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S.S. Central America $50 Kellogg Restrike
cccoins
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There have been a number of threads in the past discussing the various medals made in the early 2000's using gold recovered from the S.S. Central America. Several posts referenced actual restrikes of the $50 Kellogg coin made from the original dies. Here is one of those seven:
Compare this to an original, and you will see many of the same die breaks. In person, you can see more breaks than shown in the picture. Additionally, each striking of these restrikes seemed to damage the dies worse. In addition to the die breaks, substantial die rust can be shown on Liberty's face. In hand it is an amazing coin.
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Comments
When were those restrikes made?
That is awesome and great to see. I didn’t expect the fields to be so pristine and the star devices (and eagle feathers) to have so much space between them, like the CHS strikes. At first I thought the spacing on the CHS strikes was due to the pantograph transfer process, but it looks like the original dies were polished and then Ron Landis used the pantograph to create the CHS dies.
Do you know if these were indeed polished and, if so, were any struck before polishing?
I believe that they were made in 2001, in the August / September timeframe when they were striking the medals.
I will do some checking and let you know. I was able to get in touch with a few of the people involved with these as part of authenticating it as being from original dies. It was originally listed under the 10238 number like the CHS medals, but is now listed as its own PCGS number.
I was able to confirm that they were not polished, just oiled.
Good to know. Still an interesting look.
Here are 2 others to compare with, an original and a CHS strike. Yours is in the middle. The CHS strike here has tighter star devices than I remember seeing before.
Of note the letters have much flatter serifs on yours than the CHS strike here, though others don't show it.
When you say tighter, I assume that comes from them being engraved deeper in the medal. Do you see the shared Die cracks between the original and the restrike?
That's what I'm thinking.
Yes, I love die cracks and think the matching die cracks on the restrike are great!
Great to look at, but don't they violate the HPA?
That is an incredibly beautiful gold coin.... Wow....must be awesome to hold in hand....Cheers, RickO
Sorry to resurrect an old thread. I'm starting to renew my interest in numismatics (my bank account says this is a Very Bad Idea). So I was digging through a box of stuff I had stashed away. Among other things, I found the accessory set for this Kellogg Restrike. I bought the whole thing at the ANA show in LA in 2009. The coin (slug? whatever) is in the safe deposit box, but I had everything else, including the stand, pamphlets, etc and the receipt. So I know how much I paid for it.
I know some don’t care for the pantograph version, but I really like them.
Very cool to see the original, restrike, and pantograph next to each other!
It's all about what the people want...
I remember this item, struck or at least sold by the Gallery Mint Museum. My recollection is that they were asking something like $3500 or $5000. However much it was, it was really overpriced.
I think some were struck on Sept. 11th 2001.
Are the restrikes 2.5 ounces?
2.42 oz.
Correct, and they carry a premium for that date.
I believe that the issue price was $5,000 for the pantograph version.
I paid $3000 for mine, but that included a trade with some bullion, so my out-of-pocket was around $1300. I wanted it because I liked the idea of having shipwreck gold, and I couldn't afford a double eagle.
Ron Landis of the Gallery Mint Museum did the engraving, but I believe it was commissioned and sold by Dwight Manley. I’m not 100% clear on this last part but it’s from what I’ve been able to piece together.
I believe you are right about GMM striking it. I bought a few GMM items about the time and spoke to someone there about it but it was just too expensive.
$5000 from the above post sounds right, a lot of money relative to the price level at the time.
I remember these pieces
Bowers and Merena sold them
The initial offering prices were based on their restrike dates in 2001
the SS Sonora left SF August 20th 1857
August 20th 2001 $4,995
Her at sea dates 8/21-9/2
8/21-9/2 2001 $4,695
9/3 1857 treasure travels from Panama
across isthmus to Aspinwall
via railroad
9/3 2001 $4,995
SS CA at sea 9/4-9/11 1857
9/4-9/11 2001 $4,695
Sept 12 1857 SS CA sinks
last day of the re strikes being struck
9/12 2001 $4,995
Three coins strike dates
8/20, 9/3, 9/12 2001 $14,500
Complete 24 total restrikes from each date 8/20-9/12
2001 $104,000
I'm not up on the history? Were the restrikes made using recovered coins from the wreck that were melted down and use to make the restrikes or bullion from the wreck that was melted down?
These were struck in San Francisco at the presidio. The California historical society received funds for each sale. They are made 100% from Kellogg and Humbert gold ingots from the ssca. The costs and efforts to make this happen were immense. They provide an affordable way to own a piece of the greatest treasure ever found in American history as well as have a stunning coin that originated from original dies . Ron landis did a superb job and bob Evans also. And they were struck for the 24 days the ssca sailed. The same days 154 years later. And yes , 9/11 they were able to strike 50 before closing down for the day.
Basically, they sliced the top of each ingot off, which had the assay stamps, and such, and kept that. They took the rest of the bar and melted it down.
I don't understand the "Three coins strike dates 8/20, 9/3, 9/12 2001 $14,500" bit, though.
Like others, I eventually acquired one at later date and appreciated hearing from Dwight Manley verification of what I had recalled as to its origin.
Would welcome some added comment though to refresh my recollection with regard to the reference to "originated from original dies." I assume this does not mean that the majority were actually struck from the original dies, although I believe there were a few that were.
@northcoin -
Below is a breakdown by date I found a while back. I cannot recall the source. In essence, all that are dated are from replica dies, and the seven undated are from original dies. I looks like one comment about three coins for $14,500 above might have been referring to the proof issues.
Mine is in an SDB in another part of the country, but I found some pix of it. Mine was minted on September 7.
I acquired the Original dies that struck the Kellogg $50 in 1855 in proof. Ron landis used these to make transfer dies and fro those sets of dies to strike them at the presidio in San Francisco. The dies aren’t “replicas” and the coins struck are as much a coin as any other Re strike coin found in the red book.
Thanks. Do you still have the original dies? Same question as to the whereabouts of the transfer dies. While I assume there are no plans to make additional restrikes is it physically possible that additional restrikes could be made from either the original dies or the transfer dies in the future?
An added question. Apart from adding the date and supplemental legend, did Ron Landis make any alterations to the design itself? In other words, apart from those additions are the restrikes identical in every detail for the coins that were made from the transfer dies as for the seven from the original dies?
Dwight:
Are the dates indicated on each coin reflective of the actual date the coin was struck from the die as opposed to the date the die was prepared?
I wonder if the actual date each coin was struck might have differed from the date shown on each die by a few days?
I find it hard to believe that some of these SSCA restrikes were actually struck on 9/11/01.
In the early fall of 2011, I personally saw that US Mint was already striking 2012 dated Gold America Eagles at the West Point Mint. I was astonished.
I think I read that the "strike date" was stamped after the coin was struck, as a separate step. So maybe they ran 99 through on 9/11 and then stamped them a few days later.
I think Mr Bear is correct they were counterstamped with the strike date
I think Tommy Thompson is still sitting in jail
He at one time had 500 of these pieces
I don’t know what the counterstamped dates on these coins were
Are they still intact
Only time will tell
The dies that struck them were cancelled afterwards. I sold the original dies. They were counter stamped with date of striking the same day they were made and they were struck on the day marked. Yes they were able to get some made 9/11. I had an early call with bob Evan’s who was there at the presidio the entire 24 days. It was a miracle he did that. And no the dies were not altered at all in design but some rust spots were removed in transfer. The 7 originals show the rust clearly.
Thanks again.
I assume that only the transfer dies were cancelled?
Are you able to identify the present owner of the original dies and was there ever any expressed intent to have new transfer dies made from the original dies and/or to add to the 7 that were struck from the original dies?
I was talking to a forum member who held the original dies after these strikes were made and he told me that the fields on the original dies weren't polished. Because of this, he believes these strikes are not from the original dies but early die trial strikes from the transfer dies, before the transferred die cracks and rust were polished off.
Any thoughts on this @Dwight_M or @cccoins?
I recently heard the same story, likely from the same person. Ultimately, I have heard his story, and I value his opinion. I have also seen documentation, such as the chart I posted above, that indicates that these seven are from the original dies.
In the absence seeing the original dies, I continue to believe the written documentation, along with Dwight’s confirmation, as evidence that they are from the original dies. Further, I believe that PCGS did some research the lead then to the same conclusion before they certified them.
Here are high-resolution pictures of both re-strikes:
"Original Die Re-strike": https://pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1855-50-kellogg-original-dies-restrike-s-central-america-dcam/812033/67
"Copy Die Strike": https://pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1855-50-kellogg-comm-restrike-s-central-america-dcam/10238
Side-by-side:
The "Copy" die pair can not have originated from the other die pair. This is because the "Copy" reverse die has "S.S. CENTRAL AMERICA GOLD C.H.S." on the Eagle's banner. Those letters are incuse on the struck piece, which means the letters are raised on the die. Raised letters on a die can not be added to an existing die without removing a lot of metal around them. And this would be especially difficult doing it on a die that was already hardened for use. Also, the width of the banner was increased to accommodate the letters, especially in the area of the "D" in GOLD. So it is evident that the letters were not added to an existing die. Instead, a new die was made.
Now the question: are both of these from transfer dies, or is one from an original die ?
The supposed "Original Die Re-strike" has finer details than the "Copy Die Strike" (sharper hair, for example).
If BOTH pairs of dies were made in transfer from the original dies, then why don't they both have the same level of detail ?
My conclusion is that the so-called "Original Die Re-strikes" are, in fact, strikes from the actual original dies.
This does mean that the Central America Gold people did extensively polish the fields on the original dies, which is something that might seem to be ill-advised to do to valuable vintage dies. But, regardless, it appears that is what they did.
Great information regarding this re-strike. I have been watching a few that have been for sale lately. A great piece of history both with respect to the recovery of the gold and some being minted on 9/11/2001.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 35 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
@dcarr
After reading your comment, I am curious about the rust on the face of the "original Re-strike".
Would be safe to say that had the fields of the original die been polished to produce the mirrored fields, the Relief was left as is to keep a "cameo" contrast?
Perhaps the rust was more extensive originally to include the fields...
It's all about what the people want...
Before polishing, the dies might have been bead-blasted to remove loose rust and scale.
I think that there would have been some rust roughness in the fields, and that was polished out.
Good thoughts Dan. It's always interesting to discuss how things can be made, especially by different minters and die sinkers.
Given that the person saw the dies in person after the coins were struck, I've been thinking about how this could happen.
One thing I've been thinking of:
Why do I think Ron would use practice strikes to hand engrave details?
Because I have one
This pair of Humbert slug die trails from Ron Landis is among my favorite die trails because one of them has been hand engraved by Ron in the creation process.
This is just speculation on my part, but with some insight into how Ron works. Ultimately, inspection of the dies along with the recollections of Dwight and Ron would be the best.