On June 23, Smith and his brother Hyrum rode to Carthage to stand trial for inciting a riot.[167] Once the Smiths were in custody, the charges were increased to treason.[168]
On June 27, 1844, an armed mob with blackened faces stormed Carthage Jail where Joseph and Hyrum were being held. Hyrum, who was trying to secure the door, was killed instantly with a shot to the face. Smith fired three shots from a pepper-box pistol that his friend, Cyrus Wheelock, had lent him, wounding three men,[169][170] before he sprang for the window.[171] He was shot multiple times before falling out the window, crying, "Oh Lord my God!" He died shortly after hitting the ground, but was shot several more times before the mob dispersed.[172]
So he was in custody from June 23 to June 27 and killed as he jumped out of a jail window. Where would he have spent this coin "about sixty minutes before he was killed" ?
Here's the pepper-box pistol Joseph Smith used to shoot 3 (possibly 4) people who were indicted for his murder, also from Wikipedia. I wonder if the coin here can be traced to Cyrus Wheelock or someone else from that event.
Most accounts seem to agree that at least three mob members were wounded by Smith's gunfire, but there is no other evidence that any of them died as a result. John Wills was shot in the arm, William Voras was shot in the shoulder, and William Gallaher was shot in the face.[36][37] Others claimed that a fourth unnamed man was also wounded.[37] Wills, Voras, Gallaher, and a Mr. Allen (possibly the fourth man) were all indicted for the murder of the Smiths. Wills, Voras, and Gallaher, perhaps conscious that their wounds could prove that they were involved in the mob, fled the county after being indicted and were never brought to trial.[38] Apart from Taylor's report of what he had heard, there is no evidence that Wills, Voras, Gallaher, or Allen died from their wounds.[39]
As I understand the story, Joseph Smith was in jail overnight and was killed during a "fake" jail break. So he wasn't spending any money an hour before that. Also the coin is worn quite a bit for being the same date as Smith's death (murder?).
"Ain't None of Them play like him (Bix Beiderbecke) Yet." Louis Armstrong
@Smudge said:
The coin doesn’t say Smith, and is not ‘Mormon Gold’. A US Mint coin and could be Joseph anybody.
Any Joseph known as "Prophet Joseph."
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Even if the provenance was absolutely irrefutable, it would be worth a small fraction of the asking price. “Upon further review,” I say this is just an owner trolling for a sucker.
On June 23, Smith and his brother Hyrum rode to Carthage to stand trial for inciting a riot.[167] Once the Smiths were in custody, the charges were increased to treason.[168]
On June 27, 1844, an armed mob with blackened faces stormed Carthage Jail where Joseph and Hyrum were being held. Hyrum, who was trying to secure the door, was killed instantly with a shot to the face. Smith fired three shots from a pepper-box pistol that his friend, Cyrus Wheelock, had lent him, wounding three men,[169][170] before he sprang for the window.[171] He was shot multiple times before falling out the window, crying, "Oh Lord my God!" He died shortly after hitting the ground, but was shot several more times before the mob dispersed.[172]
So he was in custody from June 23 to June 27 and killed as he jumped out of a jail window. Where would he have spent this coin "about sixty minutes before he was killed" ?
Doesn't say "spent." Says "Paid out."
The fact that he was able to be loaned a gun and jump out of a window suggests that this was not a standard jail situation.
Yes, I actually considered that but the word "lent" left me murky on that thought.
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@DCW said:
Lots of red flags here, most of them pointed out by the forum already.
Does anyone else find the wording "about sixty minutes before he was killed" a little peculiar?
I wish @Regulated would weigh in on this since he was mentioned in the article as examining the piece.
Oh, David!
I thought about that. Why not say "ONE HOUR?" It is almost as though the longer form were chosen to fill out the space.
However, it proves nothing. A contemporary engraver might have used the long form for that reason and why not?
I also wondered why did they spell out "sixty" and not just use numerals. I still think identifying the engraver will answer a lot of questions. It seems the engraving is distinct in it's font, excellent symmetry, and language use. We need to find another item with the same engraving.
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On June 23, Smith and his brother Hyrum rode to Carthage to stand trial for inciting a riot.[167] Once the Smiths were in custody, the charges were increased to treason.[168]
On June 27, 1844, an armed mob with blackened faces stormed Carthage Jail where Joseph and Hyrum were being held. Hyrum, who was trying to secure the door, was killed instantly with a shot to the face. Smith fired three shots from a pepper-box pistol that his friend, Cyrus Wheelock, had lent him, wounding three men,[169][170] before he sprang for the window.[171] He was shot multiple times before falling out the window, crying, "Oh Lord my God!" He died shortly after hitting the ground, but was shot several more times before the mob dispersed.[172]
So he was in custody from June 23 to June 27 and killed as he jumped out of a jail window. Where would he have spent this coin "about sixty minutes before he was killed" ?
Where did he get the gun? I'm not sure 1844 prison is the same as 2020
On June 23, Smith and his brother Hyrum rode to Carthage to stand trial for inciting a riot.[167] Once the Smiths were in custody, the charges were increased to treason.[168]
On June 27, 1844, an armed mob with blackened faces stormed Carthage Jail where Joseph and Hyrum were being held. Hyrum, who was trying to secure the door, was killed instantly with a shot to the face. Smith fired three shots from a pepper-box pistol that his friend, Cyrus Wheelock, had lent him, wounding three men,[169][170] before he sprang for the window.[171] He was shot multiple times before falling out the window, crying, "Oh Lord my God!" He died shortly after hitting the ground, but was shot several more times before the mob dispersed.[172]
So he was in custody from June 23 to June 27 and killed as he jumped out of a jail window. Where would he have spent this coin "about sixty minutes before he was killed" ?
Where did he get the gun? I'm not sure 1844 prison is the same as 2020
Is it possible he spent the coin to buy the revolver to facilitate his escape?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
On June 23, Smith and his brother Hyrum rode to Carthage to stand trial for inciting a riot.[167] Once the Smiths were in custody, the charges were increased to treason.[168]
On June 27, 1844, an armed mob with blackened faces stormed Carthage Jail where Joseph and Hyrum were being held. Hyrum, who was trying to secure the door, was killed instantly with a shot to the face. Smith fired three shots from a pepper-box pistol that his friend, Cyrus Wheelock, had lent him, wounding three men,[169][170] before he sprang for the window.[171] He was shot multiple times before falling out the window, crying, "Oh Lord my God!" He died shortly after hitting the ground, but was shot several more times before the mob dispersed.[172]
So he was in custody from June 23 to June 27 and killed as he jumped out of a jail window. Where would he have spent this coin "about sixty minutes before he was killed" ?
Where did he get the gun? I'm not sure 1844 prison is the same as 2020
Smith fired three shots from a pepper-box pistol that his friend, Cyrus Wheelock, had lent him
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On June 23, Smith and his brother Hyrum rode to Carthage to stand trial for inciting a riot.[167] Once the Smiths were in custody, the charges were increased to treason.[168]
On June 27, 1844, an armed mob with blackened faces stormed Carthage Jail where Joseph and Hyrum were being held. Hyrum, who was trying to secure the door, was killed instantly with a shot to the face. Smith fired three shots from a pepper-box pistol that his friend, Cyrus Wheelock, had lent him, wounding three men,[169][170] before he sprang for the window.[171] He was shot multiple times before falling out the window, crying, "Oh Lord my God!" He died shortly after hitting the ground, but was shot several more times before the mob dispersed.[172]
So he was in custody from June 23 to June 27 and killed as he jumped out of a jail window. Where would he have spent this coin "about sixty minutes before he was killed" ?
Where did he get the gun? I'm not sure 1844 prison is the same as 2020
Smith fired three shots from a pepper-box pistol that his friend, Cyrus Wheelock, had lent him
Lol. I KNOW. But if he had a gun in jail, i'm not sure why people think ok a $5 gold piece is so odd.
On June 23, Smith and his brother Hyrum rode to Carthage to stand trial for inciting a riot.[167] Once the Smiths were in custody, the charges were increased to treason.[168]
On June 27, 1844, an armed mob with blackened faces stormed Carthage Jail where Joseph and Hyrum were being held. Hyrum, who was trying to secure the door, was killed instantly with a shot to the face. Smith fired three shots from a pepper-box pistol that his friend, Cyrus Wheelock, had lent him, wounding three men,[169][170] before he sprang for the window.[171] He was shot multiple times before falling out the window, crying, "Oh Lord my God!" He died shortly after hitting the ground, but was shot several more times before the mob dispersed.[172]
So he was in custody from June 23 to June 27 and killed as he jumped out of a jail window. Where would he have spent this coin "about sixty minutes before he was killed" ?
Where did he get the gun? I'm not sure 1844 prison is the same as 2020
Smith fired three shots from a pepper-box pistol that his friend, Cyrus Wheelock, had lent him
Lol. I KNOW. But if he had a gun in jail, i'm not sure why people think ok a $5 gold piece is so odd.
Not that the piece in and of itself is odd, it's the statement on the coin that claims it was "paid out by". It infers that it was paid to someone for something, but the pistol was "lent" according to at least one account. Who knows. A lot of words we use today had different meanings and uses back then.
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I found the below story on the LDS website. I know nothing more about it than what is written here. If I assume this story is well-known in the Mormon community, I might hypothesize that the five dollar gold piece in the OP was fabricated to lure some devout follower into spending a large sum of money on this well-known relic. Or, perhaps the story and the $5 gold piece are authentic. I'm leaning toward the former at this time.
Five Dollars for Joseph Smith
By Spencer J. Palmer
“I’m beginning to wonder?” said one of the men on the high council in Missouri, “if Joseph Smith isn’t a fallen prophet.” Several of the other men, worried and frightened as mobs continued to terrorize the Saints who were trying to flee the state, murmured their agreement. “There he is in jail in Liberty, Clay County, while the Saints need him! Does that sound like a true prophet?”
But Solomon Hancock stemmed the tide of disaffection by saying, “Brethren, I’m a firm believer in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. Brother Joseph is not a fallen prophet! He will yet be exalted and become very high.” (History of the Church 3:225.)
That event, recorded in Joseph Smith’s History of the Church, was just one example of the great love Solomon Hancock had for the gospel—and for the Prophet Joseph Smith.
And perhaps because of Solomon’s loyalty to the Prophet, he was chosen to perform one of the last kindnesses given to Joseph Smith before his death.
Solomon’s wife, Phoebe Hancock, was pregnant when once they went to Quincy, Illinois, to buy food and clothes. Solomon had promised his wife five dollars to buy clothes and other articles for the new baby, which would soon be born, and their wagon was also loaded with butter and eggs to sell in town.
But just before they arrived in Quincy, Solomon informed his wife that he felt he could not give her the five dollars after all. She was surprised—and more than a little disappointed. After all, the money was for things their baby would need.
“I’m sorry,” he told her, “but I’ve had three strong warnings from the Spirit that I shouldn’t expect to use this money for the baby.
Frustrated, Phoebe showed her husband the list of items that she had planned to buy with the money, but Solomon only told her that she should use the money from the sale of the butter and eggs to buy the most important items. She reluctantly complied, and bought all that she could with the little money she had. But she was so disappointed that on the way home she sat down on the wagon board, pulled her bonnet down to hide her face, folded her arms, and turned her back on her husband.
They had traveled only a little way when they came to a crossroads, where they were surprised to meet the Prophet Joseph Smith. To their dismay, the men with the Prophet were taking him to prison in Carthage, Illinois.
Joseph called Solomon by name and said, “Have you got five dollars?”
“Yes, I have,” Solomon said.
“I knew it,” Joseph responded. “I told these men we would get something to eat before we got to the Carthage jail.”
Solomon gave the Prophet the five dollars, and his guards took him on his way. Phoebe wept, and asked forgiveness for wanting the money which the Prophet needed so much for food.
Soon the Prophet and his brother were killed by a mob that stormed the prison, and Solomon’s and Phoebe’s grief at the death of the Prophet could be assuaged, a little bit, by the knowledge that the Spirit had called on them to aid him during his last hours. (From Erastus and Francis Hancock, an Informal Family History.)
@SmEagle1795 said:
It's on eBay priced at $5M. I wonder how much they've insured it for? I think that'd be telling for how much they believe their own story.
And, if real, surely they'd offer it to the Mormon Church? They're sitting on $100 billion (See this article from the Washington Post).
This was my first thought. If this coin and story was genuine and verifiable, the Mormon Church would already be the owner of it.
All I gotta say is "The salamander fiasco". Ok it's an authentic gold coin. A fantastical creative little story by the jeweler who stamped it out. Peace Roy
Solomon gave the Prophet the five dollars, and his guards took him on his way. Phoebe wept, and asked forgiveness for wanting the money which the Prophet needed so much for food.
No wonder she wept. She was going to waste the money on frivolous purchases, like clothes for a newborn.
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Too bad the piece can't be tested for DNA, not Joseph Smith's, but rather Mark Hofman's! He is also the alleged creator of the infamous 1959 Wheat cent that occasionally pops up for auction.
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@Smudge said:
The coin doesn’t say Smith, and is not ‘Mormon Gold’. A US Mint coin and could be Joseph anybody.
The Mormons didn't produce any gold coins until 1849 or five years after Joseph Smith was killed so using Mormon gold in this case wouldn't have made any sense.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@Smudge said:
The coin doesn’t say Smith, and is not ‘Mormon Gold’. A US Mint coin and could be Joseph anybody.
The Mormons didn't produce any gold coins until 1849 or five years after Joseph Smith was killed so using Mormon gold in this case wouldn't have made any sense.
@Smudge said:
The coin doesn’t say Smith, and is not ‘Mormon Gold’. A US Mint coin and could be Joseph anybody.
The Mormons didn't produce any gold coins until 1849 or five years after Joseph Smith was killed so using Mormon gold in this case wouldn't have made any sense.
The listing says Mormon gold. Just sayin.
Maybe they meant it was owned by a Mormon.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
As I said earlier, the presence of an 1844-dated coin in Illinois this deep into the year is not unreasonable. It easily could have been a coin in the pocket of the church member who gave it to Joseph.
That said, the more I think about the piece the more suspicious I become of the date. Yes a $5 coin taken at random in May of 1844 could easily have been dated 1844, but it just as easily have been dated anywhere from 1834 to 1843 (assuming that most of the old tenor gold struck up to 1834 was long gone). Add up the total coinage of the Classic Head coins and the Liberty Head coinage through May of 1844 and what percentage of that was dated 1844? (Don't have enough coffee in me yet to do the math.)
Those are the odds of this random coin being an 1844. What a remarkable coincidence that it just happened to bear the fateful date of Joseph's assassination! ! Makes the coin more interesting, and thus more valuable, don't you think?
As before, it is possible. The probability is low.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Realone said:
Looks like the same professional engraving on Julian's 1921 Morgan Dollar.
I questioned the san-serif lettering style being contemporary to 1844, but typography is outside my area of expertise.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
One can actually visit the Carthage Jail in. Carthage Illinois today and listen to a presentation about the events that led up to the death. Prior to the assassination Joseph and his associates had been moved into the jailer’s own upper floor bedroom. The jail as such with bars is on a lower floor.
The above described gun is on display in Salt Lake City in the historical museum across from Temple Square along with the details relating to it.
As to the coin subject of this thread it is possible that it was held onto by someone at the time and passed along to later generations when the inscription was then added based upon family lore. To be truly collectible one would at least expect to be provided a contemporary journal account or naming of names with even hearsay reportings from the distant past.
@1northcoin said:
One can actually visit the Carthage Jail in. Carthage Illinois today and listen to a presentation about the events that led up to the death. Prior to the assassination Joseph and his associates had been moved into the jailer’s own upper floor bedroom. The jail as such with bars is on a lower floor.
The above described gun is on display in Salt Lake City in the historical museum across from Temple Square along with the details relating to it.
As to the coin subject of this thread it is possible that it was held onto by someone at the time and passed along to later generations when the inscription was then added based upon family lore. To be truly collectible one would at least expect to be provided a contemporary journal account or naming of names with even hearsay reportings from the distant past.
If the coin was real, it would be sitting next to the gun, I suspect.
@1northcoin said:
One can actually visit the Carthage Jail in. Carthage Illinois today and listen to a presentation about the events that led up to the death. Prior to the assassination Joseph and his associates had been moved into the jailer’s own upper floor bedroom. The jail as such with bars is on a lower floor.
The above described gun is on display in Salt Lake City in the historical museum across from Temple Square along with the details relating to it.
As to the coin subject of this thread it is possible that it was held onto by someone at the time and passed along to later generations when the inscription was then added based upon family lore. To be truly collectible one would at least expect to be provided a contemporary journal account or naming of names with even hearsay reportings from the distant past.
If the coin was real, it would be sitting next to the gun, I suspect.
If, and this is a highly-qualified if, the coin was "paid out" to buy food before the assassination, then the coin would have belonged to a different person than the owner of the gun, and they could have done with it whatever they wanted to do. There is no reason why it would have followed the gun.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@1northcoin said:
One can actually visit the Carthage Jail in. Carthage Illinois today and listen to a presentation about the events that led up to the death. Prior to the assassination Joseph and his associates had been moved into the jailer’s own upper floor bedroom. The jail as such with bars is on a lower floor.
The above described gun is on display in Salt Lake City in the historical museum across from Temple Square along with the details relating to it.
As to the coin subject of this thread it is possible that it was held onto by someone at the time and passed along to later generations when the inscription was then added based upon family lore. To be truly collectible one would at least expect to be provided a contemporary journal account or naming of names with even hearsay reportings from the distant past.
If the coin was real, it would be sitting next to the gun, I suspect.
If, and this is a highly-qualified if, the coin was "paid out" to buy food before the assassination, then the coin would have belonged to a different person than the owner of the gun, and they could have done with it whatever they wanted to do. There is no reason why it would have followed the gun.
If the Church of LDS even thought that was real, the eBay seller would already have his $5 million.
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@1northcoin said:
One can actually visit the Carthage Jail in. Carthage Illinois today and listen to a presentation about the events that led up to the death. Prior to the assassination Joseph and his associates had been moved into the jailer’s own upper floor bedroom. The jail as such with bars is on a lower floor.
The above described gun is on display in Salt Lake City in the historical museum across from Temple Square along with the details relating to it.
As to the coin subject of this thread it is possible that it was held onto by someone at the time and passed along to later generations when the inscription was then added based upon family lore. To be truly collectible one would at least expect to be provided a contemporary journal account or naming of names with even hearsay reportings from the distant past.
Agree the case would be much stronger if there was contemporary reference to it.
@1northcoin said:
One can actually visit the Carthage Jail in. Carthage Illinois today and listen to a presentation about the events that led up to the death. Prior to the assassination Joseph and his associates had been moved into the jailer’s own upper floor bedroom. The jail as such with bars is on a lower floor.
The above described gun is on display in Salt Lake City in the historical museum across from Temple Square along with the details relating to it.
As to the coin subject of this thread it is possible that it was held onto by someone at the time and passed along to later generations when the inscription was then added based upon family lore. To be truly collectible one would at least expect to be provided a contemporary journal account or naming of names with even hearsay reportings from the distant past.
Agree the case would be much stronger if there was contemporary reference to it.
do we know there isn't? I'm not sure we've done any research beyond wikipedia.
@1northcoin said:
One can actually visit the Carthage Jail in. Carthage Illinois today and listen to a presentation about the events that led up to the death. Prior to the assassination Joseph and his associates had been moved into the jailer’s own upper floor bedroom. The jail as such with bars is on a lower floor.
The above described gun is on display in Salt Lake City in the historical museum across from Temple Square along with the details relating to it.
As to the coin subject of this thread it is possible that it was held onto by someone at the time and passed along to later generations when the inscription was then added based upon family lore. To be truly collectible one would at least expect to be provided a contemporary journal account or naming of names with even hearsay reportings from the distant past.
Agree the case would be much stronger if there was contemporary reference to it.
do we know there isn't? I'm not sure we've done any research beyond wikipedia.
According to the seller, Kagin's had it for about a year and they had a historian research it. If they found anything, I'm guessing it would have been mentioned by the seller.
While I agree it is rich coming from the guy who calls his drilled half Disme “chopped”
Test drills are chops knucklehead.
Read Rose.
Sure when done by hand for metal merchants in the orient. But failed amateur holes (where the mechanics drill bit skipped across the coin when the twist ripped it out of what was holding it) for a necklaces isn’t . Not to mention done most likely in America as there is no evidence those ever circulated over there.
But that is the privilege of owning it, you have any little story you like. Claim it was hit by a meteor for all I care.
Knock off the kvetching irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Hypothetically, would the first coin ever spent by Joseph Smith be more valuable than this coin?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@PerryHall said:
Hypothetically, would the first coin ever spent by Joseph Smith be more valuable than this coin?
I’m not sure you could find the first coin ever spent as he wouldn’t have been famous for many years. Perhaps the first coin spent after finding the golden plates?
I talked to David today and let him know they were using his name trying to sell the coin. He told me he indeed saw the coin and told them there was no was way to establish provenance. He also told them the history and facts would not support it either.
@Zoins said:
Just ran across this coin which is very interesting. It's a 1844 half eagle that's engraved and says it's the last coin Joseph Smith spent, about an hour before he was killed. Anyone heard of or know about this?
Apparently Don Kagin, David Hall, and @Regulated have all seen this coin. Given that David Hall said this could be slabbed, I'm surprised it hasn't been, especially when they write:
I heard about a Billy the Kid picture being sold for $5 at a garage sale and the buyer had it certified as the second known Billy the Kid picture and it sold for $ 5 million.
1844 $5 HALF EAGLE LAST MONEY SPENT BY PROPHET JOSEPH MORMON GOLD COIN
Up for sale is this amazing 1844 $5 Gold Half Eagle
With the phrase on obverse side of the coin to the effect that it was the last money paid out by the prophet Joseph about sixty minutes before he was killed
An amazing find !
The Prophet Joseph Smith Jr. was an american religious leader and founder of Mormonism which still continues to present.
This coin was looked at by Kagin's renowned ultra rare coin experts, it is an authentic 1844 $5 gold half eagle.
We have this coin for quite a few years and finally decided to take it to the coin show a couple of years ago. We took it to the Expo Coin Show in Long Beach, California a couple of years ago, and showed it to Chris Napolitano Numismatics at his Booth. Chris said he has never seen anything like it and referred us to Dave Hall at the show. Dave is the founder of PCGS and was employed by PCGS at the time.
Dave looked at it and said he had never seen anything like it. He said PCGS can grade it as far as coin grading goes, but we should go to the Kagin’s booth as they would be the ones to know more about this coin.
We took the coin to the Kagin's booth at the Expo and Dave McCarthy of Kagin’s looked at it. Mr. McCarthy was very excited to see the coin and took it on consignment immediately.
He said he had Mormon collectors that could be very excited about this coin.
Kagin's had the coin for about one year and offered to buy it themselves and also offered to sell it to their collectors a number of times but we did not want to sell.
Then Kagin's had a Mormon Memorabilia Auction and they were kind enough to offer to put the coin in that auction and told us Kagin’s themselves will also be bidding on the coin, but we did not want to sell it yet.
According to Mr. McCarthy, Kagin's consulted a historian about the coin. At first the historian was not available and offers came in for us to sell the coin to their collectors. Later, according to Kagin’s, the historian said it is an 1844 coin which is the year that the Prophet Joseph died. According to Mr. McCarthy, the historian said the time frame for the coin to make it from the mint to the location of Prophet Joseph was feasible (which helps with the provenance).
We think the coin has the possibility of being very valuable and hence did not want to sell it to Kagin’s collectors, even though they offered much more than the coin value.
Having said that, we make no representation about the coin whatsoever or the writings on it.
Whoever buys this coin can take it to your own historian and do their own research.
I heard about a Billy the Kid picture being sold for $5 at a garage sale and the buyer had it certified as the second known Billy the Kid picture and it sold for $ 5 million.
I also heard about a DaVinci painting that sold for over $400 million last year setting the highest record for any art sale, which was purchased for very little.
In both cases, the buyer did additional work on their own to authenticate the item and was able to realize tremendous profits as a result.
Buying this coin is taking a chance. At worst it is a great conversation piece for the right collector who is willing to pay a large premium to own it, and at best it is an invaluable piece of history.
Comments
Here's the pepper-box pistol Joseph Smith used to shoot 3 (possibly 4) people who were indicted for his murder, also from Wikipedia. I wonder if the coin here can be traced to Cyrus Wheelock or someone else from that event.
As I understand the story, Joseph Smith was in jail overnight and was killed during a "fake" jail break. So he wasn't spending any money an hour before that. Also the coin is worn quite a bit for being the same date as Smith's death (murder?).
Louis Armstrong
Any Joseph known as "Prophet Joseph."
Even if the provenance was absolutely irrefutable, it would be worth a small fraction of the asking price. “Upon further review,” I say this is just an owner trolling for a sucker.
Yes, I actually considered that but the word "lent" left me murky on that thought.
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I also wondered why did they spell out "sixty" and not just use numerals. I still think identifying the engraver will answer a lot of questions. It seems the engraving is distinct in it's font, excellent symmetry, and language use. We need to find another item with the same engraving.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Where did he get the gun? I'm not sure 1844 prison is the same as 2020
Is it possible he spent the coin to buy the revolver to facilitate his escape?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Smith fired three shots from a pepper-box pistol that his friend, Cyrus Wheelock, had lent him
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Lol. I KNOW. But if he had a gun in jail, i'm not sure why people think ok a $5 gold piece is so odd.
While I agree it is rich coming from the guy who calls his drilled half Disme “chopped”
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Not that the piece in and of itself is odd, it's the statement on the coin that claims it was "paid out by". It infers that it was paid to someone for something, but the pistol was "lent" according to at least one account. Who knows. A lot of words we use today had different meanings and uses back then.
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Let that be a lesson to carry more cash.
Doesn't add any extra value to me.
I found the below story on the LDS website. I know nothing more about it than what is written here. If I assume this story is well-known in the Mormon community, I might hypothesize that the five dollar gold piece in the OP was fabricated to lure some devout follower into spending a large sum of money on this well-known relic. Or, perhaps the story and the $5 gold piece are authentic. I'm leaning toward the former at this time.
Five Dollars for Joseph Smith
By Spencer J. Palmer
“I’m beginning to wonder?” said one of the men on the high council in Missouri, “if Joseph Smith isn’t a fallen prophet.” Several of the other men, worried and frightened as mobs continued to terrorize the Saints who were trying to flee the state, murmured their agreement. “There he is in jail in Liberty, Clay County, while the Saints need him! Does that sound like a true prophet?”
But Solomon Hancock stemmed the tide of disaffection by saying, “Brethren, I’m a firm believer in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. Brother Joseph is not a fallen prophet! He will yet be exalted and become very high.” (History of the Church 3:225.)
That event, recorded in Joseph Smith’s History of the Church, was just one example of the great love Solomon Hancock had for the gospel—and for the Prophet Joseph Smith.
And perhaps because of Solomon’s loyalty to the Prophet, he was chosen to perform one of the last kindnesses given to Joseph Smith before his death.
Solomon’s wife, Phoebe Hancock, was pregnant when once they went to Quincy, Illinois, to buy food and clothes. Solomon had promised his wife five dollars to buy clothes and other articles for the new baby, which would soon be born, and their wagon was also loaded with butter and eggs to sell in town.
But just before they arrived in Quincy, Solomon informed his wife that he felt he could not give her the five dollars after all. She was surprised—and more than a little disappointed. After all, the money was for things their baby would need.
“I’m sorry,” he told her, “but I’ve had three strong warnings from the Spirit that I shouldn’t expect to use this money for the baby.
Frustrated, Phoebe showed her husband the list of items that she had planned to buy with the money, but Solomon only told her that she should use the money from the sale of the butter and eggs to buy the most important items. She reluctantly complied, and bought all that she could with the little money she had. But she was so disappointed that on the way home she sat down on the wagon board, pulled her bonnet down to hide her face, folded her arms, and turned her back on her husband.
They had traveled only a little way when they came to a crossroads, where they were surprised to meet the Prophet Joseph Smith. To their dismay, the men with the Prophet were taking him to prison in Carthage, Illinois.
Joseph called Solomon by name and said, “Have you got five dollars?”
“Yes, I have,” Solomon said.
“I knew it,” Joseph responded. “I told these men we would get something to eat before we got to the Carthage jail.”
Solomon gave the Prophet the five dollars, and his guards took him on his way. Phoebe wept, and asked forgiveness for wanting the money which the Prophet needed so much for food.
Soon the Prophet and his brother were killed by a mob that stormed the prison, and Solomon’s and Phoebe’s grief at the death of the Prophet could be assuaged, a little bit, by the knowledge that the Spirit had called on them to aid him during his last hours. (From Erastus and Francis Hancock, an Informal Family History.)
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
This was my first thought. If this coin and story was genuine and verifiable, the Mormon Church would already be the owner of it.
All I gotta say is "The salamander fiasco". Ok it's an authentic gold coin. A fantastical creative little story by the jeweler who stamped it out. Peace Roy
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Danger,Danger Will Robinson!
No wonder she wept. She was going to waste the money on frivolous purchases, like clothes for a newborn.
I've heard bigger lies, but just can't remember when. What a joke!
Even if legit, I would pay melt.
The coin doesn’t say Smith, and is not ‘Mormon Gold’. A US Mint coin and could be Joseph anybody.
The evidence is lacking that the coin was handled by Joseph Smith, the Mormon prophet. Anyone can engrave whatever on a coin.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Too bad the piece can't be tested for DNA, not Joseph Smith's, but rather Mark Hofman's! He is also the alleged creator of the infamous 1959 Wheat cent that occasionally pops up for auction.
Yes, LOTS of prophets named Joseph killed in 1844.
The Mormons didn't produce any gold coins until 1849 or five years after Joseph Smith was killed so using Mormon gold in this case wouldn't have made any sense.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The listing says Mormon gold. Just sayin.
Maybe they meant it was owned by a Mormon.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
As I said earlier, the presence of an 1844-dated coin in Illinois this deep into the year is not unreasonable. It easily could have been a coin in the pocket of the church member who gave it to Joseph.
That said, the more I think about the piece the more suspicious I become of the date. Yes a $5 coin taken at random in May of 1844 could easily have been dated 1844, but it just as easily have been dated anywhere from 1834 to 1843 (assuming that most of the old tenor gold struck up to 1834 was long gone). Add up the total coinage of the Classic Head coins and the Liberty Head coinage through May of 1844 and what percentage of that was dated 1844? (Don't have enough coffee in me yet to do the math.)
Those are the odds of this random coin being an 1844. What a remarkable coincidence that it just happened to bear the fateful date of Joseph's assassination! ! Makes the coin more interesting, and thus more valuable, don't you think?
As before, it is possible. The probability is low.
TD
I questioned the san-serif lettering style being contemporary to 1844, but typography is outside my area of expertise.
It would take a helluva lot more provenance than an engraving on a coin for me to swallow THAT line.
Cheers
Bob
One can actually visit the Carthage Jail in. Carthage Illinois today and listen to a presentation about the events that led up to the death. Prior to the assassination Joseph and his associates had been moved into the jailer’s own upper floor bedroom. The jail as such with bars is on a lower floor.
The above described gun is on display in Salt Lake City in the historical museum across from Temple Square along with the details relating to it.
As to the coin subject of this thread it is possible that it was held onto by someone at the time and passed along to later generations when the inscription was then added based upon family lore. To be truly collectible one would at least expect to be provided a contemporary journal account or naming of names with even hearsay reportings from the distant past.
PM if you want to start a limited partnership.
If the coin was real, it would be sitting next to the gun, I suspect.
If, and this is a highly-qualified if, the coin was "paid out" to buy food before the assassination, then the coin would have belonged to a different person than the owner of the gun, and they could have done with it whatever they wanted to do. There is no reason why it would have followed the gun.
If the Church of LDS even thought that was real, the eBay seller would already have his $5 million.
5mil is decimal dust for LDS
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Agree the case would be much stronger if there was contemporary reference to it.
do we know there isn't? I'm not sure we've done any research beyond wikipedia.
According to the seller, Kagin's had it for about a year and they had a historian research it. If they found anything, I'm guessing it would have been mentioned by the seller.
If nothing else, I learned a heck of a lot about the Mormon religion.
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Sure when done by hand for metal merchants in the orient. But failed amateur holes (where the mechanics drill bit skipped across the coin when the twist ripped it out of what was holding it) for a necklaces isn’t . Not to mention done most likely in America as there is no evidence those ever circulated over there.
But that is the privilege of owning it, you have any little story you like. Claim it was hit by a meteor for all I care.
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Knock off the kvetching irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Hypothetically, would the first coin ever spent by Joseph Smith be more valuable than this coin?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I’m not sure you could find the first coin ever spent as he wouldn’t have been famous for many years. Perhaps the first coin spent after finding the golden plates?
I talked to David today and let him know they were using his name trying to sell the coin. He told me he indeed saw the coin and told them there was no was way to establish provenance. He also told them the history and facts would not support it either.