Take EXTREME care with bullion orders

topstuf · March 24, 2020 9:34AM

This is a market that will bankrupt a lot of metal dealers.
Some sell cheaper hoping to cover and can't.
Then they offer even larger quantities to make their getaway.

I came within 7 minutes of taking a 20k hit back in 1980.
Fortunately, I was one who CALLED THEIR BANK and got funds LOCKED.
In fact, while on the phone they told me MY funds were being wired but the account was now closed!

Be REAL careful. This is perfect scam weather.

derryb · March 24, 2020 9:54AM

a dealer who shows "out of stock" on some items is likely only selling what he actually has on hand. Might be a good green flag.

topstuf · March 24, 2020 12:06PM

@derryb said:
a dealer who shows "out of stock" on some items is likely only selling what he actually has on hand. Might be a good green flag.

No. A dealer who is offering to buy OR sell in a market that has gone crazy.
They sell on the wholesale teletype, deposit the money and don't ship.
Conversely, they are BUYING ...high
and stuff is flooding into them but they are selling or refining it to their own sources and KEEPING the money.

You won't get hurt by the dealer who says he has simply stopped selling OR buying.

derryb · March 24, 2020 12:48PM

I always call first, confirm the item is on hand and ready to ship.

roadrunner · March 24, 2020 1:30PM

Remember Haynes Tulving. It will repeat again.

Other than maybe Heritage, I don't think I'd be comfortable having any dealer ship bullion to me. Physical delivery in hand or pass...........

DoubleEagle59 · March 24, 2020 1:40PM

@roadrunner said:
Remember Haynes Tulving. It will repeat again.

Other than maybe Heritage, I don't think I'd be comfortable having any dealer ship bullion to me. Physical delivery in hand or pass...........

Amen to that, brother!

isaiah58 · March 24, 2020 2:22PM

I trust Scottsdale, if they were not shipping it would be all in their eBay feedback by now. I trust other major dealers, I just refuse to buy when they are not shipping until weeks or months from now.

I do agree in hand is preferred. If I was not laid off Friday I was ready to visit my LCS once spot silver was back around 16. It will hopefully be there soon as long as gold stays over 1,600. Then hopefully it moves below 95 to 1 in a short period of time.

derryb · March 24, 2020 2:28PM

@topstuf said:

@derryb said:
a dealer who shows "out of stock" on some items is likely only selling what he actually has on hand. Might be a good green flag.

No. A dealer who is offering to buy OR sell in a market that has gone crazy.
They sell on the wholesale teletype, deposit the money and don't ship.
Conversely, they are BUYING ...high
and stuff is flooding into them but they are selling or refining it to their own sources and KEEPING the money.

You won't get hurt by the dealer who says he has simply stopped selling OR buying.

sounds like your advice is "it's to dangerous to order PMs from any of them."

I agree caution is in order, but sorry, I'm not gonna miss out on another buy of a lifetime opportunity. Also, with buyer protections ebay remains a safe place to shop.

topstuf · March 24, 2020 5:37PM

There are many VERY large wholesalers who are reputable and CAPABLE of handling large quantities of bullion.

This board is comprised of mainly regular buyers of modest quantities and there is no way they can know the intricacies of the metal markets and possible scams that quantity traders do.

Timbuk3 · March 24, 2020 11:43PM

Great advise, thanks for the reminder !!!

bronco2078 · March 25, 2020 4:07AM

@derryb said:

@topstuf said:

@derryb said:
a dealer who shows "out of stock" on some items is likely only selling what he actually has on hand. Might be a good green flag.

No. A dealer who is offering to buy OR sell in a market that has gone crazy.
They sell on the wholesale teletype, deposit the money and don't ship.
Conversely, they are BUYING ...high
and stuff is flooding into them but they are selling or refining it to their own sources and KEEPING the money.

You won't get hurt by the dealer who says he has simply stopped selling OR buying.

sounds like your advice is "it's to dangerous to order PMs from any of them."

I agree caution is in order, but sorry, I'm not gonna miss out on another buy of a lifetime opportunity. Also, with buyer protections ebay remains a safe place to shop.

What opportunity ? Spot went down , cost did not , not a buy at the moment

cohodk · March 25, 2020 5:08AM

@bronco2078 said:

@derryb said:

@topstuf said:

@derryb said:
a dealer who shows "out of stock" on some items is likely only selling what he actually has on hand. Might be a good green flag.

No. A dealer who is offering to buy OR sell in a market that has gone crazy.
They sell on the wholesale teletype, deposit the money and don't ship.
Conversely, they are BUYING ...high
and stuff is flooding into them but they are selling or refining it to their own sources and KEEPING the money.

You won't get hurt by the dealer who says he has simply stopped selling OR buying.

sounds like your advice is "it's to dangerous to order PMs from any of them."

I agree caution is in order, but sorry, I'm not gonna miss out on another buy of a lifetime opportunity. Also, with buyer protections ebay remains a safe place to shop.

What opportunity ? Spot went down , cost did not , not a buy at the moment

I think he meant buying silver at the real price.

derryb · March 25, 2020 6:20AM

He meant "don't let fear of non-delivery stop you if you really wanna buy." Ebay/paypal take the worry out of it.

taxmad · March 25, 2020 6:52AM

Use your credit card if delivery is in question. Doesn't show up by date promised or date is pushed back then initiate a charge-back with your bank. You will pay more to cover the swipe fees, but an extra 3% is cheap insurance against a 100% loss. If you have a cashback card, that will knock the premium down (in my case cut it in half)...

BAJJERFAN · March 25, 2020 7:53AM

@roadrunner said:
Remember Haynes Tulving. It will repeat again.

Other than maybe Heritage, I don't think I'd be comfortable having any dealer ship bullion to me. Physical delivery in hand or pass...........

Hannes.

ricko · March 25, 2020 8:28AM

The large dealers, Apmex, Scottsdale etc., are trustworthy...other than that, I deal with known sellers I have had transactions with in the past....and it is for 'in hand' material and immediate delivery...yes, phone contact. Cheers, RickO

derryb · March 25, 2020 8:52AM

Bought many boxes from Tulving, was lucky to not get caught up in his failure. I do miss his low premiums on bulk purchases.

My go to guy remains David at dbscoins, but I see he is only currently selling on ebay.

topstuf · March 25, 2020 9:12AM

@derryb said:
Bought many boxes from Tulving, was lucky to not get caught up in his failure. I do miss his low premiums on bulk purchases.

My go to guy remains David at dbscoins, but I see he is only currently selling on ebay.

Yes. You were lucky.
It's the larger transactions that REAL scammers aim at. In the OP, the guy was buying silver higher than anyone on the tape so he was getting tremendous action.
PRE scam, he was a reliable guy who raised no suspicion. That's why I shipped him what I did. I had had probably 5 or more previous transactions with NO problems.
It's market MOVES that can do this.

SOME think that all channels are normal when the market ISN'T.

The guy took many other dealers who had done bizz with him.
It's unlikely that anyone would "set up" a scam of that scale with retail buyers. (the public)

HOWEVER ....if you're dealing 1000+ silver or 100+ gold, ......use a confirmed reputable place to deal with.

BAJJERFAN · March 25, 2020 9:22AM

@derryb said:
Bought many boxes from Tulving, was lucky to not get caught up in his failure. I do miss his low premiums on bulk purchases.

My go to guy remains David at dbscoins, but I see he is only currently selling on ebay.

Tulving scammed folks more than once IIRC.

BAJJERFAN · March 25, 2020 9:22AM

@topstuf said:

@derryb said:
Bought many boxes from Tulving, was lucky to not get caught up in his failure. I do miss his low premiums on bulk purchases.

My go to guy remains David at dbscoins, but I see he is only currently selling on ebay.

Yes. You were lucky.
It's the larger transactions that REAL scammers aim at. In the OP, the guy was buying silver higher than anyone on the tape so he was getting tremendous action.
PRE scam, he was a reliable guy who raised no suspicion. That's why I shipped him what I did. I had had probably 5 or more previous transactions with NO problems.
It's market MOVES that can do this.

SOME think that all channels are normal when the market ISN'T.

The guy took many other dealers who had done bizz with him.
It's unlikely that anyone would "set up" a scam of that scale with retail buyers. (the public)

HOWEVER ....if you're dealing 1000+ silver or 100+ gold, ......use a confirmed reputable place to deal with.

Would you have been able to stop the shipment if necessary?

jmski52 · March 25, 2020 9:36AM

I dodged the bullet with Tulving as well. The very last order I had with him was for (2) $250 face bags of 90% silver.

He shipped me (2) $1,000 bags of silver and I called his attention to his mistake, so he sent me a return shipping label for the return of (6) $250 bags. I knew that they were extremely busy and it was simply a shipping error.

For my trouble, I got no thank-you whatsoever. Now, I think that I know why. Nothing mattered to them.

A second close call was with NW Territorial Mint. I ordered a roll of 1/2 oz AGEs from them, and the delivery date dragged on and on, with really no good answers coming from customer service. This went on for about 6 weeks before they finally shipped what they had indicated was in stock when I ordered it.

Ross Hansen offered me a 1/10 oz AGE "to make it right", but of course I never received it.

This is specifically why I try to deal with only the larger mainstream dealers. If there's a problem with them, you hear about it quickly. Pay attention to what you see and hear when the market is tight like this.

topstuf · March 25, 2020 10:03AM

@BAJJERFAN said:

Would you have been able to stop the shipment if necessary?

Nope. It was there.

clarke442 · March 25, 2020 10:07AM

@roadrunner said:
Remember Hannes Tulving.

I had recently read some of the old posts and stories about him
I guess I was lucky to order from him a very long time ago

BAJJERFAN · March 25, 2020 10:51AM

@topstuf said:

@BAJJERFAN said:

Would you have been able to stop the shipment if necessary?

Nope. It was there.

Glad that you got out unscathed.

BAJJERFAN · March 25, 2020 10:53AM

@clarke442 said:

@roadrunner said:
Remember Hannes Tulving.

I had recently read some of the old posts and stories about him
I guess I was lucky to order from him a very long time ago

Such a shame that they never mention being scammed, cheated, ripped off as being risks.

derryb · March 25, 2020 11:09AM

While we're on the subject, let us not forget the dangers in buying "pre-sale" items for ebay entrepreneur wanna-be's. While their intentions are good, they often get caught with their pants down

roadrunner · March 25, 2020 12:10PM

Such a shame that they never mention being scammed, cheated, ripped off as being risks.

And by themselves too ! Tulving was shutdown by the FTC in the early 1990's for selling "rare" coin "investment" packages. You can figure the what. But even some of the "best" dealers lose control of their finances when markets turn. Some of them go to work for the big dealers for a time to work off their debts with them. The little guy has no clue when your previous A+ certified dealer is ready to go under while they have your money or your coins in hand. Precious Metal dealers are some of the most vulnerable with all their eggs in one basket. If they don't carry futures' contracts to hedge market swings....they carry all the risk via their inventory.

topstuf · March 25, 2020 12:16PM

@BAJJERFAN said:

@topstuf said:

@BAJJERFAN said:

Would you have been able to stop the shipment if necessary?

Nope. It was there.

Glad that you got out unscathed.

Took a ....little.. bit of flak on the tape for CALLING HIS BANK !!

johnny9434 · March 25, 2020 12:48PM

@derryb said:
Bought many boxes from Tulving, was lucky to not get caught up in his failure. I do miss his low premiums on bulk purchases.

My go to guy remains David at dbscoins, but I see he is only currently selling on ebay.

I like dbs as well

cohodk · March 25, 2020 1:52PM

So much for no counter-party risk.

Jinx86 · March 25, 2020 2:05PM

@topstuf said:

@BAJJERFAN said:

@topstuf said:

@BAJJERFAN said:

Would you have been able to stop the shipment if necessary?

Nope. It was there.

Glad that you got out unscathed.

Took a ....little.. bit of flak on the tape for CALLING HIS BANK !!

CEE still seems to be an old mans club. I still use it myself time to time, but not nearly to the extent others in the office do. Most of my sales have moved to Round Table Group through Facebook. Still hate using Facebook, especially at work.

BAJJERFAN · March 25, 2020 3:25PM

@Jinx86 said:

@topstuf said:

@BAJJERFAN said:

@topstuf said:

@BAJJERFAN said:

Would you have been able to stop the shipment if necessary?

Nope. It was there.

Glad that you got out unscathed.

Took a ....little.. bit of flak on the tape for CALLING HIS BANK !!

CEE still seems to be an old mans club. I still use it myself time to time, but not nearly to the extent others in the office do. Most of my sales have moved to Round Table Group through Facebook. Still hate using Facebook, especially at work.

My sister in law took a bad check for some vet work. After making a couple trips to deposit it a teller told her when the guy's payroll or whatever hit the bank. She was there johnny on the spot and got her money. Guy called her and threw a rod.

Take EXTREME care with bullion orders

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