Is there a difference between a countermark and a counterstamp?
Insider2
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These two terms are used to describe various stamping done to already struck coins.
Is there a difference between a countermark and a counterstamp?
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There are those who will argue that there is a difference involving who did the stamping.
However, I prefer "counterstamp".
Some things I have noticed: in Europe they use "countermark" much more often. Also, that term is also used far more often to refer to marks put on ancient coins.
I have been known to counterstamp a coin or two (-hundred thousand) and I am a counterstamper .
I'll bite, and potentially face the wrath of the Insider....
I voted for number 2, and I'm purely guessing, but I think one designates an official mark issued by a government,
making the coins of another country, legal tender in their country, like Spanish 8Rs stamped with British royalty symbols.
(We also have overprints on currency, like WWII notes with Hawaii and North Africa for use in those places.)
The other I assume can be done by anyone, like all the counterstamps done to large cents as advertising, etc.
I tend to use them interchangeably, but would a counterstamp refer to a name or word, while a countermark would refer to a single character such as bankers marks on ancients or chop marks?
The most significant difference in the terms is in geographical usage. Counterstamp is used primarily in the U.S. and Canada for U.S. & many Canadian related items (stamp or host). Countermark is the predominate term used with world marks and coins especially among the non-U.S. populace.
Some try to use countermark only with marks of official government or quasi-government status but that doesn't fly with general usage in the real world. Others try to differentiate between names (counterstamp) and symbols/joined initials (countermarks, as on Caribbean bits and pieces) but again that doesn't correspond with general usage. A numismatic dictionary or Breenian figure may try to anoint one or the other with specific status but that dog don't hunt in the current vast fields of exonumia interest.
Counterstamp is applied bY a die and machine, while countermark is a mark put on the coin by the person with a hammer and punch,
Counterstamp = official
Countermark = private
But I'm here to learn
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Bad transactions with : nobody to date
I really do not care....It is a mark (such as a chop mark - how is that for muddying the water
) applied after the minting process by someone or some entity for reason(s) known to them and in many cases, others. Cheers, RickO
Me Too!!!!!
After all it's pmd. Albeit it's pmd with mystery and panache. Peace Roy
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@Insider2....Sadly, you are correct....and I agree, though in respect to much larger (IMO) issues....Cheers, RickO
@Insider2 has me researching now
FROM the Newman Numismatic Portal
COUNTERMARK VS COUNTERSTAMP
Jørgen Sømod continues on the subject of countermark and
counterstamp: "Both terms should be used on official pieces,
but to a goldsmith's or engraver's test, I would use the term
counterstamp."
Ralf W. Bopple of Stuttgart, Germany writes: "I am on the
E-Sylum mailing list for almost a year now, and will finally be
able to contribute to your fine journal!
As a coin collector with much interest in counterstamped coins,
I have come in touch with the 'counterstamp vs. countermark'
discussion quite often. Yes, it is true that the words are mostly
used interchangeably by cataloguers. I go along with Alan
Luedeking's definition, that is, defining a counterstamp as having
an 'official' background. This is also backed by Burzio's
'Diccionario de la Moneda Hispanoamericana', in which a
clear distinction is made between a 'resello' (indeed the Spanish
equivalent to counterstamp) applied by a governmental entity and
containing some official coat of arms or state symbol, and a
'contramarca', which is more generally defined as any kind of
number, symbol, letter, or monogram, applied by individuals or
political factions for various reasons.
Given the colorful history behind most counterstamps and
countermarks, one can easily imagine that it is not always possible
to make a clear distinction there.
The definite work on counterstamps in German (Ehrend/Schreier:
Gegenstempel auf Muenzen, Speyer, 1975) does not differentiate
between counterstamps and countermarks. In German, the word is
'Gegenstempel' (old-fashioned: Kontermarke), where 'Stempel'
signifies both 'stamp' and 'die'. Ehrend/Schreier explicitly exclude
'Punzungen' (punch marks) from the vast field of counterstamps,
that is, they don't count test or validation marks, like the Chinese
chops, or assay marks like the ones found on Japanese obans or
Brasilean 'Sampex' bars.
Thus, the countermark vs. counterstamp discussion does not exist
in Germany, simply because there is only one term! I hope this
has been helpful, and I am looking forward to the replies by other
readers."
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Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Lets do more research with sources!
From the Macmillian Encyclopedic Dictionary of Numismatics (1982):
Counterstamp A punch mark or marks, officially applied to a coin or a segment of a coin to change its value and/or indicate its acceptance as legal tender in a place beyond where it was issued." They can be traced to ancient times. A synonym for "counterstamp" is "countermark. Which would indicate that the marks are the same thing. **So, what are UNOFFICIAL" stamps on coins called if not "countermarks."
The Brunk reference seems to call everything a countermark and divides them up by "Official Authority" vs merchant and privatly countermarked coins.
Anyone have a 17th Century usage for the two terms in case they became synonymous in later years?
Riddell (1845) calls the "official" marks just "Stamps" or "Restamped."
Looks like my question is more complicated than I thought.
I use them interchangeably, with probably a preference for counter stamp. You are more likely to see “c/s” than you are “c/m.”
In case anyone wants to play "word games"....aka, etymology....
What is the origin of the "counter" part of either term?
Is it:
Both make a certain amount of sense....but I don't know the answer.
The answer, if it exists, doesn't matter. Definitions of words change over time. Nearly everyone uses them synonymously.
They are synonymous.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
I vote for neither origin. I believe "Counter" means "against".
The German word is "Gegenstempel", or "against stamp".
The mark is stamped against (into) the coin's surface.
I feel the same way. I once asked my dentist "What's the difference between a crown and a cap?" and he responded "What's the difference between an automobile and a car?"
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This is why you need search them all when looking online. Counter mark. Countermark. Counter stamp counterstamp Etc. also search misspellings.
Thx. Now I will have more competition.
im in the whatever camp. i use the both of them either way
THANKS! I think I may change my opinion due to the info posted here.
Despite all the hate generated towards modifiers, the simple use of the adjective "official" goes a long way in cleaning up bad and dead end definitions. As Mark Twain said "“When you catch an adjective, kill it. No, I don't mean utterly, but kill most of them--then the rest will be valuable. They weaken when they are close together.