I treat consignments like unprotected one night stands. I am not saying never but you’re going to want to be careful. Once burned complaining to the to other side rarely helps
@PerryHall said:
This dealer sounds like he's having serious financial problems and may be on the verge of bankruptcy or skipping town. The longer you wait, the less likely you will get your money or any money.
Hello all. Have been an regular reader of the forums for almost the past year. Former long ago collector, and retired legal person, with a renewed interest in numismatics . Silent to date as I have been in learner mode (the breath of knowledge and general level of discourse here is impressive--Bongo in particular left me dumbstruck by his singular eloquence). Breaking my silence/ de-cloaking as I might actually have something of substance to contribute.
Where consignments valued in excess of $1000 are involved, consideration should be given to filing a Uniform Commercial Code ("UCC") Financing Statement to perfect a secured interest under UCC § 9-103(d). PURCHASE-MONEY SECURITY INTEREST (for consignors), By filing the financing statement (often times an online form with the state agency that oversees corporations) a consignor may receive a security interest in a consignee's inventory. That certainly is not complete protection, there are many nuances, but it may provide at least some preference to unsecured creditors if assets need to be liquidated/disbursed in bankruptcy.
Above is Just a very general FYI and should not be relied upon as specific legal advice. Know much is done by handshake. But if you consign regularly, or have a significant lot, always best to seek legal advice beforehand to try to avoid that old closing the barn door after the horse bolted truism......
I can't add much to the suggestion list, but I do agree with what's been said that this dealer shouldn't be given extra time. Demand payment now and pursue it--if you're not the only one owed funds, and funds have been squandered, get your money before there's none left. This is a situation where someone will likely lose, so don't make it you by being nice.
For what it's worth (and I realize my situation isn't completely normal in that my business is entirely consignments, not a mix of my own sales and consignments) I keep everything I owe out in its own bank account until I pay my consignors. The funds never mix with any funds that could be used for anything personal. It's a good way from even accidentally spending money that isn't mine.
I guess plan b could be to accept coins from his inventory as partial payment or used a collateral until resolved.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman said:
I guess plan b could be to accept coins from his inventory as partial payment or used a collateral until resolved.
m
Under the circumstances, I wouldn’t be confident that the dealer even has clear title to coins in his inventory.
Impossible to say. We only have very limited information to work off of. We can only hypothesize. We don’t know if this the beginning of this dealers troubles ( momentary hiccup) or the end of the line. Just thinking out loud on how I might handle
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
If what transpired is a manifestation of a deeper problem involving many others, seems like a bankruptcy filing could be on the horizon. There is a potential for clawback of any monies paid to unsecured creditors within 90 days of a bankruptcy filing. Highly recommend OP seek the advice of an attorney. A twin strategy of obtaining the monies, as well as protection from the potential for clawback seems to be called for. Receiving monies from the consignee only to have to potentially return them to a bankruptcy court later would be doubly unpleasant.
@evergreen said:
If what transpired is a manifestation of a deeper problem involving many others, seems like a bankruptcy filing could be on the horizon. There is a potential for clawback of any monies paid to unsecured creditors within 90 days of a bankruptcy filing. Highly recommend OP seek the advice of an attorney. A twin strategy of obtaining the monies, as well as protection from the potential for clawback seems to be called for. Receiving monies from the consignee only to have to potentially return them to a bankruptcy court later would be doubly unpleasant.
Well stated
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Thanks for commenting. What does the strategy to protect against a clawback look like?
Key is to be a secured, rather than an unsecured, creditor. One way to do that may be to file a UCC Financing Statement before a bankruptcy is filed. That protection is limited for consignments ( gives you security in inventory), but it is something.
Understand the need for forum discretion, not outing names. One unintended consequence of silence though is that others may not know to secure their claims before things go completely sideways and it is too late to perfect his/her status as a secured creditor.
Please understand all the above is a very general statement. Are other prophylactic ways to protect yourself with a security interest if larger consignments might be contemplated. Those situations are fact specific and best addressed in advance of a consignment with an attorney in your state of residence
I agree with @MFeld and @evergreen and forget the property lien (I was in error and thinking of a mechanics lien). Get going now and don't wait. You don't even know how many others are in the same boat...you want to get to the head of the line.
bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
I appreciate the input from all. The dealer has either stopped reading my texts or changed settings so that the read receipt no longer shows. I do suspect financial woes are at play. Doesn't excuse but may explain. I hope he is reading this because I am a reasonable person but have no qualms about seeking criminal and civil recourse if he thinks ghosting me will garner him a reprieve. I also won't out him but welcome his setting the record straight if he thinks I've misrepresented anything.
The thing is, he's made some boneheaded mistakes (selling consigned coins for well below market and well below my minimums) but he made good on those. I initially made consignments to the fellow (now mostly retired) he acquired the business from and he was beyond top shelf. Incredibly pro-active and knowledgeable, he also came highly recommended by this board. Even the young buck has received praise on these boards aside from a whiff of concern that he doesn't respond promptly to emails on his website.
You should file a police report either with your DA or AG office. Do not agree to any partial payment or delay in fullfillment of debt as that could be considered a civil structured payment plan which means you'll get screwed when he fails at that. Yeah, get your lawyer but a personal attorney cannot prosecute anyone. Your lawyer is the District Attorney and Attorney General. Peace Roy
He can block you if you are texting him and he won’t get any messages from you, but if you call him and leave a message on his cell number he will get all of your messages.
It really smells of conversion. The proceeds from the sale, less agreed upon consignment fees are your property. He stole your property when he misappropriated it for his own purposes. It certainly subjects him to civil liability, potentially including exemplary damages and may also constitute criminal conduct. Seriously, your best bet is to seek the advice of legal counsel if he hasn’t given you a firm date for repayment (and that date needs to be very very soon). A demand letter from an attorney could be enough to get it resolved. Nobody wants to be sued.
@evergreen said:
If what transpired is a manifestation of a deeper problem involving many others, seems like a bankruptcy filing could be on the horizon. There is a potential for clawback of any monies paid to unsecured creditors within 90 days of a bankruptcy filing. Highly recommend OP seek the advice of an attorney. A twin strategy of obtaining the monies, as well as protection from the potential for clawback seems to be called for. Receiving monies from the consignee only to have to potentially return them to a bankruptcy court later would be doubly unpleasant.
Thanks for commenting. What does the strategy to protect against a clawback look like?
One strategy is to be the first to take aggressive action and get your money early and cross your fingers that the preference period expires before bankruptcy is filed (if that’s the direction this is going).
I appreciate the input from all. The dealer has either stopped reading my texts or changed settings so that the read receipt no longer shows. I do suspect financial woes are at play. Doesn't excuse but may explain. I hope he is reading this because I am a reasonable person but have no qualms about seeking criminal and civil recourse if he thinks ghosting me will garner him a reprieve. I also won't out him but welcome his setting the record straight if he thinks I've misrepresented anything.
My experience is that delays and excuses followed by sudden silence rarely means a "debtor" is busy at work trying to put a wrong situation right. Nor do delays generally work in favor of a creditor. A debtor using that MO often is later found to have been trying to rob Peter to pay Paul (as mentioned by another poster), or to be hiding/transferring assets in the interim. Of course it is always possible he could be attempting to refinance his newly remodeled house or doing other things, but silence sure is not an indicator that he is actually taking any substantive steps to rectify the situation. It very much says the opposite.
Criminal complaint could provide a moral, non financial remedy of sorts. You would need to be lucky enough to have a local state attorney who has any interest in pursuing a property crime, in the middle of a pandemic. That would most likely happen only if there is a great number of victims. A one off complaint would likely receive a response that "it is civil in nature." Your chances of receiving any restitution by way of a criminal complaint, especially if there are a number of other victims, would likely be much lesser than taking an active civil approach to the situation you now unfortunately find yourself in.
Silence seems to say to me that situation has crossed the line where informal resolution will have an effect, and is a signal that active steps need to be taken, and rather immediately. Inaction now may later find you empty handed at the end of a who knows how long line of creditors, coin related and otherwise (would be no surprise if other financial stressors are a driving factor behind his conduct and there might be all sorts of other creditors).
You know this, but if he’s changing stories then he’s spinning tales to buy time and/or to partially mollify you. Don’t let him.
At minimum you need to send a certified letter that documents the fact pattern to date so that when litigation ensues, you’ve got something (along with emails) to prove what has occurred and to document his silence. You should at least do this in the event you want to delay engaging counsel.
@jdillane said:
I appreciate the input from all. The dealer has either stopped reading my texts or changed settings so that the read receipt no longer shows. I do suspect financial woes are at play. Doesn't excuse but may explain. I hope he is reading this because I am a reasonable person but have no qualms about seeking criminal and civil recourse if he thinks ghosting me will garner him a reprieve. I also won't out him but welcome his setting the record straight if he thinks I've misrepresented anything.
The thing is, he's made some boneheaded mistakes (selling consigned coins for well below market and well below my minimums) but he made good on those. I initially made consignments to the fellow (now mostly retired) he acquired the business from and he was beyond top shelf. Incredibly pro-active and knowledgeable, he also came highly recommended by this board. Even the young buck has received praise on these boards aside from a whiff of concern that he doesn't respond promptly to emails on his website.
He has responded. I’d rather not offend guidelines so will refrain from posting further on this while pending. I hope that I’ll be able to eventually post a good outcome update.
@jdillane said:
He has responded. I’d rather not offend guidelines so will refrain from posting further on this while pending. I hope that I’ll be able to eventually post a good outcome update.
Best of luck to you. You’ve been a true gentleman under what are, no doubt, very trying circumstances.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Comments
I treat consignments like unprotected one night stands. I am not saying never but you’re going to want to be careful. Once burned complaining to the to other side rarely helps
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Robbing Peter to pay Paul is seemingly ill repute , not solid , in my book. Whoever...whatever.
I believe you're gracious. I'm harsh.
Hello all. Have been an regular reader of the forums for almost the past year. Former long ago collector, and retired legal person, with a renewed interest in numismatics . Silent to date as I have been in learner mode (the breath of knowledge and general level of discourse here is impressive--Bongo in particular left me dumbstruck by his singular eloquence). Breaking my silence/ de-cloaking as I might actually have something of substance to contribute.
Where consignments valued in excess of $1000 are involved, consideration should be given to filing a Uniform Commercial Code ("UCC") Financing Statement to perfect a secured interest under UCC § 9-103(d). PURCHASE-MONEY SECURITY INTEREST (for consignors), By filing the financing statement (often times an online form with the state agency that oversees corporations) a consignor may receive a security interest in a consignee's inventory. That certainly is not complete protection, there are many nuances, but it may provide at least some preference to unsecured creditors if assets need to be liquidated/disbursed in bankruptcy.
Filing requirements/fees for California, chosen as a random example, can be found at https://www.sos.ca.gov/business-programs/ucc/financing-statement/
Above is Just a very general FYI and should not be relied upon as specific legal advice. Know much is done by handshake. But if you consign regularly, or have a significant lot, always best to seek legal advice beforehand to try to avoid that old closing the barn door after the horse bolted truism......
I can't add much to the suggestion list, but I do agree with what's been said that this dealer shouldn't be given extra time. Demand payment now and pursue it--if you're not the only one owed funds, and funds have been squandered, get your money before there's none left. This is a situation where someone will likely lose, so don't make it you by being nice.
For what it's worth (and I realize my situation isn't completely normal in that my business is entirely consignments, not a mix of my own sales and consignments) I keep everything I owe out in its own bank account until I pay my consignors. The funds never mix with any funds that could be used for anything personal. It's a good way from even accidentally spending money that isn't mine.
"Demand payment now and pursue it--if you're not the only one owed funds, and funds have been squandered, get your money before there's none left."
THIS
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Red flags all over the place, particularly since he's changing his story/lying about his circumstances.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
I guess plan b could be to accept coins from his inventory as partial payment or used a collateral until resolved.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Under the circumstances, I wouldn’t be confident that the dealer even has clear title to coins in his inventory.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Impossible to say. We only have very limited information to work off of. We can only hypothesize. We don’t know if this the beginning of this dealers troubles ( momentary hiccup) or the end of the line. Just thinking out loud on how I might handle
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
If what transpired is a manifestation of a deeper problem involving many others, seems like a bankruptcy filing could be on the horizon. There is a potential for clawback of any monies paid to unsecured creditors within 90 days of a bankruptcy filing. Highly recommend OP seek the advice of an attorney. A twin strategy of obtaining the monies, as well as protection from the potential for clawback seems to be called for. Receiving monies from the consignee only to have to potentially return them to a bankruptcy court later would be doubly unpleasant.
Well stated
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Key is to be a secured, rather than an unsecured, creditor. One way to do that may be to file a UCC Financing Statement before a bankruptcy is filed. That protection is limited for consignments ( gives you security in inventory), but it is something.
Understand the need for forum discretion, not outing names. One unintended consequence of silence though is that others may not know to secure their claims before things go completely sideways and it is too late to perfect his/her status as a secured creditor.
Please understand all the above is a very general statement. Are other prophylactic ways to protect yourself with a security interest if larger consignments might be contemplated. Those situations are fact specific and best addressed in advance of a consignment with an attorney in your state of residence
I agree with @MFeld and @evergreen and forget the property lien (I was in error and thinking of a mechanics lien). Get going now and don't wait. You don't even know how many others are in the same boat...you want to get to the head of the line.
bob
As a dealer, I do not take consignments.
I will offer to buy the coin(s) outright if fits my inventory and is priced right.
If it were me I'd have started looking into prosecution for fraud as soon as his story changed.
OK, we can check @ErrorsOnCoins off the suspect list...
Not so fast, there. He said he DOESN’T take them, not that he DIDN’T take them.😄
Just kidding, of course.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I appreciate the input from all. The dealer has either stopped reading my texts or changed settings so that the read receipt no longer shows. I do suspect financial woes are at play. Doesn't excuse but may explain. I hope he is reading this because I am a reasonable person but have no qualms about seeking criminal and civil recourse if he thinks ghosting me will garner him a reprieve. I also won't out him but welcome his setting the record straight if he thinks I've misrepresented anything.
The thing is, he's made some boneheaded mistakes (selling consigned coins for well below market and well below my minimums) but he made good on those. I initially made consignments to the fellow (now mostly retired) he acquired the business from and he was beyond top shelf. Incredibly pro-active and knowledgeable, he also came highly recommended by this board. Even the young buck has received praise on these boards aside from a whiff of concern that he doesn't respond promptly to emails on his website.
Fingers crossed.
Uncross your fingers stat, and get to a lawyer yesterday.
Not your family lawyer either that does it all.
A UCC specialist. Usually found in larger firms. Check Martindale Hubbell.
Wowsers...I would be really ticked off!
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
You should file a police report either with your DA or AG office. Do not agree to any partial payment or delay in fullfillment of debt as that could be considered a civil structured payment plan which means you'll get screwed when he fails at that. Yeah, get your lawyer but a personal attorney cannot prosecute anyone. Your lawyer is the District Attorney and Attorney General. Peace Roy
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@jdillane :
Curious - is the website of this dealer still up and having inventory for sale?
Best, SH
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
He can block you if you are texting him and he won’t get any messages from you, but if you call him and leave a message on his cell number he will get all of your messages.
You might want to send him a certified letter, or have an attorney do so.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Do you know where he lives? If so, you may want to pay him a visit to discuss your concerns.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
It really smells of conversion. The proceeds from the sale, less agreed upon consignment fees are your property. He stole your property when he misappropriated it for his own purposes. It certainly subjects him to civil liability, potentially including exemplary damages and may also constitute criminal conduct. Seriously, your best bet is to seek the advice of legal counsel if he hasn’t given you a firm date for repayment (and that date needs to be very very soon). A demand letter from an attorney could be enough to get it resolved. Nobody wants to be sued.
One strategy is to be the first to take aggressive action and get your money early and cross your fingers that the preference period expires before bankruptcy is filed (if that’s the direction this is going).
My experience is that delays and excuses followed by sudden silence rarely means a "debtor" is busy at work trying to put a wrong situation right. Nor do delays generally work in favor of a creditor. A debtor using that MO often is later found to have been trying to rob Peter to pay Paul (as mentioned by another poster), or to be hiding/transferring assets in the interim. Of course it is always possible he could be attempting to refinance his newly remodeled house or doing other things, but silence sure is not an indicator that he is actually taking any substantive steps to rectify the situation. It very much says the opposite.
Criminal complaint could provide a moral, non financial remedy of sorts. You would need to be lucky enough to have a local state attorney who has any interest in pursuing a property crime, in the middle of a pandemic. That would most likely happen only if there is a great number of victims. A one off complaint would likely receive a response that "it is civil in nature." Your chances of receiving any restitution by way of a criminal complaint, especially if there are a number of other victims, would likely be much lesser than taking an active civil approach to the situation you now unfortunately find yourself in.
Silence seems to say to me that situation has crossed the line where informal resolution will have an effect, and is a signal that active steps need to be taken, and rather immediately. Inaction now may later find you empty handed at the end of a who knows how long line of creditors, coin related and otherwise (would be no surprise if other financial stressors are a driving factor behind his conduct and there might be all sorts of other creditors).
You know this, but if he’s changing stories then he’s spinning tales to buy time and/or to partially mollify you. Don’t let him.
At minimum you need to send a certified letter that documents the fact pattern to date so that when litigation ensues, you’ve got something (along with emails) to prove what has occurred and to document his silence. You should at least do this in the event you want to delay engaging counsel.
We need more hints.
He has responded. I’d rather not offend guidelines so will refrain from posting further on this while pending. I hope that I’ll be able to eventually post a good outcome update.
Best of luck to you. You’ve been a true gentleman under what are, no doubt, very trying circumstances.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.