@TurtleCat said:
Am I crazy or does it seem like there are a lot of these types of posts asking for advice and the people never post again? Are they scared off by the responses or just hoping for treasure and disappointed and give up?
It’s the former. I read some of these threads and they’re cringeworthy. A general, old man grumpiness underlies a good chunk of the discussion and around every corner lurks someone ready to snipe at someone else should they misspeak or not be 100% clear about the subtle variations produced by some half drunk mint worker 70 years ago. Start a new account and try calling toning environmental damage or vice versa. Somebody will be ready to scold you with chapter and verse from the Red Book.
Numismatics isn’t dying. It’s being murdered.
Is there no newcomer category with tools, FAQs, etc? Some of you guys are ridiculously helpful but it might be good to keep the heathens away from those still learning.
Back in the old days, you got told off to your face at the local coin club for big dumb.
A really friendly coin club guy would take you aside for a 'word to the wise' if you were lucky.
I don't come to this forum expecting to see trivial pocket change. I typically expect to see nice collector coins that are obviously worthy of the attention of the TPGS, and maybe a little bit of borderline stuff.
People who clearly state that there is practically nothing in Coin roll hunting are trying to save the Noobs a lot of grief. That is the crux of the matter. 'White lies' are still untruths.
@BillDugan1959 said:
Back in the old days, you got told off to your face at the local coin club for big dumb.
A really friendly coin club guy would take you aside for a 'word to the wise' if you were lucky.
I don't come to this forum expecting to see trivial pocket change. I typically expect to see nice collector coins that are obviously worthy of the attention of the TPGS, and maybe a little bit of borderline stuff.
People who clearly state that there is practically nothing in Coin roll hunting are trying to save the Noobs a lot of grief. That is the crux of the matter. 'White lies' are still untruths.
This is exactly the old man grumpiness I wrote about. You conjured up “white lies” and implicitly the liar to go with it. No one asked anyone to shine anyone’s a** or gloss over the truth.
And this isn’t some generational difference or softness on anyone’s part. When you have a question and need information, everyone one today and for millennia back in time would prefer not to get the answer from someone acting like a prck. To try to color your unhelpful/grumpy comments as a veiled blessing and mine into calls for “white lies” only illuminates the point.
I agree with @AUandAG Going to a coin show and a local coin shop shall give you a great chance to see high grade coins in assorted slabs and their values. Knowledge is power and spend your money wisely. Peace Roy
@Hemispherical said:
Posting in the Q&A forum is generally a good idea for questioning posts (and new user questions.)
Several members are active there answering questions or referring people in general.
Just a general thought.
We've all had this discussion before. It is possible to just not post.
Some people are helpful. No problem. Some people say nothing. No problem. But some people do respond in sarcastic or insulting fashion. That's kind of a problem.
@Hemispherical said:
Posting in the Q&A forum is generally a good idea for questioning posts (and new user questions.)
Several members are active there answering questions or referring people in general.
Just a general thought.
We've all had this discussion before. It is possible to just not post.
Some people are helpful. No problem. Some people say nothing. No problem. But some people do respond in sarcastic or insulting fashion. That's kind of a problem.
True. Still might notify that venue to the new members because not many know how to get around or even know there is a Q&A forum. Especially if they are drawn here via a web search engine.
@Hemispherical said:
Posting in the Q&A forum is generally a good idea for questioning posts (and new user questions.)
Several members are active there answering questions or referring people in general.
Just a general thought.
We've all had this discussion before. It is possible to just not post.
Some people are helpful. No problem. Some people say nothing. No problem. But some people do respond in sarcastic or insulting fashion. That's kind of a problem.
True. Still might notify that venue to the new members because not many know how to get around or even know there is a Q&A forum. Especially if they are drawn here via a web search engine.
I agree. I think some newbies don't know that there is a BST and a Q&A and that there are guidelines for what goes where. But, again, helpfully suggesting they post in the appropriate place - which many members do - is preferable to some of the sarcasm.
Wasn't trying to cause an argument or anything of that nature I am brand new to this thought I saw errors on some of the coins and thought the others might have been key dates so I asked if I should have them graded. Thanks again for everyone's help and advice I will read the mentioned books and attend some coin shows just thought I'd ask sorry if anyone took offense. But I believe the only dumb question is one that's not asked
@Kevin118 said:
thought I saw errors on some of the coins and thought the others might have been key dates so I asked if I should have them graded.
You'd likely get more useful replies if you describe what it is about each coin that makes you consider having it graded. If you just post pictures, people won't know what your question is.
@Kevin118 said:
Wasn't trying to cause an argument or anything of that nature I am brand new to this thought I saw errors on some of the coins and thought the others might have been key dates so I asked if I should have them graded. Thanks again for everyone's help and advice I will read the mentioned books and attend some coin shows just thought I'd ask sorry if anyone took offense. But I believe the only dumb question is one that's not asked
Ignore the curmudgeons.
It is better for all of us, however, if you actually ask specific questions. If you think you have an error, ask about it and point us to the feature you think is an error. If you think it is in exceptional condition, ask us for a grade opinion. If you think it is a rare date/mintmark combo, ask specifically about that.
@Kevin118 said:
thought I saw errors on some of the coins and thought the others might have been key dates so I asked if I should have them graded.
You'd likely get more useful replies if you describe what it is about each coin that makes you consider having it graded. If you just post pictures, people won't know what your question is.
This is exactly the old man grumpiness I wrote about. You conjured up “white lies” and implicitly the liar to go with it. No one asked anyone to shine anyone’s a** or gloss over the truth.
And this isn’t some generational difference or softness on anyone’s part. When you have a question and need information, everyone one today and for millennia back in time would prefer not to get the answer from someone acting like a prck.
You have been a member for 10 days and have posted 10 times. The profanity will get you banned quickly enough, but if you can avoid that feel free to jump in and get your post count up by handling some of the newbie questions rather than criticize other members.
@Kevin118 said:
Wasn't trying to cause an argument or anything of that nature I am brand new to this thought I saw errors on some of the coins and thought the others might have been key dates so I asked if I should have them graded.
Don't take any of the responses personally. This is a general topic for discussion that comes up periodically. .Just sit back and enjoy the fireworks.
But I believe the only dumb question is one that's not asked.
Very true, and if you have a desire to learn you will get the benefit of many lifetimes of experience here.
@TurtleCat said:
Am I crazy or does it seem like there are a lot of these types of posts asking for advice and the people never post again? Are they scared off by the responses or just hoping for treasure and disappointed and give up?
I see a it all the time where people post "Chunk" change with no numismatic value and looking for opinion, especially on some of the coin groups on Facebook. Beyond me why this is such a common practice. Perhaps delusions of grander fueled by stories of pennies leading to riches or maybe those Littleton ads we've all seen in the back of magazines cause this phenomenon. Well, time to go back to my rolls of dateless Buffalo's and bottle of Nick a Date, lol.
This is exactly the old man grumpiness I wrote about. You conjured up “white lies” and implicitly the liar to go with it. No one asked anyone to shine anyone’s a** or gloss over the truth.
And this isn’t some generational difference or softness on anyone’s part. When you have a question and need information, everyone one today and for millennia back in time would prefer not to get the answer from someone acting like a prck.
You have been a member for 10 days and have posted 10 times. The profanity will get you banned quickly enough, but if you can avoid that feel free to jump in and get your post count up by handling some of the newbie questions rather than criticize other members.
Noted. I also noted (within 10 days) that the snide comments are rampant and negatively effect the overall hobby. It's obvious it's a subject that's come up before. It's not a subject specific to the member I commented on or even the hobby broadly.
When you have mastery of any subject and are approached by someone who does not, basic civility should drive you to help the less informed; not turn your knowledge into a cudgel to poke people in the eye with.
Being a grumpy old man myself, I have no sympathy for people who don't do their homework, especially with the tools available on the internet. Anyone who can find their way to this forum, take photos and post them, can easily noodle around and answer their own questions at the rudimentary level indicated by most of these types of posts.
However a specific question regarding doubled dies vs. machine doubling, AT, doctoring or the like does deserve a polite and thoughtful answer. Such questions requiring experienced eyes are not so easily answered.
@markelman1125 said:
If you look closely at the **Half Dollar ** On the bottom of the half dollar you can see a doubling. I think it might be a DDR (double die reverse)
Yes, great pics, it is doubled. However, it is what they call shelf doubling, mechanical doubling or such. Not caused by a doubled die but it is caused in the minting process. Very common and seen on a lot of coins. Dies chattered when they struck the coin.
for reference: https://coinweek.com/us-coins/doubled-dies-vs-machine-doubling/
bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
@oldabeintx said:
Being a grumpy old man myself, I have no sympathy for people who don't do their homework, especially with the tools available on the internet. Anyone who can find their way to this forum, take photos and post them, can easily noodle around and answer their own questions at the rudimentary level indicated by most of these types of posts.
However a specific question regarding doubled dies vs. machine doubling, AT, doctoring or the like does deserve a polite and thoughtful answer. Such questions requiring experienced eyes are not so easily answered.
A great point. Can we stay our hand though and just not reply?
@oldabeintx said:
Being a grumpy old man myself, I have no sympathy for people who don't do their homework, especially with the tools available on the internet. Anyone who can find their way to this forum, take photos and post them, can easily noodle around and answer their own questions at the rudimentary level indicated by most of these types of posts.
However a specific question regarding doubled dies vs. machine doubling, AT, doctoring or the like does deserve a polite and thoughtful answer. Such questions requiring experienced eyes are not so easily answered.
A great point. Can we stay our hand though and just not reply?
Or, can the poster stay their hand and do a little research first as suggested?
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@oldabeintx said:
Being a grumpy old man myself, I have no sympathy for people who don't do their homework, especially with the tools available on the internet. Anyone who can find their way to this forum, take photos and post them, can easily noodle around and answer their own questions at the rudimentary level indicated by most of these types of posts.
However a specific question regarding doubled dies vs. machine doubling, AT, doctoring or the like does deserve a polite and thoughtful answer. Such questions requiring experienced eyes are not so easily answered.
A great point. Can we stay our hand though and just not reply?
Or, can the poster stay their hand and do a little research first as suggested?
If you’ve not already, try reading a previous discussion on this forum entitled “ Would this forum make you want to collect coins?” It might help to see the same issue discussed from people with more time in the forum than you and I.
To your point about the poster staying there hand and doing research, there is no logic or anything to gain from exerting effort to penalize them for their lack of effort. UNLESS your intent is to discourage new people from asking questions you find beneath you. If that’s the case then state it plainly.
@Catbert said:
Or, can the poster stay their hand and do a little research first as suggested?
After reading some of the comments here, no doubt some do.
Actually, the problem might well be that they DID do a little research. And they discovered that error coins are rare and valuable or that "your 1969 cent might be worth $25,000".
If the question is beneath someone, I'm not sure why they don't just ignore it.
Next time a long time member asks for a grade assessment, we should just tell them to pay PCGS for an opinion. And if someone wants an Overton number, we should just mock them and offer to sell them a copy.
Almost every question asked on this forum is beneath someone's knowledge base. Going to be very quiet around here.
To your point about the poster staying there hand and doing research, there is no logic or anything to gain from exerting effort to penalize them for their lack of effort. UNLESS your intent is to discourage new people from asking questions you find beneath you. If that’s the case then state it plainly.
I think there is value in encouraging students to do their own research, do a little work and think for themselves. I agree it can be done in a constructive way so as not to simply discourage the student.
But---one has to draw the line at some point. Ever been on a tour with tourists that had clearly done no research about the places they were visiting, didn't learn enough about the local language to even say "than you" or "please", knew zero about local history. I have, which is why I no longer believe that there is "no such thing as a stupid question". Ignorance is not always excusable.
To your point about the poster staying there hand and doing research, there is no logic or anything to gain from exerting effort to penalize them for their lack of effort. UNLESS your intent is to discourage new people from asking questions you find beneath you. If that’s the case then state it plainly.
I think there is value in encouraging students to do their own research, do a little work and think for themselves. I agree it can be done in a constructive way so as not to simply discourage the student.
But---one has to draw the line at some point. Ever been on a tour with tourists that had clearly done no research about the places they were visiting, didn't learn enough about the local language to even say "than you" or "please", knew zero about local history. I have, which is why I no longer believe that there is "no such thing as a stupid question". Ignorance is not always excusable.
To your point about the poster staying there hand and doing research, there is no logic or anything to gain from exerting effort to penalize them for their lack of effort. UNLESS your intent is to discourage new people from asking questions you find beneath you. If that’s the case then state it plainly.
I think there is value in encouraging students to do their own research, do a little work and think for themselves. I agree it can be done in a constructive way so as not to simply discourage the student.
But---one has to draw the line at some point. Ever been on a tour with tourists that had clearly done no research about the places they were visiting, didn't learn enough about the local language to even say "than you" or "please", knew zero about local history. I have, which is why I no longer believe that there is "no such thing as a stupid question". Ignorance is not always excusable.
Well said and I very much agree. I’ll give some thought on how to do that constructively and offer it up. Maybe a newcomers section. Forgive my passion on the subject.
Well, it will make everyone feel better that the strong value I bring to this forum is that I am the least knowledgeable and impossible to paper train of anyone here, so no one else has to worry about being the last picked for war ball.
@TurtleCat said:
Am I crazy or does it seem like there are a lot of these types of posts asking for advice and the people never post again? Are they scared off by the responses or just hoping for treasure and disappointed and give up?
I see a it all the time where people post "Chunk" change with no numismatic value and looking for opinion, especially on some of the coin groups on Facebook. Beyond me why this is such a common practice. Perhaps delusions of grander fueled by stories of pennies leading to riches or maybe those Littleton ads we've all seen in the back of magazines cause this phenomenon. Well, time to go back to my rolls of dateless Buffalo's and bottle of Nick a Date, lol.
You mentioning the dateless buffs. now makes me want to buy a roll or two! Real fun with the 'nic-a-date'. Good Luck finding that elusive 1916 double die or other gems.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
@Electricity said:
Hi Kevin, Heed the advice these members are giving you.
They are the best in the world and know what they are talking about.
I was in your shoes 5 years ago, every coin I saw was special.
My suggestion would be to slow down a bit, and spend a year reading books and asking questions on this forum before you even consider submitting coins for grading.
Membership Fee to PCGS + Grading fees + shipping can easily run into $250
A good idea would be to Buy a MS65 Lincoln Cent, Roosevelt Dime, Jefferson Nickel, Washington Quarter and Kennedy Half. All of these can be purchased for $15 or less on eBay.
This will give you examples of high grade coins that you can look at and study without spending a lot of money upfront, hoping to hit a homerun on day 2 of coin collecting
I wish I checked these posts out earlier. Great advice but I went ahead prematurely and learned the hard way the perils of being new to grading. I got whipped on my grading estimates missing by 5 to 7 points after damaging my eyesight with lit magnifying glasses for weeks. Confused after using photograde for a long time. Thanks all for the posts.
I get this same type stuff daily in the store, contacting over the phone, dropping in, or even more so messaging thru the google message service. I tried to educate folks best I can, but some down right refuse to believe that the coin they have is spending material.
Let me first state to you that this is for your benefit. Very much money can be lost trying to tackle the coin market without education. Many on this forum can benefit you more than you can imagine. Many like to heckle and others are just aggravated about lack of attempts by new collectors to learn first and buy second. You absolutely must educate yourself. I have an older 2013 Guide Book of U.S. Coins Redbook that I will give you if you provide me your mail address via PM not on this media. Before you decide to purchase a certain set of coins, study it, read it, compare the coins you are interested in. PCGS has a free Photograde that you can compare the coins you are interested in to get an idea of grade at this address: https://www.pcgs.com/photograde
Please take this to heart and understand it cannot be guessed, lucked into, found by accident nor worked around. You must have knowledge and only work will gain that for you.
Let me know. As soon as you decide you are interested and going forward with collecting, buy a new 2021 Redbook so you will be using correct information.
Hope this helps, goodluck.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Comments
Unfortunately, this is probably true.
Thanks again for everyone's advice and help
Back in the old days, you got told off to your face at the local coin club for big dumb.
A really friendly coin club guy would take you aside for a 'word to the wise' if you were lucky.
I don't come to this forum expecting to see trivial pocket change. I typically expect to see nice collector coins that are obviously worthy of the attention of the TPGS, and maybe a little bit of borderline stuff.
People who clearly state that there is practically nothing in Coin roll hunting are trying to save the Noobs a lot of grief. That is the crux of the matter. 'White lies' are still untruths.
This is exactly the old man grumpiness I wrote about. You conjured up “white lies” and implicitly the liar to go with it. No one asked anyone to shine anyone’s a** or gloss over the truth.
And this isn’t some generational difference or softness on anyone’s part. When you have a question and need information, everyone one today and for millennia back in time would prefer not to get the answer from someone acting like a prck. To try to color your unhelpful/grumpy comments as a veiled blessing and mine into calls for “white lies” only illuminates the point.
Once they figure out that the easy big money they thought was awaiting them does not exist they are gone.
I agree with @AUandAG Going to a coin show and a local coin shop shall give you a great chance to see high grade coins in assorted slabs and their values. Knowledge is power and spend your money wisely. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8, DCW
Posting in the Q&A forum is generally a good idea for questioning posts (and new user questions.)
Several members are active there answering questions or referring people in general.
Just a general thought.
We've all had this discussion before. It is possible to just not post.
Some people are helpful. No problem. Some people say nothing. No problem. But some people do respond in sarcastic or insulting fashion. That's kind of a problem.
True. Still might notify that venue to the new members because not many know how to get around or even know there is a Q&A forum. Especially if they are drawn here via a web search engine.
Waiting to see the grades
I agree. I think some newbies don't know that there is a BST and a Q&A and that there are guidelines for what goes where. But, again, helpfully suggesting they post in the appropriate place - which many members do - is preferable to some of the sarcasm.
Wasn't trying to cause an argument or anything of that nature I am brand new to this thought I saw errors on some of the coins and thought the others might have been key dates so I asked if I should have them graded. Thanks again for everyone's help and advice I will read the mentioned books and attend some coin shows just thought I'd ask sorry if anyone took offense. But I believe the only dumb question is one that's not asked
You'd likely get more useful replies if you describe what it is about each coin that makes you consider having it graded. If you just post pictures, people won't know what your question is.
Ignore the curmudgeons.
It is better for all of us, however, if you actually ask specific questions. If you think you have an error, ask about it and point us to the feature you think is an error. If you think it is in exceptional condition, ask us for a grade opinion. If you think it is a rare date/mintmark combo, ask specifically about that.
Welcome to the boards!
oops...ditto. I posted almost the same thing. LOL
You have been a member for 10 days and have posted 10 times. The profanity will get you banned quickly enough, but if you can avoid that feel free to jump in and get your post count up by handling some of the newbie questions rather than criticize other members.
Don't take any of the responses personally. This is a general topic for discussion that comes up periodically. .Just sit back and enjoy the fireworks.
Very true, and if you have a desire to learn you will get the benefit of many lifetimes of experience here.
I see a it all the time where people post "Chunk" change with no numismatic value and looking for opinion, especially on some of the coin groups on Facebook. Beyond me why this is such a common practice. Perhaps delusions of grander fueled by stories of pennies leading to riches or maybe those Littleton ads we've all seen in the back of magazines cause this phenomenon. Well, time to go back to my rolls of dateless Buffalo's and bottle of Nick a Date, lol.
Noted. I also noted (within 10 days) that the snide comments are rampant and negatively effect the overall hobby. It's obvious it's a subject that's come up before. It's not a subject specific to the member I commented on or even the hobby broadly.
When you have mastery of any subject and are approached by someone who does not, basic civility should drive you to help the less informed; not turn your knowledge into a cudgel to poke people in the eye with.
Being a grumpy old man myself, I have no sympathy for people who don't do their homework, especially with the tools available on the internet. Anyone who can find their way to this forum, take photos and post them, can easily noodle around and answer their own questions at the rudimentary level indicated by most of these types of posts.
However a specific question regarding doubled dies vs. machine doubling, AT, doctoring or the like does deserve a polite and thoughtful answer. Such questions requiring experienced eyes are not so easily answered.
Yes, great pics, it is doubled. However, it is what they call shelf doubling, mechanical doubling or such. Not caused by a doubled die but it is caused in the minting process. Very common and seen on a lot of coins. Dies chattered when they struck the coin.
for reference: https://coinweek.com/us-coins/doubled-dies-vs-machine-doubling/
bob
A great point. Can we stay our hand though and just not reply?
Or, can the poster stay their hand and do a little research first as suggested?
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
If you’ve not already, try reading a previous discussion on this forum entitled “ Would this forum make you want to collect coins?” It might help to see the same issue discussed from people with more time in the forum than you and I.
To your point about the poster staying there hand and doing research, there is no logic or anything to gain from exerting effort to penalize them for their lack of effort. UNLESS your intent is to discourage new people from asking questions you find beneath you. If that’s the case then state it plainly.
After reading some of the comments here, no doubt some do.
Actually, the problem might well be that they DID do a little research. And they discovered that error coins are rare and valuable or that "your 1969 cent might be worth $25,000".
If the question is beneath someone, I'm not sure why they don't just ignore it.
Next time a long time member asks for a grade assessment, we should just tell them to pay PCGS for an opinion. And if someone wants an Overton number, we should just mock them and offer to sell them a copy.
Almost every question asked on this forum is beneath someone's knowledge base. Going to be very quiet around here.
I guess people could start threads about coins they're going to put up for sale...
I think there is value in encouraging students to do their own research, do a little work and think for themselves. I agree it can be done in a constructive way so as not to simply discourage the student.
But---one has to draw the line at some point. Ever been on a tour with tourists that had clearly done no research about the places they were visiting, didn't learn enough about the local language to even say "than you" or "please", knew zero about local history. I have, which is why I no longer believe that there is "no such thing as a stupid question". Ignorance is not always excusable.
NOT commenting is always an option.
@oldabeintx Many extremely good thoughts there. I must say, that's why I take my Wife to England. She knows a few phrases in the local language.
Well said and I very much agree. I’ll give some thought on how to do that constructively and offer it up. Maybe a newcomers section. Forgive my passion on the subject.
Well, it will make everyone feel better that the strong value I bring to this forum is that I am the least knowledgeable and impossible to paper train of anyone here, so no one else has to worry about being the last picked for war ball.
I have one job, and I do it well.
This guy did,
You mentioning the dateless buffs. now makes me want to buy a roll or two! Real fun with the 'nic-a-date'. Good Luck finding that elusive 1916 double die or other gems.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.I wish I checked these posts out earlier. Great advice but I went ahead prematurely and learned the hard way the perils of being new to grading. I got whipped on my grading estimates missing by 5 to 7 points after damaging my eyesight with lit magnifying glasses for weeks. Confused after using photograde for a long time. Thanks all for the posts.
I get this same type stuff daily in the store, contacting over the phone, dropping in, or even more so messaging thru the google message service. I tried to educate folks best I can, but some down right refuse to believe that the coin they have is spending material.
Let me first state to you that this is for your benefit. Very much money can be lost trying to tackle the coin market without education. Many on this forum can benefit you more than you can imagine. Many like to heckle and others are just aggravated about lack of attempts by new collectors to learn first and buy second. You absolutely must educate yourself. I have an older 2013 Guide Book of U.S. Coins Redbook that I will give you if you provide me your mail address via PM not on this media. Before you decide to purchase a certain set of coins, study it, read it, compare the coins you are interested in. PCGS has a free Photograde that you can compare the coins you are interested in to get an idea of grade at this address: https://www.pcgs.com/photograde
Please take this to heart and understand it cannot be guessed, lucked into, found by accident nor worked around. You must have knowledge and only work will gain that for you.
Let me know. As soon as you decide you are interested and going forward with collecting, buy a new 2021 Redbook so you will be using correct information.
Hope this helps, goodluck.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain