Detroit from city of Champs to Chumps.

fiveninerfiveniner Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭

I can not believe how bad our teams are.Who else would rehire a coach and GM of the Lions except the Fords?
Mike Illitch must be rolling in his grave watching his son destroy his two toys he built. Alex Avila goes down as the worst general manager in baseball.The players he picks up are other teams reject and low prospects.
The independent teams that play in Metro Detroit could beat the team we put on the field now.

Tony(AN ANGEL WATCHES OVER ME)

Comments

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You still have Harbaugh, though he is an hour away.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,616 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Detroit fan. My condolences.

    Hello, I'm a Joe Louis card addict.

  • JRR300JRR300 Posts: 734 ✭✭✭

    it's a shame that the Lions are wasting the productive years of Matt Stafford. By the time they are able to get it turned around, he'll be well past his prime.
    The Tigers should be in full rebuild mode now, which will take years. Always tough when you have older players and gamble that there is one good run left; just kills you when it doesn't work out.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 20,514 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Curse of Bobby Layne marches on ....

  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭✭

    I know the Red Wings are going to get better but it sure is tough to watch right now. I'm willing to put up with it since I know we were spoiled with 25+ years of awesomeness but ... still. The lack of talent is really, really painfully apparent.

    And agreed about Matt Stafford - he's been completely wasted by the Lions.

  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2020 2:33PM

    what was Avila supposed to do with that mess? The Tigers were an aging team with rapidly declining stars. They had no choice but to rebuild. Dombrowski did what Dombrowski does - builds up a winning core with good signings while trading away all of the farm system. So there was nothing in the system behind all of these aging guys.

    And when Detroit began this tear down, there was no one who was going to bring anything back in trade. Victor Martinez wasn't going to bring anything of value back for a DH with no power making $15m a year. Miguel Cabrera is/was breaking down, and now he's an unmovable albatross. Jordan Zimmermann was a terrible signing from the jump...his velocity was in decline before they signed him and Avila didn't give him or Cabrera those contracts. Castellanos was ok, but his numbers in Detroit weren't going to bring back much for a bat only corner guy. Boyd has some value and at least it looks like they're going to hit on some of the recent draft picks provided Casey Mize's shoulder doesn't secede from his body. Matt Manning looks like he could be a #2 starter.

    The Tigers are doing what they should be doing - building up as much young talent that they can and you should hope that they don't do what the Phillies did which was watch Hamels, Howard, Utley & Rollins decline while holding on to them while they declined and in turn getting nothing for them in return - then rebuild for only two years and then go spend a bunch of money on aging players while the Nationals and Braves are fielding better teams in their own division so their contention window is so slim they'll be heading back into a rebuild in a couple years again.

    and basically it's the same for the Wings. Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg were cashed, roughly all at the same time. Kronwall has always sucked, no matter how many yobs in U of M hoodies tell you he was great - and he fell apart once Lindstrom wasn't around to drag him along to being a $4m player. It's not 1980-2002 anymore. You can't exploit your fellow Canadian born GMs bias against European players like Ken Holland did for a decade+. You're not getting star players in the late draft rounds anymore. All of these European leagues have online streaming services, college and Canadian Junior hockey is on TV, RSN's or streaming all the time. Scouting is much easier now. And for 20+ years the Wings were drafting at the end of the 1st round. The Wings don't have one top 4 defensemen. How do you expect to win anything with that? That's not on Chris Illitch and you're not getting the Brett Hull and Luc Robitaille mercenaries chasing a cup in the salary cap era.

    Free Agency in the NHL is barely a thing anymore. With the exception of John Tavares (who went home), most top players stay where they were drafted on a monster 8-12 year deal largely because the "bridge contract" is mostly gone. There's the 3 year entry level contract when the players is making nothing, then prior to about 3 years ago, most players then signed a "bridge deal" which was a 2-3 year intermediary contract before then getting the large long term contract. But now the bridge contract is mostly gone. Players are going right from the entry level deal to the long term mega deals. So it's basically impossible to build a team in free agency in the NHL anymore. You have to build it up then hope to sign one or two key free agents or swipe someone from some cry-poor team like Ottawa in trade to supplement that homegrown core.

    I mean look at the Kings. They won two cups fairly recently and they're now the second worse team in the league right now - and they weren't even like the Blackhawks who had to tear down because they didn't have the cap room to pay all the players they developed. LA had a solid core, kept that core, won 2 cups (only because Chicago had the audacity to draft better than everyone for a 5-6 year stretch), and now the Kings are garbage with no upside. Doughty is cashed, Kopitar has no help on the wings, Toffoli never progressed. They're in a worse position than the Wings. At least Detroit has 3 good young top 6 forwards in Larkin, Mantha and Felon-Bertuzzi's nephew. Detroit just needs to let all these terrible late-Ken Holland signings expire - the Helms, Nielsen, Jonathan Ericsson, Justin Activator, DeKeyser, Trevor Daley, Mike Green etc. None of those guys are top 6 forwards or top 4 defensemen and they're all making $4m-$6m a year and taking up almost half of the Wings' salary cap. You can't win anything with that mess. That's all on Ken Holland and it's because he couldn't do what he did in the 90's anymore.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,616 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wouldn't mind seeing a Detroit Pistons team like the one from the 80s. They were the kind of team that would walk right up to you, and slap you right in the mouth. I was always entertained when watching them, plus they were pretty darn good. They had that nasty, no holds barred attitude. Yes sir, they were quite entertaining indeed.

    Hello, I'm a Joe Louis card addict.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 28,445 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I guess you are like the fan I saw on TV at the end of the Lions - Tampa Bucks game. He had a bag over his head with “same old Lions” written on it.

    We have the same problems with the Bucks. They have not made the play-offs for a long time. They bet on Jamas Winston at quarterback who had 30+ touchdown passes but also led the league in interceptions and other turnovers. He ended the season by leading the team to a tie in the final minute. Then he threw a game ending pick 6 in the very first play in overtime.

    Now the debate is whether or not to pay him a boatload of money to stay in Tampa. Watch ‘em pay him the money instead of cutting their losses and developing another quarterback.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible.
  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,616 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    I guess you are like the fan I saw on TV at the end of the Lions - Tampa Bucks game. He had a bag over his head with “same old Lions” written on it.

    We have the same problems with the Bucks. They have not made the play-offs for a long time. They bet on Jamas Winston at quarterback who had 30+ touchdown passes but also led the league in interceptions and other turnovers. He ended the season by leading the team to a tie in the final minute. Then he threw a game ending pick 6 in the very first play in overtime.

    Now the debate is whether or not to pay him a boatload of money to stay in Tampa. Watch ‘em pay him the money instead of cutting their losses and developing another quarterback.

    I would cut my losses with Winston. This Jekyll and Hyde crap gets old really fast.

    Hello, I'm a Joe Louis card addict.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,616 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 28, 2020 6:33AM

    Jameis Winston is Dr. Touchdown, Mr. Interception. I think Matthew Stafford could lead the Lions to the playoffs, if he can just stay healthy.

    Hello, I'm a Joe Louis card addict.

  • fiveninerfiveniner Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭

    My gut feeling is if the Lions have a good draft and get good production on the ground from Johnson and Scarborough and pick up a strong pass rusher, and a couple fine secondary players. Offense is not a problem if healthy except maybe a experienced back up QB.

    Tony(AN ANGEL WATCHES OVER ME)
  • JRR300JRR300 Posts: 734 ✭✭✭

    I would never pay Winston what it would take to sign him. A turnover machine is not conducive to consistent team play week in and week out.
    The Lions on the other hand have some very good skill position players. The line play needs improvement. While drafting O lineman is not the sexy, flashy pick on draft day, those guys provide the key to keep your QB upright and make plays. D could also use a few upgrades as was mentioned earlier.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,571 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Lou Nanne appears weekly on a local radio talk show, the host (who knows and cares little about hockey) always asks "what's wrong with the Minnesota Wild?"

    Nanne's response is that it's easier to go from the very bottom to the very top, than it is to build a good team into a Stanley Cup contender. He says you need a few years with high draft picks (that have to turn out to be good/great players) and you can go from terrible to very good. Not many big trades or free agent signings anymore.

    The Red Wings had a fantastic LONG run as an elite team, winning 4 Cups from 1997-2008.

    Would LOVE to see anything approaching that in Minnesota!

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭✭

    That's such a great comment - had never thought about it but Lou Nanne is right. If you're a good team, you've got a lot of salary tied up in guys and you're not getting high draft picks. Hard to get that bump in quality when you're already locked into so much of your roster.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,571 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:
    That's such a great comment - had never thought about it but Lou Nanne is right. If you're a good team, you've got a lot of salary tied up in guys and you're not getting high draft picks. Hard to get that bump in quality when you're already locked into so much of your roster.

    He's a great guest. He revealed how North Stars owner Norm Green wasn't the villain he was made out to be when he moved the team to Dallas.

    The Metropolitan Sports Commission tried to force him to move to the Target Center in downtown Minneapolis when he wanted to stay in Bloomington (parking around the stadium and easy access from the freeway!!!!), they blocked him from opening a mall after he had put millions into the hockey arena. So he said "screw you" and moved the team.

    I will never forget shouting "Norm Green SUCKS" at the final home game.

    Sorry Norm, I didn't know.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭
    edited January 28, 2020 6:50PM

    @JoeBanzai said:
    Lou Nanne appears weekly on a local radio talk show, the host (who knows and cares little about hockey) always asks "what's wrong with the Minnesota Wild?"

    Nanne's response is that it's easier to go from the very bottom to the very top, than it is to build a good team into a Stanley Cup contender. He says you need a few years with high draft picks (that have to turn out to be good/great players) and you can go from terrible to very good. Not many big trades or free agent signings anymore.

    The Red Wings had a fantastic LONG run as an elite team, winning 4 Cups from 1997-2008.

    Would LOVE to see anything approaching that in Minnesota!

    they tried - Suter and Parise were at the time of those signings, a legit 1st pair defender and 1st line LW. That doesn't happen too often anymore. It's just the draft picks that should have surrounded them just never became what they hoped, or were outright brutally bad. But it also hurts when you're perpetually in the middle. A team that makes the playoffs most years but gets bounced in the 1st round. At some point you need those high draft picks. That's the Catch 22 in NHL. It's a gate driven sport since the TV contracts are minimal. Making the playoffs drives revenue, but when you're in the middle, it hurts you in the long run.

    Outside of drafting Haula in the 7th round in 2009, and 2010 when they landed Granlund in the 1st and then Zucker late in the 2nd round, their drafts from 2004 to present have been brutal. Granlund is good, but nothing more than a second line RW. They gave away Nick Leddy for Cam Barker's shot (that's all he had was a big shot from the point) and Brent Burns for Charlie Coyle who never became anything more than a tweener (not really good enough to be a solid 2nd liner, but makes too much money to be a 3rd liner -- this is where teams get killed when it comes to the salary cap -- paying $4m a year for bottom six forwards - see Detroit). Dumba at 7th overall is about the only first rounder who became what he should have become since they drafted Burns in 2003.

    But yikes, look at those other drafts

    Benoit Pouliot at 4th overall (and then followed it up by drafting a goon (Matt Kassian) in the 2nd)
    AJ Thelen at 12th overall
    James Sheppard at 9th overall
    Colton Gillies at 16th overall
    Jonas Brodin at 10th overall (decent second pair d-man, but not at 10th overall)
    Tyler Cuma

    The Wild just could never land that 1st line center or explosive winger post-Gaborik. But if free agency was what it was in the 80's/90's they probably end up winning at least 1 or 2 Cups in this era because the Adam Oates types were always available. But for all the failings in drafting, they did manage to build up some depth with Koivu, Zucker, Haula, the trade for Niederreiter was a good trade. But outside of Parise, they couldn't land any other top end forwards. Had they drafted Kopitar instead of Pouliot, and then just held onto Burns and Leddy, the Wild would have almost certainly won at least one Cup in this era for you. One draft and standing pat could have changed everything. Suter/Burns/Dumba/Leddy/Brodin/Spurgeon potentially on the blueline. That would be tough for teams to overcome.

    You'd also think they would have an advantage of getting more Minny-born Parise types who would want to come home to play. Seems like they should have been all over Blake Wheeler when Boston was looking to trade him. Or Byfuglien when Chicago needed to purge salary cap.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,571 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You are pretty much spot on. They were depending on Coyle and Niederreiter to be big power forward types to help during the playoffs but they both under-performed. Then they started making a lot of money. Both were well liked, but they had to go. If I would have had their size and talent, I would have been a monster, they were just not assertive players.

    I just had to scold a whining Wild fan that Suter and Parise aren't the problem, they were actually bargains (at least so far). Both are solid players, not superstars but very very good.

    I really liked Granlund, talented passer, would do things that surprised everybody. Hated to see him go. He was small and a bit slow, but the best offensive playmaker we have had.

    Their drafting has been horrible!!!!! I can't even remember some of those guys........Benoit Pouliot at 4th overall! OMG.

    Nanne thinks the world of Brodin. Says he would never trade him. Dumba was looking like he was finally becoming a good offensive defenseman but now seems lost since his major injury.

    Dubnyk is erratic, makes several nice saves then gives up a soft goal.

    Koivu is a good defensive forward and very old, Staal still playing well but old, Zucker has some speed and can score. Kunin looks solid.

    YES on Blake Wheeler! He would be leading the Wild in points.

    Next year we get the Russian kid Kirill Kaprizov (I hope), He should step in and really help! If we get more consistent goalkeeping and one more good offensive player (goal scorer) and Kaprizof is as good as advertised, they could make a run.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭

    I guess one could argue the Suter and Parise signings ended up hurting only because if they weren't around, the Wild would have missed the playoffs more often and probably not of had unrealistic expectations when Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA and Washington had better teams. Fletcher was always all in during those years, it seemed. So maybe if Suter & Parise didn't sign there, a rebuild may have taken place by around 2013, and if they tore it down, perhaps the Wild would be a legit contender by 2017-present. Given their draft history, seems unlikely, but maybe they'd have had some top 5 overall picks that even Fletcher & staff couldn't screw up.

    Brodin started out looking like he had the potential to be a top pair d-man, but then those two concussions over the span of a couple months about a year or two into his career just killed that. He hasn't been the same player since. Not his fault, happens to a lot of guys - see Olli Maatta right around the same time too. He's a solid #4/2nd pairing d-man though so at least he wasn't a bust.

    I like Niederreiter but he's one of those players who drives possession, which is great, but there's not a lot of finish on his shot. Just doesn't have a high end release. So you love to have a guy like that on your second line, but only if he's making $3-3.5m a year. When he's making $5m or more, then it becomes a problem. You can only have so many of those types of players until it starts killing your cap. When you have him and Coyle and Mikko making $4-$6 mill a year and struggling to get to 45 points, that's just not going to work unless you have 2 or 3 young players making nothing and piling up 40+ points.

    One thing that probably not even Wild beat reporters wrote about back then, Boston winning that cup post Blackhawks tear down hurt them just as much as those drafts. The Wild and the Avs were the two glaring Bruins copycat teams. Those were the Bruins who had all these "heavy" (in hockey parlance) big 6'3 and taller (and fatter in the case of Lucic) guys including 4 big, slow, dumb 6'4 220+ lb (or larger) defensemen. But they won thanks to the Hawks tear down and the Canucks losing their entire second line to injury (and 2 top 6 defensemen) so a handful of teams starting to chase the "heavy" team mold (though to an extent it did work for LA but only because they had Kopitar and Doughty). But that's when the Wild started to roll out their fleet of slow footed d-men like Clayton Stoner and Justin Falk and John Scott and Scandella. They were turnstiled on the regular and Suter was averaging 30 minutes a game because those guys couldn't be trusted and that era probably took at least a year off of his career cleaning up those messes every night.

  • LarkinCollectorLarkinCollector Posts: 7,238 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I didn't stop in to read a book.

  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2020 4:44PM

    since it's very important that a Cincinnati fan participates in a Detroit thread, I'll tighten it up for you. In addition to Bonds, Biggio, and Piazza, Reggie Sanders was better at baseball than Barry Larkin in 1995. It's true, sorry.

  • LarkinCollectorLarkinCollector Posts: 7,238 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Which of those if from Detroit?

  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭

    Larkin attended U of Michigan. But he probably wasn't deserving of the 1995 MVP there either.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,571 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lanemyer85 said:
    Larkin attended U of Michigan. But he probably wasn't deserving of the 1995 MVP there either.

    So few here understand or care about hockey. I LOVE your posts and read them very carefully.

    You obviously are a "hockey guy", as am I. Most exhilarating sport to play. I wish I was a better skater when I was young!!!!!!!!!

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 21,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:
    I wouldn't mind seeing a Detroit Pistons team like the one from the 80s. They were the kind of team that would walk right up to you, and slap you right in the mouth. I was always entertained when watching them, plus they were pretty darn good. They had that nasty, no holds barred attitude. Yes sir, they were quite entertaining indeed.

    They weren't good.......they were DIRTY!! The dirtest Basketball team EVER!

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  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2020 2:33PM

    @DIMEMAN said:

    @doubledragon said:
    I wouldn't mind seeing a Detroit Pistons team like the one from the 80s. They were the kind of team that would walk right up to you, and slap you right in the mouth. I was always entertained when watching them, plus they were pretty darn good. They had that nasty, no holds barred attitude. Yes sir, they were quite entertaining indeed.

    They weren't good.......they were DIRTY!! The dirtest Basketball team EVER!

    Nah, they were good, too. Three Hall of Famers (and traded away a fourth) and multiple other All-Stars and a Hall of Fame coach. They were dirty but hardly unique in that regard. The Bulls had Bill Cartwright. The Lakers had Kurt Rambis. The Celtics had Ainge and multiple others. The Jazz had Karl Malone and John Stockton. And so on.

    So, yeah, they were dirty but they were also supremely talented.

  • hammer1hammer1 Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭✭

    What dirty thing did Kurt Rambis do?

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