State of counterfeits - Have we jumped the shark?
Zoins
Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
At some point will there be so many counterfeits that can't be identified that we should just assume they are out there? Are we there yet, at least for low grade, early American coins?
Some of the counterfeits that have been published seem to have diagnostics that are easy to rectify so I'm wondering if they are already out there.
How is this handled with ancients which have been counterfeited for much longer?
Tagged:
1
Comments
I do all three (and this has not kept me from being burned by artificial red colorants added to coppers or some markets tanking and not coming back, or well-known dealers burning me). If I weren't an addict, I would have walked away for good decades ago.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Someone said that in the history of coins the 2nd one minted was probably counterfeit…
I assume there are a number of counterfeit ancients but I don’t play in that area of Numismatics. I do have a number of dealer friends that specialize in that field and they occasionally show me counterfeits that they come across, some listed on the “Bay”.
I actually have a TPG certed one at home a friend sent me as a counterfeit but I haven’t actually researched it to date.
For early copper the latest deceptive struck fakes are obviously good enough to get by some TPGs and experts alike.
The “marks” we find that help to identify common examples can be removed or covered up which the counterfeiters have been doing- my research on the counterfeit 1806 “C-1” struck half cent counterfeits shows 2 different “die states” in an attempt to repair one of the main attribution marks of these, but the others are there and the “improvement” obvious. In EAC we have the advantage of documenting so many examples by variety in the Condition Census data that an “improved” example, one with no notable circulation marks would also stick out and be the subject of scrutiny, where in hand inspection should reveal other “tells” that the coin is not genuine.
Unfortunately, in silver coins especially say Morgan Dollars the improved counterfeits may be harder to distinguish…
Years ago, John Kraljevich told me that Thomas Jefferson was a coin collector, and that many of his ancient coins turned out to be counterfeit.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I stay away from venues such as ebay....way too many counterfeits there...If I am considering a significant purchase (and most of mine are significant), I am very cautious, consulting books, experts here and some of my knowledgeable friends from my years out west. This has worked so far. I am concerned about the counterfeiting 'state of the art' advancing....they are getting better. Be careful out there....Cheers, RickO
The counterfeiters are getting better! You really have to watch and then if you buy from a TPG, you have to watch about not paying to much. (which I have!)
I don't know that I would use the phrase 'jump the shark' to describe the situation with respect to modern counterfeits (especially die-struck ones).
Perhaps it is time to ban the import of raw pre-WWII U. S. coins from abroad. And squeeze ebay et al., to incentivize them to block foreign sellers who advertise raw, classic U. S. coins. Make importers get U. S. coins certified before they are allowed in--this wouldn't totally stop the problem, but it would help.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
This is a major concern of mine. I see the technology we use in dentistry and think this could easily be used to made dies etc. Can add die cracks, everything. And this is fairly cheap equipment, I am sure there is much better stuff out there.
I have been in the market for a 1796 or 7 half dollar for the past year. I have looked at every one available and some of them are too far gone, damaged or corroded for anyone to honestly be sure they are not counterfeit in my opinion. It has made me really rethink collecting, as has this virus shutdown. There are lots of ways to spend my money, perhaps its time to spend more money on fishing.
2 things
1) At this moment, the counterfeiters have stopped making coins, and are making faux Charmin and N(ot)95 masks,
2) It is not just coins, but everywhere. Bolts, simple bolts, are counterfeited. The problem is material and hardness. Take a 4 cent bolt and pass it off as a $5 bolt, and $$ flow in. I used to work on Military products, and fake hardware was everywhere. I am trying to find the picture of a Southwest Airlines B737 coming into land with 1 of the engines hanging off the plane. IIRC, there are 3 massive bolts to secure the engine, and 1 of them sheared, and it was a fake bolt.
I deal in classic Mustangs. There are a lot of reproductions (no problem), some poor quality (a problem but not counterfeit) and then counterfeit parts: Claiming to be New Old Stock (NOS), but recent mostly Chinese fakes in either original Ford boxes or faked boxes. A set of NOS battery caps, those little plastic caps on top of old batteries, for a 1969 Boss 429 can run $2000 + for a set of 6.
Then the cars themselves, there are problems with VINs being faked or the entire car. A common saying is there are more 1960's Shelbys now than when they left the factory. Some states do not require titles on cars over 25 or 30 years old, so it can be the Wild West.
With records being computerized at the national level, many cars have shown up being registered in different states, but with the same VIN. Replacement titles issued on paper 40 years ago, stolen cars washed in another state, etc. so now you have a clash over who's car is "real" versus the counterfeit. Toss in car that have been exported and later reimported, due to changing tastes and economics, it gets worse.
The wildest example I know of is a Ferrari that exists in 3 difference countries. It was wrecked and totaled, and parted out. The engine, the transmission, and frame were all serialized, and went to different countries. Either a stolen car, or just a pile of parts, were built around each of those items, and then titled in each of the 3 countries. So now, a single Ferrari has become 3 separate legal cars in the world, but the owners have been "warned" to never let 2 of the cars wind up in the same country, because probably they both will be seized, and possibly crushed.
So Bob, which Ferrari is "real"...the one with engine or the one with the frame? Lol.
I only fear 2 things in life ... the first being God all mighty, the second being adept counterfeiters.
Of the several struck counterfeits I am involved with, many in top TPG holders I use this example to motivate me to keep looking for more...
I sold a Nikon Stereo Zoom scope to a major TPGS finalizer over a decade ago and I have told him on at least three occasions since that they better have one person start examining as many coins a day that come in to learn what the surface of a genuine coin looks like at 20X-40X. Unfortunately, It was about 25 years too late and AFAIK it has still not been done.
IMO, the best deterrent to C/F's the TPGS's have at this time (besides the experience of their best authenticators) is their imaging records.
PS IMO, "Jump the Shark" does not apply to this discussion. I've only seen it used when something is obviously "make believe fiction, very foolish, or impossible.
I don't really worry about modern fakes, since I won't buy any coppers anymore, unless I can track them from collector to collector, back to the 1950's or earlier. But faux Charmin? That is too close for comfort.
Perhaps we need to tell newbies something along the lines of 'abandon all hope, ye who enter here'?
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Wow. Looks like identifying counterfeits can be a full time study!
I've seen you post a lot of great information on counterfeits here. Are you also a big collector of these series?
@burfle is too modest to toot his own horn. He and his "posse" have become one of our best defenses against counterfeiters. They are helping the major TPGS's too! From what I've seen he has a good collection of dangerous C/F's and continues to share info with all of us through his published articles. The articles he publishes are the very dangerous fakes and not the across-the-room "granular junk" that would not fool my blind grandmother found in many other articles.
That 1872-S half looks amazingly/frighteningly nice!
What does it mean to jump a shark? That's a coin term I am unfamiliar with.
When Fonzie jumped the shark in Happy Days it was the beginning of the end for the series...