settled in court.
Yeah, once they declare bankruptcy, and all the large coin dealers get paid first, good luck being a collector on the end of that daisy chain. It was settled in court. Bankruptcy court. I got nothing with the coins I had on consignment (to sell) with that dealer. Ultimately, possession is the best "law."
Comments
Boy, this is turning into a depressing thread. Am I the only one who's still having fun with this hobby? While so many around here are hiding under their beds, I'm excited that Heritage's "Central States" auction is just two weeks away!!
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
Again, most dealers will do whatever it takes. Taking bullion in payment should be a no-brainer.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It would only be common sense to get any installment agreement in writing.
A failure to honor a written agreement would be something that could be settled in court.
Very good advice .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I purchased many of my Bust halves from Dick Osburn that would have been long gone on the 90 day payment plan a couple decades ago. Raising 3 kids I had to consider my budget for coins and this gave me a chance spreading purchases out.
Who needs the aggravation, particularly when a judgment in one's favor by no means guarantees you'll end up getting any lost money back?
And meaningless after a bankruptcy
This!
About 20 years ago, a local dealer went bankrupt. Family business that was 100 years old. Founding members of the ANA. Good as gold reputation. So good that a lot of dealers and customers fronted him money. They all got cents on the dollar after the bankruptcy proceedings.
If you are discouraging the use of a written agreement then I could not disagree with you more. You will be far better off with a written agreement if the other side breaches than just a handshake. Of course anyone can file bankruptcy but a written agreement may help with that too (i.e preference claim, etc)
All the negative stuff about how a court judgment won't always work is correct.
However, a written agreement speaks volumes to a tight community like coins.
When I was in biz, ONE failure to honor an agreement was all it took to ruin the teletype reputation.
I'm not discouraging a written agreement. I'm discouraging the whole endeavor with any dealer who isn't one of the top 10 firms in the country. See my story above.
When you declare bankruptcy, your reputation in the coin community won't be a big issue as you are no longer part of the coin community. [See my story above.] That dealer can't go near a local coin club without angry glares if not angry words. Hasn't really mattered. He's not in the biz anymore.
Using an escrow agent for a larger purchase, whether coin or otherwise, is always something to consider--e.g., money is paid to the bonded escrow agent who holds the property, when payments and or other terms are complete, he then transfers title/the item to the purchaser. Adds 2 layers of protection to a transaction, the agent himself, and the bonding company (Insurance Company) that acts as a surety in the event the agent does not preform for any reason. Somewhat formal process, adds a bit of expense, but might be a good fit for certain transactions.
Seems times have changed. In the 70's to 90's several dealers went bankrupt leaving folks with nothing yet many years later they came back with acceptance by most. I'm not posting names or their specialties (too much info) as some are dead. One well known dealer is still doing business in his field.
It's not impossible. But it is really difficult. It's a largely cash business. A lot of business gets done on memo. There are a lot of counterfeits. You really need to be trustworthy.
A lot of it depends on how it goes down, of course. I mean, someone who went bankrupt right now would probably be forgiven. But the bankruptcy I referred to above involved check kiting and had the dealer actually borrowing money THE DAY BEFORE the bankruptcy declaration.
Then post bankruptcy dispersal, some coins and paper money were being sold by the daughter of the dealer. This led to more legal filings by the original debtors who felt that the dealer had hidden assets of the firm before the bankruptcy.
"As of 4/5/2020 (with a spot basis of $1641.00) the sell price posted by Heritage for these (NGC graded) was as follows:
$20 Libs: $1,905
$20 Saints: $1,885
Assuming a hypothetical collector has a total of 15 of these (let’s say Saints), their wholesale value comes out to around $27,750 (figuring they can be sold at $1,850 each). Two months ago, you’d have been looking at around $24,375 for the same coins (figuring them at $1,625 each). You just made $3,375 and you didn’t even know it!
"I would be happy to trade my rare coins for you semi-numismatic or even bullion gold. And I’ll give you a full 100% of what I net for it (less postage) when I sell it for you in trade for coins from my inventory."
That's a real sucker deal. One reason I never came out well with dealers doing trades. The sharks are always smarter in their deals.
In this economy with staggering unemployment, with the vast majority of Americans not knowing what their futures are, rare coins are very low on the list of marketable items, like art and classic cars. Of course many would like such luxuries, but not in an economy when many are struggling just to pay their rent.
Trading in bullion for numis in this environment would be extremely foolish in my opinion but then again what do I know?
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
It doesn’t matter what anyone other than a potential buyer thinks. If he or she wants to acquire a numismatic coin and can trade bullion gold coins (which are currently at significantly higher premiums) for it, he/she might be happy to do so.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Top pops & maybe the next 1 or 2 row numismatic saints are not going up at all.
Bullion is going up fast but if something beautiful pops up that fills a hole at the right price....
My Saint Set
I could see liquidating at significant premiums, but also remember when gold broke $1200 a number of years ago and MS62 Saints were selling around $1800, so these premiums while recent are not historically high. And on the few offers I got from DW, I got much higher offers from other dealers, so would not even contact him for an offer at this point. I found his buy/sell spreads much higher than others like HA that I dealt with with satisfaction.
Like PAYPAL
I could see liquidating at significant premiums, but also remember when gold broke $1200 a number of years ago and MS62 Saints were selling around $1800, so these premiums while recent are not historically high. And on the few offers I got from DW, I got much higher offers from other dealers, so would not even contact him for an offer at this point. I found his buy/sell spreads much higher than others like HA that I dealt with with satisfaction.
I think you meant wider spreads....
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Yes, and as usual, as soon as I bid on something, the bids go nuts, even though I am now on the dark side.
I bought a couple coins on installments when I was a very young collector. It worked out well, but that was almost 50 years ago ...
I am much older than I ever intended to be.
So YOU are the one who is running me up.
So YOU are the one who is running me up.
Guilty as charged!
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
Yeah, once they declare bankruptcy, and all the large coin dealers get paid first, good luck being a collector on the end of that daisy chain. It was settled in court. Bankruptcy court. I got nothing with the coins I had on consignment (to sell) with that dealer. Ultimately, possession is the best "law."
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/11/us/doubletree-cookie-recipe-trnd/index.html