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If a coin is scratched but not obvious, is it still scratched?
Insider2
Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
Most coins are not perfect. Many "old" coins have defects that are not acceptable to many collectors but where does it get ridiculous? If a coin is scratched but not obvious, is it there? Of course it is but does it matter? So, we must consider where the scratch is and how severe it is. We DON'T put our coins under a microscope! 
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If a coin is scratched but not obvious, is it still scratched?
This is a private poll: no-one will see what you voted for.
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Comments
When I first started collecting a scratch was acceptable at a lower grade. But over the years, and seeing more scratches, I changed to pass over those coins. They just aren’t for me.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
The bulk of that scratch seems irrelevant to the value of the coin. Hits on the bottom bands might be of note if the coin were valuable and slightly better struck, perhaps?
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
LOL...…...is this like being "almost pregnant".
Do you have any idea how many times I have had dealer comment very negatively about my 16x loupe and why I use something that powerful? Your pictures seem to capture my boiler plate answer... I just want to see and know what I am buying. The coin has what most would concede is a minimal mark that likely constitutes a scratch. The magnification does not make it disappear to the extent it Is non-existent.
I voted other
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
If I like it, and can afford it I buy it, straight grade, no grade, raw or slabbed.
I buy coins for me, not graders, sellers, buyers, or any one else.
I doubt if I will ever say 'I have the money for that XF details Fugio , and truly want it, but that scratch just ruins it for me. '
It depends on the coin. For example, since yours is a Merc, I just purchased a 1916-D PCGS G4. It is a clearly circulated coin but man...the stories that coin has. On a coin such as that which has an estimated 10,000 surviving examples (which to me is the rarest coin I own) I am much more lenient. Especially when my budget does not allow for a $3,000 F grade, $4,000 VF grade, $7,000 XF, and then well over $10,000 for AU or MS. This coin has scratches and it does not bother me one bit.
Now if we were talking a 1909-S VDB or another coin in which you can find blemish free examples, I am much more picky.
Collector of Lincoln Cents (Wheat Reverse) and Winged Liberty Head Dimes (Mercury Dimes)
The coin you are showing is a early date S mint coin before 1926. I would certainly take that fact into account when pricing the coin.
Ken
Every coin looks horrible if you magnify it enough.
It reminds me of a story my high school math teacher used to tell us. If a boy and a girl are 100 feet apart and they move toward each other and cut the distance in half, they're still 50 feet apart. If they do it again, they're still 25 feet apart. If they do it a million more times, they still aren't together..........
"But they're close enough for all practical purposes."
"**Every **coin looks horrible if you magnify it enough."
This
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
The bottom band hit is disappointing. I do examine all my coins with magnification. I'm glad that I can. There is much to see. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall
Now that I know there is a scratch... well... time to hunt...
Other: yes, it's still scratched. OTOH, I may or may not care depending on the size and optical impact of the scratch, and how much I like the coin otherwise.
Please tell everyone how you know.
It is easy to tell if a Merc is minted before 1926. The branch just above the middle band from 1926 untill the end of the series does not touch the bundle of sticks. Actually some of the coins minted in 1924 and 1925 show the incomplete branch also.
Ken
Why don't the ANA grading standards define scratches?
Spots stains and scratches are not defined specifically in the ANA grading charts. I know at least one numismatist has been working on this omission for a long time.
I treat spots like bagmarks - size, color, and location. Scratches are much more complex due to their location,
severity (length, width, depth), and grade/age of the coin.
Thanks @Fairlaneman
1939-P
I can say sometimes the graders don't mind an old scratch and sometimes they do! I see coins straight graded with an obvious scratch and then see a coin details graded for a scratch you have to hunt to find!
1983-P 25c PCGS MS65
Note the scratch on the C in AMERICA on this coin.
Should this have kept the coin out of a MS65 holder?
It is my understanding, much like others here, a scratch is a scratch. It depends on the severity of the scratchL but also the age of the coin is taken into account too.
If you are not being funny, that's a very nice specimen for a coin grading teaching set! Probably needed to be a better strike with a newer die because the TPGS do not grade coins by their "technical" condition of preservation.
Thank you for the reply Insider 2. Although I have been collecting for many years, I never really became too proficient at grading. As always, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge in this area.
A scratch is a scratch, damage if you will, just like toned silver is environmentally damaged. No way should they ever straight grade. I'll pass, I like my coins pure and beautiful. Regards!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
I will agree to an extent. I do not believe some coins are feasible in "perfect" condition for many. I'd love a MS condition 1916-D but I also do not have $30,000+ for one. Heck, I'd take a XF condition one but again, I do not have $7,000+ for one. I mean, I guess if I sold my entire collection. I could get one in XF condition...but that's no fun. Lol
Collector of Lincoln Cents (Wheat Reverse) and Winged Liberty Head Dimes (Mercury Dimes)
If a coin is common and easy to find problem free, then i want a nice one, and will tolerate no problems, even nearly invisible ones.
For a coin that's rare and desirable in any grade, I'll consider net graded (and, importantly, priced) coins with certain problems, scratches among them.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it...you know the rest.
As far as error coinage goes a scratch would not bother me on most errors. The coin is somewhat "damaged" to begin with.
Me, I have one rule to reference, if I see, feel, hear...( Tools ? Too late I saw it.)...
..the action in question. Pease of mind is very comfortable.Brutialy honest.
Somtimes my down fall.
Ask my X.
Agree. Some scratches are considered to be market acceptable and others aren't. It's the borderline scratches that fall between the MA and not MA that cause problems with graders and frequently comes down to the personal opinions of the grader. Some graders have a higher tolerance for minor scratches than others which is why collectors need to look at the coins they are considering for purchase and decide for themselves.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
My test is whether I see the problem in a TrueView or other photo fit to my Retina MacBook screen.
I was just looking at some large photos of my 1800 Bust Dollar and the scratches I noticed in the photos bothered me.
If a coin is scratched and I can see it in a high resolution photo, it's definitely scratched. Whether I can live with it is another issue.
"If a coin is scratched but not obvious, is it still scratched?"
If I am alone in the forest and my wife isn't there, and I say something, an I still wrong?
BHNC #203
So much depends on location and degree of severity...one hairline vs. a cluster of hairline scratches...in the field or hidden in the devices....Also, the particular coin will qualify acceptability to a degree... very rare? well, collectors will be more forgiving.... common? it becomes junk. Cheers, RickO
Bottom line, it's best to at least be aware of a coin's flaws - regardless of how major or minor they are - and then make a decision based on your own personal preferences.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Under a microscope that coin surface would look like the Alps. Ha ha ha!
For me it's eye appeal (no enhancement) 'do the marks distract my enjoyment of this coin' and then my loupe to see finer details (don't recall the zoom but a nice Bausch and Lomb). If I like it, I like it, but I only ever buy straight graded coins. I expect old coins to have scratches, otherwise you would only be collecting the top end grade of every series (super high MS or high PF).
So the best answer from my perspective is 'if I don't see it, I don't care, but I also only buy straight graded (do details on the slab) coins'.
I have seen some horrible things on coins under magnification, that otherwise looked pretty decent to the naked eye. Maybe it's time graders all throw out their loupes and microscopes and grade without them.
"Naked Eye Grading Service"
Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.
Ah you're good kind fine people, for saying that, but I can see it. To me it's like a mountain, a vast bowl of pus.
Hairlins are not what we are discussing. Many of us have seen coins with large, obvious scratches that were considered market acceptable.
@opportunity said: "I have seen some horrible things on coins under magnification, that otherwise looked pretty decent to the naked eye. Maybe it's time graders all throw out their loupes and microscopes and grade without them."
You probably got your wish If you collect MS/PR-70 Silver Eagles.
BEST ANSWER NOMINATION: @MFeld said: "Bottom line, it's best to at least be aware of a coin's flaws - regardless of how major or minor they are - and then make a decision based on your own personal preferences"
I teach students to make sure they examine a coin good enough (including all that involves not posted here) so that they SEE EVERYTHING there is to see on a coin so they can then make a final AND FULLY INFORMED determination. I'll buy coins with "problems" but I know they are present. Many coins I consider to be "problem coins" are straight graded by folks who know much more about "Market Acceptability" than I do. I like to "joke" that I single handedly killed off two TPGS by being too strict.
Not exactly true. After X iterations, the gravitational attraction between their 2 bodies, not including hormones, will overcome the gravitational attraction "holding" them to the earth, and they will be attracted
to each other as a function of the altitude (earth's gravity decreases based on altitude) the thinning of the atmosphere will reduce impedance to motion and their relative heights (feet are "stuck" due to friction, but the upper bodies will pivot. Plus, if they are the same height, the most likely 1st point of contact due to gravity, will be the lips. 
Nature will not be denied.
Thank you @Insider2 , I find these kind of discussions helpful. Personally, I think a scratch is a scratch. You can rationalize whatever you'd like, but according to the laws of physics, it's there.
While I suspect there is no single answer, I'm interested in what factors graders consider when reaching a "market acceptable" conclusion. Series/date/mint? Type of scratch (staple vs. other)? Obvious or hidden? Depth/length? Other?
For example, is your pre-1926 Mercury example "market acceptable"?
I can't resist, so the picture below is of two PCGS graded coins. One was Genuine, one received a grade. It's this kind of apparent disparity that I wish I understood. You can tell from the tone of the previous sentence the quarter received a grade, the nickel did not. What @amwldcoin said ...
If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.
Tommy
@Insider2 .... A hairline is a scratch...you did not specify the degree of severity....
Cheers, RickO
a little pregnant is more like it but as one sees it
Sometimes when two bodies get veery close, the force is repulsive.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
It would bother me to some degree base on series/date/mint/cost ...... hairline is an almost scratch ?
…..or explosive.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
X
@JeffersonFrog said: "While I suspect there is no single answer, I'm interested in what factors graders consider when reaching a "market acceptable" conclusion. Series/date/mint? Type of scratch (staple vs. other)? Obvious or hidden? Depth/length? Other?"
While a mark on a coin can be described using absolute scientific measurements, those factors become subjective to all of us. With subjectivity, "errors" and disagreements do occur. What do "long" or "deep" conjure up in your mind?
Two things:
1. To your point, magnification matters. If you open up the pic in my post in a separate window to see the larger image, you will immediately see the marks on the quarter. This is "long" in my mind. Really long. Ridiculously long. (scientific terms ...)
Deep? Hard to say, it's a pic and not my coin.
2. Do you consider the Merc in your original post to be market acceptable (at least the portions of the reverse we can see)?
If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.
Tommy
I never return coins, but .....
I did return an MS67 coin yesterday because of a machine rub / fine scratches.
The seller's photos did not show the rub.
I do not blame the seller as it was graded across the street where they ignored or overlooked the rub.
I could not honestly resell the coin as an MS67 altho it is certified and thus the return.
Thanks, I just learned how to open an image in a new tab!
Question #2 I believe this coin went out as Unc "details" scratched rev.
Question #1 There are three of them on you quarter. Note they all go in the same direction. They can be PMD or the possibility exists that they may Not be scratches of various lengths.
This is a coin that was straight graded with a long scratch. EXCEPT, this scratch was on the planchet (planchet stria) and was not struck out. All it does is lower the desirability of the coin. Unfortunately I don't own it because it is an excellent coin for a grading test! Most beginners will think it is PMD!