Options
Coin dealer on ebay states he believes this is toning and not PVC
panexpoguy
Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭✭✭
Purchased a rattler. These were the pics;
Got it home and looked at it with offset lighting at an angle and saw this:
I initiated a return. He asked for the pics. I sent them. I explained that the green was active PVC and explained that it would have come from an old flip. He said can't be because PCGS straight graded it. I said it takes a while to show up which is why PCGS has subsequently excluded PCV from their guarantee. I advise him to Google 'PVC on Coins' and see what comes up. He states 'I would argue that it is toning and I disclosed toning in the coin description. I advised if he thought this was toning he was either too ignorant to be dealing in coins, or he knows it is PVC and is just dishonest.
3
Comments
If the seller is a real dealer, you can bet he knows. That looks like PVC to me.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Either way he should just take the coin back and make it easy on everyone.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I don't see it, where is it?
Obverse: Washington's ear, nose and the field in front of his forehead.
Reverse: Active PVC on the wing to the right of the body, inactive PVC on the section above 'QUA' in quarter. Milky emerald green color.
There is a faint green-white haze in spots on both sides (especially the eagle's left wing).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
On the eagle's right wing as you look at it. George's ear for another.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
It looks like pvc to me jmo
Indeed PVC
My YouTube Channel
Seller should take it back for any reason on a Ebay sale including not liking the coin, etc.
Very deceptive photos. Return should be accepted!
This
Like it or not, it is the way eBay currently works. PVC or no PVC, just send it back.
As for the coin itself, it could be putty rather than PVC. But, either way, just send it back
tell him you're not happy and want a return. If he declines file not as described.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
Part of being an honest ebay dealer is accepting returns...
I have had people argue about the condition of a baseball card in a PSA 9 holder that was accurately described and showed close up images. I knew the guy was just hoping for a rip. Take it back and move on.
PVC??? That was the sellers problem from the start.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Yes, looks like PVC as well. You also have the option of sending to PCGS for the guarantee if you want to go that route. It does happen. I once bought a really awesome AU58 bust half from legend on eBay and a year later when I was trying to sell I was told it had PVC. Sent it in to PCGS and they made me whole and sent me the coin. That was before the details grade era. So the PVC fooled me (not so hard), Legend (pretty hard), and PCGS the first time (even harder). It may not have been as evident when slabbed, either.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Sure does appear to be PVC.... I would definitely return that one. Cheers, RickO
Agree with the above. Return it.
My War Nickels https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/nickels/jefferson-nickels-specialty-sets/jefferson-nickels-fs-basic-war-set-circulation-strikes-1942-1945/publishedset/94452
Something green is there! The seller did a good job hiding it and I am sure he knows exactly what he is doing! Who would not?
I would be embarrassed to sell it in its current condition.
Seller wanted to 'let ebay decide' if it should be returned. I declined. I don't need ebay to tell me the sun rises in the East. It does. This is PVC. I did not assume the seller knew it had PVC, I did not try to say I just didn't like it. I did want the coin. But I wanted it in the rattler so cracking out for any reason was not an option.
I did explain what it was and how it got there and I did suggest he Google the matter where there is a plethora of information that would have been educational but he evidently chose not to learn. So I told him that either it was a return, or I would leave a negative feedback and post the coin on this forum so that it would be clear i was correct that it was PVC and he never responded back.
It takes a lot to make me angry, and he succeeded. In over 20 years on ebay and 2500+ purchases I had only ever initiated a return on 3 other items and only left one neg.
Wow contrast in photos - yes it’s PVC
pretty vinyl coloring
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Looks like PVC to me.
PVC, surely.
I too would return it.
I probably wouldn't say: "I advised if he thought this was toning he was either too ignorant to be dealing in coins, or he knows it is PVC and is just dishonest." Why be insulting, especially when seeking a refund?
Lance.
Definitely PVC.
At least he isn't accusing you of putting it there somehow.
Collector, occasional seller
He had declined to authorize a return in three straight replies. If he didn’t know it’s was pvc then he lacked necessary knowledge for the profession. That is ignorance. If he did know what I was talking about, then his suggestion that it was toning was dishonest. The only thing certainly insulted in the interaction was my intelligence.
No way the pvc would not be evident in both photos, therefore hidden and not as described. File and get your funds with shipping both way. Please PM me the sellers name.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Wow those look like 2 different coins in your photo versus the original. Send it back regardless of what he wants. Item not as described.
Seller should take the coin back but the whole deal would have gone smoother by choosing a seller who, unlike this guy, offers to accept returns.
Just sayin'.
If you’re saying it was intentional on the part of the seller, I think you’re being unfair. I’ve seen many cases where images don’t show problems and it has absolutely nothing to do with intent.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Dishonest seller. Send it back , if he doesn't accept it, snad it.
Right now , I have a 1923 SLQ in pcgs 64FH that has a bad green spot, I elected to just sell it like it is, and mention it in the listing, My customer just bought this back in dec (happen to see it , investigating prices realized) In the listing the guy he originally bought it from in dec, doctored the photo's so you cant see the spot, and made no mention of it in his listing. Apparently, my customer missed it when he bought it, or was just to ashamed to send it back.
It sold for 1030 in dec with no mention of spot or visual, lets see what it sells for in 15 min? Ill update
836.00
@Kirk222, the problem, as you read, was old flips. The kind that are very flexible, don't crackle when you bend them, and sorta smell like a shower curtain.
Coins that were stored in them -- common decades ago and even seen occasionally today, were likely to acquire PVC contamination. It often takes a long time to develop to the point where it can be noticed. Which is why we sometimes see coins in TPG slabs with it. The PVC contamination wasn't apparent when they were initially graded.
Years ago PCGS would clean up the mess, free. But about five years ago PCGS changed directions and declared that any problems that arose after slabbing, from milk spots to PVC or other damage, were not covered by their guarantee. The good news is that often PVC can be treated and removed safely and completely. If a coin sat for years untreated it might very well be damaged from an etching of the surface underneath.
The PVC danger has been well known for a long time. Modern flips and albums are PVC-free as well as the plastic slabs used by TPG's. So you shouldn't worry about PVC contamination from them. BUT, if the coins had been exposed to it before storage it could develop and be seen (which is probably what happened to your SLQ's). Dip them in 100% acetone overnight, rinse them well with water and a final rinse in distilled water. Gently(!) pat them dry.
Lance.
Good job on the honest description.
It doesn't look bad (although it has spread to other parts of the obverse...under GOD and TRVST, e.g.). I'd bet it conserves nicely. Maybe a small dark spot at the inner shin.
Lance.
From lots of experience, I can say the the more ‘head on’ a photo is of a coin with pvc, the harder it is to see. When I buy a rattler from ebay I hold it under a specific light at about a 20 degree angle and if there is pvc, it lights right up. It is possible that the seller may not have been aware of the pvc On the coin, but certainly was when I sent him the pics.
In all fairness to the seller there were 2 other photos in the listing. Seller may not have been aware.
But he was once the buyer sent him the photos of the PVC. He should give a return.
It's discovery. I believe you should receive a full refund.
If you were the dealer, with almost 20 years on ebay:
A Coin is in a PCGS holder
B You have a feedback of 100% with over 1000 inputs
C Is is an old rattler so it has many years under it's belt.
D You have 2 pictures each of the front and back, and they can be easily magnified.
E You have a clearly stated policy of no returns
F) The potential buyer makes a best offer, so obviously they have studied the coin.
G) The potential buyer has a feedback of 4
Would you leap at offering a return, when you do not allow returns?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-P-PCGS-MS65-Rattler-Silver-Washington-Quarter-Toned-/233290086546?hash=item36512c3892:g:GW4AAOSwiHFdL5eK&nma=true&si=9WkTCeXZ9R%2B3ndociuGHmPx4qHQ%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Well looks like he got his return after all!
I hope everybody is happy now so we can keep on buying!
This comes up in various forms on this board all the time.
If a forum member is selling the coin and they get a return request, the forum all jumps in and says how awful eBay is an it's not fair that buyers will return things when you have no returns.
If a forum member is buying the coin and they want to request a return, the forum jumps in and says how awful eBay is that they let dealers cheat them by misrepresenting items and then refusing to take them back.
We are nothing if not inconsistent. LOL.
Return it. Coin doesn't match the pictures.
The feedback left says the seller refused the return but the reply says he accepted it and made a refund. Both things can't be true.
"Sorry you didn't like the coin. Please return it and I'll issue a full refund on receipt."
This would have been the appropriate response, IMO.
I have more years on ebay than this seller and more feedbacks across my accounts, so I guess that would make my assertion of PVC (true regardless of me saying it) stronger than sellers assertion (simply incorrect no matter who says it) that it was toning. Tongue is in my cheek. All that is at issue is this coin and this sale.
I have boxes of rattlers. Many with green and gold CAC stickers, but none with PVC.
Can you please post enlargements of seller's pictures that show the PVC as mine do? I am curious if they will, because I dont see it in his pics. I did not assert that he had a motive when I initiated the return, I just asked for a return because of undescribed damage.
So a seller can have a 'no returns' policy and then go buy problem certified coins at auction, crack them out, sell them raw on ebay with no disclosure of the known issues, and decline a return if buyer notices the issues? Remember, when buying online I only get to see what the seller wants to show me. 15 seconds in hand in his shop would have told me that this coin was a hard pass at any price.
Of course I made an offer on a coin that had been listed for quite a while and was asking a nice premium over guide. Wouldn't you? I don't know anybody who tries to spend the most that they can on a purchase of anything.
Note that I never posted the sellers name, did not link to the transaction, and never PM'd anyone seller information. Others did that. I only ever fought one return I received and that was when the buyer deliberately damaged the item to say he was returning it because it was damaged. He could have returned it because it was Tuesday for all I cared. All other returns honored without question. If someone doesn't like it, send it back for any reason.
And for the record, I discussed this sale with the seller via ebay in several exchanges across about 45 minutes and and the third time he asserted that his argument was that it was toning, I responded that I was prepared to leave a negative and discuss the sale on the forum so that it would be clear that others would recognize the PVC. He continued to bury his head in the sand and never responded back. So I kept my word. Only after that did he take any action to facilitate a return and it was too late as I had called my Credit Card company and discussed the matter and they had made me whole.
The whole thing should have been me asking for a return, seller asking for, and receiving, pics clearly showing the pvc, and seller approving a return. It could have been that simple. It is not unreasonable to expect the ability to enjoy a hobby without getting screwed.
Buyers aren’t supposed to use the threat of negative feedback as a weapon.
Force issue for return thru eBay.
The lesson here is- if you want a return option, don't buy from sellers who don't offer one.
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner
You will always win the return game on ebay, but it does not mean you should play in that pool.
Feedback threat is always good to have it removed later.