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Conundrum: When you start believing your own hype about a coin?

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  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2020 4:31AM

    "To date, NEVER have I bid on a coin or purchased a coin that I did not intend on keeping."

    I am a bit surprised. Learning to be a savvy collector, in my view, requires learning about how the business end of the hobby functions. At some point, your coins will likely be sold (perhaps by your heirs). When I think about buying something (coin, medal, token, book,..), I habitually ask myself what the likely outcome would be should I decide to turn around and try to sell it.

    There have been times when I purchased coins/exonumia, knowing that there was a chance that I might not end up keeping them. One time I kept a coin all of two weeks, because I changed my mind about it (LOVED the toning, didn't care for the strike). Selling a coin is much harder than buying it in the first place, at least for me. I don't like to haggle, for starters, and there are different venues for selling (which make not work well for all the items in one's collection). However, I realize that occasional selling helps me to maintain an element of realism regarding what my collectibles are worth (not to me, but to others). I have assembled sets of U.S. and foreign coins, and later sold them (for more than I paid, sometimes fortuitously), reserved the money and then used it to start something else a bit later on. This is perhaps anathema to some collectors, who stay focused on a particular facet of the hobby, but it works for me.

    Another reason to occasionally sell something: use these experiences as training exercises regarding your eye for quality (or distinctive features). It is one thing to have another collector/dealer inspect one of your coins and say it's nice, it's another to get him/her to like it enough to make a respectable offer to buy it.

    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That Vietnamese bar is far more interesting--good choice.

    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Weiss is the Pied Piper of the forum. :D

  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @topstuf said:
    Weiss is the Pied Piper of the forum. :D

    Weiss tends to be anything but brief when he's talking about something he thinks is cool. Ask my wife.

    But I was really having a hard time with this one and I was running out of time on the offer.

    I think part of the problem is that the price I paid for the bar had a bigger psychological impact on me (thanks, @BillDugan1959 ) than my own research. How could it be as valuable or as good as the JM or Engelhard bar when I only paid melt for it? And I paid melt for it including the juice AND shipping!

    Really appreciate the sounding board on this one, guys.

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020 4:21PM

    @Weiss I was really not thinking of you specifically when I made the first statement about
    "delusional behavior and beliefs".

    But if you happen to embrace it, there is much help available in the friendly confines of Chambana and the Univerity of Illinois.

    There are simply so many people on this forum (especially the Noobs) who believe in things that cannot EVER come to fruition in reality.

    Coins is really a casino game. A few win, many lose. I'd suppose that I've been close to delusional myself, but then I get an extra base hit now and again to tighten things up a bit.

    P.S. I'd like to have a "boat" style silver Sycee, but I'd bet 80% of what is on today's market is post-1949.

  • SmudgeSmudge Posts: 9,751 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I remember that from the PM forum. I would have kept it too. Just a fascinating piece with terrific historical significance.

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's not the MONKEY CURSE bar is it? :p

  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,924 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's a really interesting story and a good description of how things still slip through the cracks even in the internet age. But now that you've made your score, I'd go for the Engelhard.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,390 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillDugan1959 said:
    Yes, it is hype. Cost matters. And if you are using logic, how many 55 double dies were found in rolls or in circulation as late as 1970? How many persons who obtained any 55 double die before 1970 still have them?

    Cost matters very much and it is sheer dealer hype to throw a potential/possible customer off that vital fact.

    @MasonG said:

    @BillDugan1959 said:

    @MrEureka said:
    Cost is irrelevant. Just ask yourself if you would rather be a buyer or a seller at the offered price.

    Is this a humorous example of dealer hype?

    I'm sure it's not hype. If you found a 55DD Lincoln in a roll 50 years ago, is your cost relevant wen it comes to considering a sale?

    I guess I need to clarify my point for those who did not read my comment in the context of the thread. Yes, cost does matter when you’re buying. But aside from the tax ramifications, cost shouldn’t matter in the least when it comes time to consider selling.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020 9:50PM

    .

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020 9:58PM

    My choice would have been to keep it as well @Weiss . I like the history, look and rarity of the Vietnam piece a lot. For rare items, research is needed and sometimes you can get it for a steal. Acquisition price shouldn't necessarily factor into whether you keep a piece since sometimes you can cherry pick a piece and sometimes you are just plain lucky!

  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Justacommeman said:
    .

    No, you're right. They're not mutually exclusive. :)

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You got it for a song. You must like it or you wouldn't be hesitating to sell it. Keep it. Enjoy it. That's what you really want to do. Why flip it?..........You don't need the money.

  • mannie graymannie gray Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sell before you talk yourself out of it.

  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am curious. What makes contemporary (in my eyes) silver bars more valuable than stacks of ASEs or other silver rounds? That Vietnamese bar, to me, is the centerpiece of that collection of bars, rather than the odd man out.

    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 23,130 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bought at melt and offered 85% of moon money, I'd keep it especially since you now have as good as the documentation can possibly get. I was ready to tell you to sell it until I read the entire thread. You can sell the bar anytime you want. If you're into bars, it's a keeper - hands down.

    Good job, Weiss. Good post.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you like the item....if it holds your interest....The history, the appearance, the scarcity.... Then keep it.... If you lose interest and move on to other areas, then sell. Good choice to keep it.....Cheers, RickO

  • divecchiadivecchia Posts: 6,688 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Congrats on deciding to keep it. To me it looks like it could be the centerpiece of your collection.

    Donato

    Hobbyist & Collector (not an investor).
    Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set

    Successful transactions: Shrub68 (Jim), MWallace (Mike)
  • 1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 14,111 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Based on what the OP said..................I'd sell it :)

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko

    Bad transactions with : nobody to date

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,204 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Weiss said:
    But isn't there some value to the story itself? "Would you believe I only paid X for this?"

    Of course, the opposite is also true: "Would you believe I essentially got this for free, because I sold X and bought this with the proceeds".

    There is more value in the second story, where you realized Obscene Profit™. The story to avoid is, "I got this coin for what was once a song and blew an opportunity to cash in for Obscene Profit™ before the market softened."

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 23,599 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd take the 85% offer. >:)

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Sonorandesertrat said:
    I am curious. What makes contemporary (in my eyes) silver bars more valuable than stacks of ASEs or other silver rounds? That Vietnamese bar, to me, is the centerpiece of that collection of bars, rather than the odd man out.

    Bars...(those less than 100oz).... sell PRONTO out of a showcase. FAST !!!

  • PurpleEchoPurpleEcho Posts: 139 ✭✭✭

    Weiss, what does the reference to 'bride price' mean? Was it a standardized sum for a dowry in that era?

    AKA Pakasmom

  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2020 3:27PM

    Weiss, what does the reference to 'bride price' mean? Was it a standardized sum for a dowry in that era?

    That seems to be a reference to the bars of exactly 10 Lạng. Bride Price is where something of value is given to the bride's family for her hand in marriage, as opposed to a dowry, where something of value is given to the groom's family for taking the bride.

    As to what the standard sum was: Remember these bars were money. It seems they likely had a ceremonial or traditional component vs. coins or whatever other standard of trade was being used. But silver was money and money, for the most part, was silver.

    Per Wikipedia, a lạng was approximately 37.8 grams. So in answer to your question: if Opitz was correct, the expected amount paid to the family of a bride for her hand in marriage was a 10 lạng bar of pure silver--roughly 378 grams or 12.15 troy ounces of pure silver.

    Further extrapolation is probably unnecessary. But from a 21st century coin collector's perspective (and if my math is correct): That amount of silver would have translated into just shy of 16 Morgan silver dollars or, probably more accurately, 19 1/2 Mexican 8 reale coins.

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Personally, I'd sell it. I'm a collector only. ( 55 years ) and I pretty much stick to my core collection.

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,816 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2020 7:29PM

    @TDN says a lot of smart stuff but my fav is the best time to sell something is when you have a buyer

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,681 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Crypto said:
    @TDN says a lot of smart stuff but my fav is the best time to sell something is when you have a buyer

    Agree. This is especially true for esoteric thinly traded collectables.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Sonorandesertrat said:
    I am curious. What makes contemporary (in my eyes) silver bars more valuable than stacks of ASEs or other silver rounds? That Vietnamese bar, to me, is the centerpiece of that collection of bars, rather than the odd man out.

    I like the way you put it that the Vietnamese bar is the centerpiece of the collection. It's a rare, historic bar.

  • renman95renman95 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Flipski!

    Thank me.

  • scotty1419scotty1419 Posts: 928 ✭✭✭

    @Sonorandesertrat said:
    "To date, NEVER have I bid on a coin or purchased a coin that I did not intend on keeping."

    I am a bit surprised. Learning to be a savvy collector, in my view, requires learning about how the business end of the hobby functions.

    I find this very relevant. In coins and in my other hobby, I'm constantly trying to learn about material outside my wheelhouse so that when opportunities come up I can take advantage - maybe keep a cool piece I wasn't focused on, or be able to make some money selling to help fund my main collection. My other hobby has essentially paid for itself through this practice.

    Being focused on a certain collection doesn't mean you should ignore such opportunities.

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    People can keep whatever they can .......afford......to keep.

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2020 7:11AM

    You made a great choice.

    @Weiss I truly appreciate you making this post. It is both entertaining and instructive to have a look inside the thought processes of other collectors.

    Edit to add: Based on that one group photo alone, it looks like you have a world-class bullion collection. Congratulations!

  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Quick follow-up: HA's weekly darkside auction just happened to have a companion piece to the one I'd posted about. It's a 10 Lang bar, so less than half the size. But slightly earlier, with really pretty markings top and bottom. Another Opitz piece, and this one is actually the one pictured below on the same page of Opitz's book that mine is shown on.

    Thought it would be neat to have both pieces shown on the same page.

    HA's estimate was $200-$300. I figured I'd gotten a bargain on the first one so I could shove a little more toward this one. Threw a $400 bid at it--about twice melt (recall I'd gotten my bar for melt including BP and shipping).

    I was winning the bar when I was outbid on another item I'd bid on at the same auction (the lot of Tiger Tongues). So I tossed some of that money at this bar (up to about $800 total) just to be sure I'd get it.

    This afternoon I was outbid. I thought it over but couldn't bring myself to go any higher. So my powder remained dry.

    Checked it just now, and it closed at $1200. Congrats to the winner, hopefully someone on the forums who saw this thread and took a liking to these unusual pieces of trade.

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • CoinRaritiesOnlineCoinRaritiesOnline Posts: 3,680 ✭✭✭✭

    @Crypto said:
    @TDN says a lot of smart stuff but my fav is the best time to sell something is when you have a buyer

    I was going to post this exact same comment but you beat me to it. I first heard this from Tony Terranova and I think it is one of the most valuable pieces of advice I've received.

  • scotty1419scotty1419 Posts: 928 ✭✭✭

    @CoinRaritiesOnline said:

    @Crypto said:
    @TDN says a lot of smart stuff but my fav is the best time to sell something is when you have a buyer

    I was going to post this exact same comment but you beat me to it. I first heard this from Tony Terranova and I think it is one of the most valuable pieces of advice I've received.

    It's very easy to fall into the trap of hesitating on a sale when someone wants to buy. You start to wonder: Am I selling too cheap? Is it better than I was thinking? Multiple times when I've agreed to sell an item for moon money (and executed), I've still felt an emotional hesitation (greed?) suggesting that maybe I shouldn't sell or maybe I could get more...

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