If a coin is AT yet not obvious, is it still AT?
abcde12345
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So you purchase a coin that has been professionally colored so as to provide the appearance of natural yet colorful patina but the coin was manufactured to appear as such, is it still AT?
Would you change your mind if it becomes housed in a top tier holder?
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No. It's market acceptable
It's either AT or it isn't. Those silver eagles that look like the have been painted are AT even it the label says they are not!
Yes, it's still AT.
No, I wouldn't change my mind if it straight grades.
If a coin is artificially white is it actually white?
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
The simple answer to that question is yes.
It's really good counterfeit color?
The issue imo is Less "binary AT vs NT" but how scarce/easy to duplicate/oh much does it cost?
As usual with all fake/tribute/fantasy/fetish modern reproduction replica copies and color coins manufactured to meet demand
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
yes, it's still scratched.
It’s either AT or it isn’t, only if you can agree upon a definition of “AT”.
Despite the efforts of and debates among multitudes of market participants - many of them, extremely knowledgeable - I have yet to see such agreement.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If you don't know it, it won't hurt you.
If a coin is AT yet not obvious, is it still AT?
If a woman is pregnant yet not obvious, is she still pregnant? lol
So my question would be " WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF AT " ? If experts disagree if a given coin is AT or NT, who's right ?
In our case it is what PCGS says it is.
Dimeman, agree 100 %
Look, in MANY cases there is absolutely no way to distinguish AT from NT - unless you were around the entire time it took the coin to tone. There are too many variables including the passage of time and many good coin doctors.
In the 1970's, when toned coins were very scarce, I was using a microscope to view them. Eventually, I decided to do what we do now. if the toning looks natural
it is. Today, we call it "market acceptability."
This AT/NT stuff is silly because there is a "line" with toned coins and once we get near it most GUESSES are probably incorrect!
Experimentation is a key. You need to AT coins to be able to recognize them. Knowledge is a key. The folks who had access to the dollar bags and dealt with dollars before the "toning glut" have a step up on most of us.
Let's get over it. if someone can take an unattractive, dirty coin and clean it up so it is preserved, market acceptable, and worth more money, the should be rewarded. Oh, they already are!
Well if someone can take a gem white dollar and make it even more attractive with beautiful colors they should be rewarded too. Perhaps they already are.
If a woman is pregnant yet not obvious, is she still pregnant??
if a man says something and no woman hears him, is he still wrong??
Yes, and YES!!
There is no Schrodinger's Cat of numismatics. Toning is not both artificial and natural at the same.
Arguing AT vs. NT is getting yourself out in the weeds. Bottom line- what matters is MA.
edited to add... that's if you're talking about selling anything. As far as what you choose to collect, well- knock yourself out.
And what is it if the same coin is deemed to be “AT” by them one time, but not the next (or previous) time?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Or "questionable color"? Then it could be either...
We are at their discretion.
I give up.
Can you ever be sure that some future "test" or observation might determine that a coin is actually
AT. If you know it is AT, selling it without that information is fraud.
So NO.
I have some new designations:
ACT Accelerated toning. Coins that are toned with some "Help" within a couple of
months to a couple of years.
HAT Hyper Accelerated Toning. Coins that are "Helped" within a couple of seconds
to a couple of weeks.
This should settle any confusion
Edited for above
AT is AT but some AT coins can be quite attractive, such as this one-
I actually thought it might be NT and considered bidding on it until I looked at some of the sellers other coins, like this one-
Every coin this seller has, around 80 total coins up for bid is like this, some better and some worse but all appear to be AT.
So if you were to submit a coin (which you “knew” was NT) and it was deemed to be AT, you’d just keep or sell it, as is, for an AT price? You wouldn’t even consider resubmitting it?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Isn't that where "Questionable Color" (QC) comes in?
This debate has raged on this forum for as long as I have been here...and maybe longer....tarnish is tarnish... whether it occurs naturally or with an accelerated process...it is, and always will be, environmental damage. A general consensus was reached here about fifteen (or more) years ago...that the prime ingredient in AT was 'intent'...If someone purposely induced tarnish, then it was AT... well, of course, that cannot be measured, but only guessed at... just like most other determinations of this phenomena. There are methods to induce the tarnish quickly....some of us have done such experimentation.... there are other methods, slower, such as envelopes/napkins on the bathroom windowsill..... or a ziploc with boiled egg yolks...
So, if tarnish is your focus, then pay the premiums or do it yourself...Enjoy the hobby....Cheers, RickO
AT or NT? Easy answer: flip a coin to decide.
It would depend on several things. I don't like to play that game. I would probably put the coin in my set and look for a better one. If it is a hard to find variety it will probably sit in my set for a long time. If it is a common coin probably not so long. I do have several coins (varieties) in my sets that I will continue to look for replacements.
I’ll give you credit for at least sounding consistent.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
the next door neighbors daughter might be slightly pregnant. either you are or you are not, just saying
This is the second reference to pregnancy. Was Mary pregnant with Jesus?
Has this been discussed before? I can't recall.
Smitten with DBLCs.
Begging the question.
The real issue is: if the pregnancy test is ambiguous, is she or isn't she?
I think intent is a key variable in this discussion. For if a coin is placed in a taco napkin to create a toned coin, then definitely AT, but if coins are placed in an album 50 years ago and the coins become toned then NT. If chemicals are used to induce toning, then AT. It is not as easy a question to develop a definitive answer to as intent and opinion are hard to measure and qualify. JMO
JIm
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
So if you put 2 identical coins in adjacent holes in the same album and hope pray and intend for the 1st to tone and for the 2nd to remain untoned and leave it 10 years and they tone identical, then the 1st is AT and the 2nd is NT?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
So if you intend to tone a coin and place it in a taco napkin, the resulting toning is AT? What if you unknowingly place a coin in a taco napkin and the coin ends up toning?
What if you buy a coin album that you know has sulfur in it, place coins inside it and they tone, as hoped? What if you place coins in an album, which you hope will protect them from oxidation, but they end up toning?
There are major problems with using intent in order to distinguish AT from NT.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I put 1000 silver eagles in a chamber full of hydrogen sulfide gas just praying they wouldn't tone. Damn things came out with monster rainbows. Damn natural toning...
I'm a firm believer that the AT/NT definition is always going to be flawed. So I'm sympathetic to your point. But the intent argument is a non-starter. After it's been sold 3 times, you are never going to know what the original intent was.
If I put a coin in an old album intentionally and then sell it 50 years from now with "natural toning", why is that toning any different than the person who put it in an old album without knowing what would happen? It's exactly the same chemical process.
[Personally, I would argue they are both artificial toning because the coins would not have toned if you hadn't put them in the chemical environment of the album.]
It's getting late here.....
It will always be AT.
Perhaps, but there is a Nemo's Dog of numismatics. Both NT and AT can exist together on the same coin.
Good point. I thought he meant could the same toning be both NT and AT versus whether parts could be AT/enhanced and other parts be NT.
This has come up over twenty years ago. A famous numismatist sent a coin to a TPGS that had toned naturally over several years while in his bank vault. The TPGS body bagged it as AT. The stink hit the numismatic press!
I'll need to call him to find out whatever happened in that case.
@Zoins said:
AFAIK "Questionable Color" is AT just as "Questionable Authenticity" is Counterfeit. They are both legalese weasel terms to protect the TPGS. "Questionable" is not the same as "we are not sure" (No Decision).