Help with unusual 1809 Half Cent
Bliggity
Posts: 200 ✭✭✭
I have been working on die & die state attributions for my half-cent set. I'm very new to this, but I have come across some unusual features on my 1809 9-over-inverted-9 coin. I saw this when I first acquired the coin but just started looking at it more closely today. It was originally in an NGC 40 holder without the 9/i9 variation noted, but it's clearly the 9/i9 and fits all the diagnostics for Cohen-5 / Breen-5. However, there are lots of die chips / remnants on the reverse that don't match any of the die states listed in the Manley book. The weak or missing dentilation suggests 2.0 or 3.0, and the description for 3.0 indicates there may be multiple clash marks within the wreath. But, on my coin: the "O" in "OF" is almost completely filled with a die chip and there is another chip adjacent to the "F"; there is a strange protrusion from the leaf near the "T" in "CENT" and a chip above the "T"; and there are also apparent chips inside the "C" in "CENT" and coming from the adjacent leaf. None of the Manley plates show these features, which would seem to suggest that this is a die state with additional damage beyond Manley 3.0. I have searched for other 1809 9/i9 variations online and have not found one with similar features. Have any of you half-cent collectors seen a similar coin? What would be the proper way to list the attribution for the coin?
Thanks in advance!
Comments
I'd say it's lucky that coin is no longer in an NGC slab anymore. I suggest you send it to them again. It would be best not to mention that it was once slabbed so they can take a fresh unbiased look at the coin,
Interesting coin! Do you have an image of the edge- always like to look at all 3 sides when attributing a coin! I am curious if you broke it out and still have the label/ cert number? I will show images to my half cent friends for their comments and post again later.
Image of the C-5 courtesy PCGS:
I bought the coin on eBay last September. It was still in the NGC XF40 slab. The eBay pictures weren't great but I thought I saw the 9/i9, so I took a chance and got it for a good price. Got it home and cracked it out (my set is in a Dansco). I still have the flip. Also took some edge pictures...this was the best I could do at the moment using a flashlight reflector.
The cert checks out through NGC and they had imaged it in the slab.
Good pictures of the 9/i9....and of the die chips. Cannot help, but sure can see the issue(s) well... Cheers, RickO
Perhaps we are looking at either dirt or corrosion and NOT die chips!
The coin sure looks lighter in the op's photos than the slabbed photo.
Correct - I tinkered with the color in my photos so that the parts in question would show better. The colors in my photos are not accurate to the coin (although the NGC slabbed photo is a little darker than the actual coin also).
Thanks to everyone for the input so far.
My go to half cent expert believes from the images it is the effect of impressed dirt, not die chips.
Forgive me if this is a dumb question. If there were dirt that got between the die and the planchet, wouldn't that result in an incuse impression into the coin like any struck-thru error, rather than the raised anomalies we see here?
I can see how the round or blob-like areas (such as inside the "O," above the "T," and surrounding the "C") could be the result of die corrosion. But I'm struggling to see how this one could be caused by something other than more acute damage to the die:
There is no such thing as a dumb question. We all learn from questions like this and answers from the experts who hang out here.
I'm going with die chips, but I will allow myself to be corrected if wrong.
@Bliggity said: "There is no such thing as a dumb question."
I agree.
Our choices: The coin is either corroded on one side, struck with a ruined reverse die, or counterfeit. Can you magnify the reverse like the images below. One thing common to counterfeit coins is one side is reproduced better than the other. In this case, the obverse looks genuine while the reverse does not. In any case, I'll bet the internet sleuths around here will find a die match if this is a fake.
Best to forget all the nonsense I'm posting and send the coin to PCGS to confirm the NGC opinion!
@Bliggity my go to half cent guy is one of the experts in the hobby and he responded as follows:
"The coin looks authentic to me. 1809 C-5 variety. Those bumps and lumps appear to be dirt adhering to the coin's surface. There are literally thousands of substances that these bumps could be comprised of. Some of these substances may be man made, while others could just be naturally occurring materials in the earth. In some cases, the substance will adhere to the coin in such a way that it becomes fused to the metal surface of the coin. Certain chemical reactions can cause this. One example is when soil has a lot of iron in it. If a coin is placed in this soil, the iron will react with the copper and the results are disasterous for the coin. Now, on the other hand, if you found a second example of this variety with these lumps in the exact same locations, then that would certainly raise the alarm bells. But as far as I can tell, this specimen looks 100% authentic to me."
@Bliggity can you post a couple of images of the edge?
@burfle23 thanks for the assist. Here's the best I could do with the edges; I rotated the coin a few times to get shots of different parts of the edge.
The edge is absolutely correct- nothing bad with this one!