MLB suspends Astros GM and manager for 1 year, $5 million fine, forfeit draft picks

TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,699 ✭✭✭

https://theathletic.com/1529253/2020/01/13/exclusive-mlb-hands-down-unprecedented-penalties-for-astros-after-sign-stealing-investigation/

As a Dodgers fan I'm a biased observer, of course. So take the following with a grain of salt.

This an absolute f'ing joke of a "punishment". How the hell do the Astros get to keep their rings and WS trophy? I'm not saying the Dodgers should get it, but the Astros should absolutely vacate their title. Further, Hinch/Luhnow should be banned for life, not just a year's suspension. This is organizational cheating and imo is worse than gambling. Make such an example that no team ever dares to try this again.

If I'm Alex Cora and the Red Sox, I'm feeling quite uncomfortable right about now.

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Comments

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 20,516 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well I can’t imagine they will do much more to the Sox correct? I haven’t followed it all that closely since I really don’t care one way or another but if the Sox did the same thing then the punishment should be consistent

  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,699 ✭✭✭

    Paul, the common thread here is Alex Cora. In finding Hinch and Luhnow culpable, I'm certain Cora is directly in the crosshairs. As bench coach, he absolutely knew what the trash can-banging was for. I dunno if I can be convinced that he goes to Boston and has sufficiently removed himself from the allegations there.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,616 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A $5 million dollar fine. It costs that much for a hot dog and a beer at a game.

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  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,699 ✭✭✭

    Astros fire Hinch and Luhnow.
    https://nesn.com/2020/01/astros-fire-manager-a-j-hinch-gm-jeff-luhnow-after-mlbs-cheating-punishments/

    Alex Cora better get used to being permanently retired from MLB in any capacity. That bamhammer's not done pounding nails.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 20,516 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TNP777 said:
    Paul, the common thread here is Alex Cora. In finding Hinch and Luhnow culpable, I'm certain Cora is directly in the crosshairs. As bench coach, he absolutely knew what the trash can-banging was for. I dunno if I can be convinced that he goes to Boston and has sufficiently removed himself from the allegations there.

    I can’t believe I forgot Cora was a Coach for the Astros. He definitely could be facing harsher penalties since he has been around it with both clubs.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 20,516 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020 12:21PM

    @doubledragon said:
    A $5 million dollar fine. It costs that much for a hot dog and a beer at a game.

    You might even be talking about the 12 ounce cup of stale keg beer variety too 🤨

  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,699 ✭✭✭

    Naw, for $5 million you should at least expect a mediocre IPA.

  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020 1:30PM

    @perkdog said:
    Well I can’t imagine they will do much more to the Sox correct? I haven’t followed it all that closely since I really don’t care one way or another but if the Sox did the same thing then the punishment should be consistent

    The big difference is that the Red Sox were already punished once (https://www.nj.com/yankees/2017/09/mlb_announces_punishment_for_red_sox_yankees_in_ap.html) for electronic sign stealing. So this would be their second offense versus the first for Houston. Expect Boston to get REALLY hammered.

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    C'mon. MLB baseball has been a farce for a quarter century. The schmucks banging some metal with a bat to signal the roided hitters was hilarious.

  • hammer1hammer1 Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭✭

    Astros= Black Sox

  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 3,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    all of this amateurish cheating makes me laugh

    -P Reed

  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭

    My recollection of the initial Athletic report was that Rosenthal initially reported that the sign stealing didn't occur during the 2017 playoff run. Today's news stated it did occur throughout the 2017 playoff run. So what do we have....

    2017 Astros Playoff run

    8-1 at home
    3-6 on the road

    5.7 runs per game at home
    3.0 runs per game on the road

    .273/.342/.519 (19 HRs) at home
    .208/.284/.347 (9 HRs) on the road

    oh

  • softparadesoftparade Posts: 8,687 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cora is gonna get perma banned

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  • softparadesoftparade Posts: 8,687 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @perkdog said:

    @TNP777 said:
    Paul, the common thread here is Alex Cora. In finding Hinch and Luhnow culpable, I'm certain Cora is directly in the crosshairs. As bench coach, he absolutely knew what the trash can-banging was for. I dunno if I can be convinced that he goes to Boston and has sufficiently removed himself from the allegations there.

    I can’t believe I forgot Cora was a Coach for the Astros. He definitely could be facing harsher penalties since he has been around it with both clubs.

    He was the architect of it. Bye bye Alex Cora

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  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 21,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I totally agree, The Astros should lose their rings and WS Trophy. The people in charge should be banned for life. Houston should be banned from playoffs for 10 years and the fine should be 1 Billion...…….5 Million is a joke!!!! This should hurt and hurt very bad!!!!

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  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,699 ✭✭✭

    BREAKING: Astros announce exciting new addition to their 2020 promotional bobblehead lineup to commemorate their exciting and historic 2017 World Series victory. #HoustonAsterisks


  • 3stars3stars Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭✭

    The $5 million penalty is the max allowed under Baseball's constitution, which sounds like it was written not long after the US constitution.

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  • SDSportsFanSDSportsFan Posts: 4,538 ✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020 4:57PM

    Here's the story on ESPN.com:

    https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28476780/astros-jeff-luhnow-aj-hinch-fired-sign-stealing

    Big takeaways I read:

    1. The league's investigation confirmed the Astros cheated by using a camera-based sign-stealing system during the regular season and playoffs in 2017, and part of the 2018 regular season.

    2. Luhnow and Hinch were suspended for the 2020 season, but team owner Larry Crane wants to go beyond that ruling. According to Crane, "Neither one of them started this, but neither one of them did anything about it". Even though neither Luhnow nor Hinch were involved with the scheme, and Hinch twice protested by trying to damage the monitor used in the scheme, Manfred nevertheless held the two responsible, citing a "failure by the leaders of the baseball operations department and the Field Manager to adequately manage the employees under their supervision, to establish a culture in which adherence to the rules is ingrained in the fabric of the organization, and to stop bad behavior as soon as it occurred."

    3. The Astros will also lose 1st and 2nd-round draft picks in 2020 and 2021, and they were fined a record $5 million.

    4. MLB said that if Luhnow or Hinch "engage in any future material violations" of MLB rules, they will be placed on the league's permanently ineligible list.

    5. Red Sox manager Alex Cora, who was implicated in the schemes, was not disciplined but is expected to receive a similarly harsh penalty upon completion of an investigation into use of a video replay room by the 2018 Red Sox. Cora was the Astros' bench coach during the 2017 season.

    6. No players will be disciplined. According to Rob Manfred, while the scheme to steal signs and relay them to batters by banging on a garbage can was player-driven, disciplining individual players is impractical given the large number of players involved, and the fact that many of those players now play for other Clubs.

    7. Lunhow accepted responsibility for the sign-stealing happening on his watch but maintained that he's "not a cheater." "I did not know rules were being broken...The sign-stealing initiative was not planned or directed by baseball management; the trash-can banging was driven and executed by players, and the video decoding of signs originated and was executed by lower-level employees working with the bench coach." This points the finger DIRECTLY AT ALEX CORA!

    8. The commissioner also pointed to a Sept. 15, 2017, memo regarding the Red Sox's illicit use of an Apple Watch that promised severe discipline for teams that run afoul of MLB's rules against using technology during games.

    9. The scheme itself, Manfred wrote, began in 2017 and evolved throughout the course of the season. After initially using video-replay personnel to decode the opposing catcher's signs via a center-field camera and relaying the information to the bench via phone or text message, Cora "arranged for a video room technician to install a monitor displaying the center field camera feed immediately outside of the Astros' dugout," according to the report. Players watched the camera live and, upon decoding the sign, hit the trash can with a bat -- and sometimes a Theragun -- to signal to the hitter which pitch was coming. Initially, they had tried clapping, whistling or yelling, Manfred wrote, but players determined the trash can was the best use of relaying the sign.

    10. The Red Sox better start looking for a new manager, as Alex Cora is absolute toast at this point!

    Steve

  • tommyrusty7tommyrusty7 Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    1. Good riddance as he sucks as a manager anyway!
  • EstilEstil Posts: 5,697 ✭✭✭

    Wow; I really feel bad for all the Houston Astros fans and the vast majority of the players who had no clue anything was going on. Every player dreams of a championship ring from the first time he/she picks up that sport's ball/puck whatever. And now those 2017 Astros players as well as their fans now have these big seeds of doubt in their heads wondering if the franchise's first ever championship* is even "real". :(

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  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2020 5:57PM

    @3stars said:
    The $5 million penalty is the max allowed under Baseball's constitution, which sounds like it was written not long after the US constitution.

    it could have been a $100 million dollar fine and it really wouldn't matter. That only affects ownership. The loss of 4 top draft picks is a much larger punishment considering A) the basic value of a draft pick (the potential of drafting a star quality player with 6 years of cost-control attached to him and B} this Astros team likely only has two years of a contention window left.

    So they lost Cole and a good deal of pitching depth this off-season. Springer, Gurriel and Brantley are free agents after 2020. Then basically half the team including Verlander, Greinke, Correa, McCullers (etc) are free agents after 2021. So considering all the prospects they've traded away recently for Greinke, and losing that draft pick capital that scrubs future trade chips (ie 2020 picks could have been trade capital for 2021) which is likely going to be their last year of contention with this group, affects the organization way more than Jim Crane's financial portfolio.

  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,699 ✭✭✭

    @Estil said:
    Wow; I really feel bad for all the Houston Astros fans and the vast majority of the players who had no clue anything was going on. Every player dreams of a championship ring from the first time he/she picks up that sport's ball/puck whatever. And now those 2017 Astros players as well as their fans now have these big seeds of doubt in their heads wondering if the franchise's first ever championship* is even "real". :(

    Please tell us you don’t actually believe this, Estil. There is zero chance a majority of a team that plays together for 162 games plus the postseason has no clue this was going on. There’s zero chance that even a single player didn’t know what was going on.

  • ernie11ernie11 Posts: 1,098 ✭✭✭

    Sheez, before this, I was rooting for them in the '19 World Series. Now I'm glad they lost.

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 21,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Estil said:
    Wow; I really feel bad for all the Houston Astros fans and the vast majority of the players who had no clue anything was going on. Every player dreams of a championship ring from the first time he/she picks up that sport's ball/puck whatever. And now those 2017 Astros players as well as their fans now have these big seeds of doubt in their heads wondering if the franchise's first ever championship* is even "real". :(

    It's NOT real......the Astros are nothing but a bunch of cheaters!

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  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭✭

    @TNP777 said:

    @Estil said:
    Wow; I really feel bad for all the Houston Astros fans and the vast majority of the players who had no clue anything was going on. Every player dreams of a championship ring from the first time he/she picks up that sport's ball/puck whatever. And now those 2017 Astros players as well as their fans now have these big seeds of doubt in their heads wondering if the franchise's first ever championship* is even "real". :(

    Please tell us you don’t actually believe this, Estil. There is zero chance a majority of a team that plays together for 162 games plus the postseason has no clue this was going on. There’s zero chance that even a single player didn’t know what was going on.

    Yeah, there's absolutely no chance any player on the team for more than about 5 minutes did NOT know what was going on. Every single player knew. Hinch knew. They all knew.

  • BrickBrick Posts: 4,036 ✭✭✭✭

    With so many players changing teams I would think word would spread rapidly.

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  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,699 ✭✭✭

    New allegations against the 2019 Astros, specifically Jose Altuve and Alex Bregman. They've been accused of using buzzers hidden under their jerseys. Seems sketchy, though. But never let an opportunity to slag the bad guy go to waste, amirite?

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,616 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Buzzers! If it's true, that is just pathetic! I can just see it now, the buzzer going off, bzz-zzzzzz!. This scandal is just too much! 😂😂

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  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭✭

    @TNP777 said:
    New allegations against the 2019 Astros, specifically Jose Altuve and Alex Bregman. They've been accused of using buzzers hidden under their jerseys. Seems sketchy, though. But never let an opportunity to slag the bad guy go to waste, amirite?

    There are photos that look very incriminating and Altuve was extremely insistent that his jersey not be ripped off after his homerun off Chapman.

    Not saying they did it but it definitely looks bad at the moment.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,616 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, and most fans aren't aware, but Jose Altuve also had a turkey sandwhich on rye hidden under his jersey.

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  • PatsGuy5000PatsGuy5000 Posts: 644 ✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:

    @TNP777 said:
    New allegations against the 2019 Astros, specifically Jose Altuve and Alex Bregman. They've been accused of using buzzers hidden under their jerseys. Seems sketchy, though. But never let an opportunity to slag the bad guy go to waste, amirite?

    There are photos that look very incriminating and Altuve was extremely insistent that his jersey not be ripped off after his homerun off Chapman.

    Not saying they did it but it definitely looks bad at the moment.

    Just saw the play with Altuve coming towards home plate - looks pretty obvious there was something underneath the shirt. Never have seen a reaction like that. Wouldn’t be surprised to see others are involved.

  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:
    Yes, and most fans aren't aware, but Jose Altuve also had a turkey sandwich on rye hidden under his jersey.

    You never know when that hunger is going to strike. Gotta be prepared.

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 21,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TNP777 said:
    New allegations against the 2019 Astros, specifically Jose Altuve and Alex Bregman. They've been accused of using buzzers hidden under their jerseys. Seems sketchy, though. But never let an opportunity to slag the bad guy go to waste, amirite?

    That explains a LOT about Runt Boy! Probably a .150 hitter if playing fairly.

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  • EstilEstil Posts: 5,697 ✭✭✭

    @TNP777 said:
    Paul, the common thread here is Alex Cora. In finding Hinch and Luhnow culpable, I'm certain Cora is directly in the crosshairs. As bench coach, he absolutely knew what the trash can-banging was for.

    Hee hee, so this could be the Astrorisk's new fight song? :D

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  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 3,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    serious question......has anyone anywhere mentioned Yu Darvish throughout all of this? admittedly i watch a fraction of the baseball i used to, but i most assuredly recall him getting shellacked in a WS start against Houston........at Houston. i also vividly remember thinking to myself, "man he is throwing pretty hard and his placement could be much worse........damn the Astros lineup is potent......it's as if they know what pitch is coming." i also vividly remember an Astros player coming out after the series saying that YD was tipping his pitches.

    sheer educated conjecture, but i now have serious doubts about the so-called tipping. that had to be "artful subterfuge-ing."

  • countdouglascountdouglas Posts: 899 ✭✭✭✭

    I've seen Darvish being discussed on various other platforms, some of it referencing how much money his poor World Series performance cost him over the life of his free agent deal.

    I guess "Yu Garbage" jerseys or memes or whatever were a thing for awhile after the Series, and saw where Darvish actually went on Twitter asking where those haters are, now. Admittingly, I haven't really followed his angle very closely, but how it affected him is being talked about.

  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭✭

    @galaxy27 said:
    serious question......has anyone anywhere mentioned Yu Darvish throughout all of this? admittedly i watch a fraction of the baseball i used to, but i most assuredly recall him getting shellacked in a WS start against Houston........at Houston. i also vividly remember thinking to myself, "man he is throwing pretty hard and his placement could be much worse........damn the Astros lineup is potent......it's as if they know what pitch is coming." i also vividly remember an Astros player coming out after the series saying that YD was tipping his pitches.

    sheer educated conjecture, but i now have serious doubts about the so-called tipping. that had to be "artful subterfuge-ing."

    His name has been prominently mentioned many times as one of the main victims in this whole thing. He lost a lot of money getting lit up like that.

  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭

    yeah Darvish and the pitchers have a reason to be bent, individually at least. But word is the Dodgers, as a whole, aren't in a position to be too angry about other teams using tech to steal signs.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,571 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They got screwed in 1951 didn't they?

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  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2020 7:41PM

    yup, but in more recent vintage, the Brewers accused the Dodgers of stealing sign sequences in the 2018 playoffs via video - people seem to have forgotten all about it pre-Astros/Red Sox revelations, or didn't believe this stuff was a thing.

    https://theathletic.com/599226/2018/10/18/something-looks-a-little-bit-off-in-a-postseason-of-paranoia-some-brewers-suspect-the-dodgers-are-stealing-signs

    it's behind a paywall so here's the heart of it...

    "There is concern amongst the Brewers that the Dodgers are using video to pick up their signs, multiple sources tell The Athletic," the report says. "One person inside the organization said that on videos of the games, a coach could be seen running from the hallway into the Dodgers’ dugout whenever a runner reached second base, possibly a sign that L.A. was relaying a pitchers’ sequences to the runner during those at-bats."

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,571 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like MLB is finally serious about stopping the cheating. They always seem to lag behind, don't they?

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  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020 6:18AM

    @JoeBanzai said:
    Looks like MLB is finally serious about stopping the cheating. They always seem to lag behind, don't they?

    no they aren't . What we are seeing here is a desperate coverup , just the tip of the iceberg .

    these managers being fired all within a day was negotiated as a way to stop the bleeding.

    Is it going to work though?

  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭

    true, if they had done something about the Red Sox/Fitbit watch thing from the beginning then maybe some of it would have stopped - although teams are always going to push the line. But if the Athletic report on the Astros and then the Red Sox hadn't come out, what would have MLB done? Most likely some minor investigation threatening discipline like Manfred's memo from 2017. The larger scale investigation only became a thing because of the Athletic report became public and Mike Fiers was willing to put his name to it so it's now just MLB PR spin.

    But there are tons of reports out there that at least 5-6 more teams, including the Dodgers, Brewers etc were using video or scoreboard light indicators to do at least somewhat similar things. Just not to the extent the Astros were.
    But tons of reports that teams had requested MLB look into this stuff by other teams to which MLB largely did nothing. If so many people within the game didn't hate the Astros and especially their front office, this may never have even come out. Just look at how quickly MLB shot down the "wearable tech" reports and circumstantial evidence from the Astros. You don't think MLB couldn't have squeezed the Astros' clubhouse employees into ratting on the players about that if they wanted to?

    Former Padres top prospect Cody Decker has a radio show where he has scouts and people in the know on and had been talking about this stuff before the Athletic article was even released. He said MLB never contacted him about any of it. And as anyone knows in baseball or any sports reporting, scouts always have the best info. Scouts and lower level front office employees are who the Rosenthals and Passans and their ilk get their "insider info".

  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭✭

    The was an article on ESPN in 2018 detailing the Astros sign-stealing exactly, bats banging on trash cans, everything. MLB did nothing.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,616 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020 11:44PM

    Houston fans need to be cautious when attending games next season, there may be an increase in the number of bees flying around in the stands.

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  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭
    edited January 28, 2020 6:03PM

    (A's manager) Bob Melvin confirmed that both the A's and Fiers himself contacted MLB about the Astros and they did nothing but offer a cursory "we'll look into it" (wasn't mentioned when exactly they or Fiers initially contacted them, but one assumes right after Fiers landed in Oakland). So if there was any doubt that MLB was attempting to shove this under the bed, they were.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,616 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I must say, I certainly enjoyed the interview with one of the Houston Astros trash cans.

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  • hammer1hammer1 Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭✭

    If I'm a pitcher, I guarantee I would headhunt correa every chance I got.

    1st time I get a warning, maybe even booted because the spineless Commish has issued a warning.

    2nd time I'd be suspended for a week.

    Get my teammates approval for the 3rd time and boom.

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