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Another Family of Counterfeits- 1818 B-10 Quarter Source

burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

The 1818 B-10 capped bust quarter is another of the varieties picked by the counterfeiters to spawn a family of fakes. The 1st image is of a genuine example courtesy PCGS; the die scratch from the 2nd star aids in identifying this obverse.

The next images are of a genuine example and a Chinese counterfeit (guess which one is which?); I highlighted some "dings" and marks on the reverse that are clues going forward.


From there the counterfeiters made an accurate die and created another "family of fakes" adding different dates to the obverse dies (and some matching reverse marks).

And today I found my 1st "1825" example on the Internet- listing was removed after being reported. Seller did mark "COPY" on the reverse but is still against listing policy there.

I can't look at a B-10 the same going forward! Best, Jack.

Comments

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    More Great Work from you and the group. Perhaps the ANA will eventually give you one of their "Doctorate" degrees for your contributions.

    Happy New Year!

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    BigDowgieBigDowgie Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭✭

    Wow! I'm just glad I collect Jefferson Nickels! Though, there are a few dates and varieties that will be targeted one of these days, if not already. I just need to make sure I have all of them before they do!

    Very interesting work.

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When did those first start appearing? Dangerous counterfeits as they are of a series many collectors are not familiar with.

    All glory is fleeting.
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    burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    2007-2008 along with the other "families"- 1804 C-6 half cents and 1833 N-5 large cents. Same pattern of using a genuine example to make the dies and then changing dates to create a series of counterfeits each.

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    JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020 2:57PM

    Very scary indeed. Thanks for a very educational post! For me anyways.

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    TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,594 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder how long until the counterfeiters ruin the hobby for good?

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    oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2020 5:13AM

    Nice detective work!

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
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    oldUScoinsoldUScoins Posts: 234 ✭✭✭✭

    @TurtleCat said:
    I wonder how long until the counterfeiters ruin the hobby for good?

    That's one reason I stopped collecting ancient coins 15 years ago. Even the dealers were arguing about what was real vs. what was fake.

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    TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,594 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oldUScoins said:

    @TurtleCat said:
    I wonder how long until the counterfeiters ruin the hobby for good?

    That's one reason I stopped collecting ancient coins 15 years ago. Even the dealers were arguing about what was real vs. what was fake.

    It’s a shame, too. I have wondered how accurate PCGS/NGC are in authenticating those. I have a pile of dug ancients I got like 20 years ago. No real value so unlikely to be faked.

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The counterfeiters are getting better.... really scary..... I am happy I am not just starting collections.... As collectors, we must continue to post fakes and ways to spot them when found. This is a great value on the forum.... and encourage any new - or established - collectors to become members here. Cheers, RickO

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    burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the comments- I was able to get the listing removed and the seller stated he wasn't an expert of US coinage...

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    BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This bums me out. As an avid collector of exactly this kind of real coins, I'm glad i did most of my raw buying long ago.. when the fakes were more obvious and therefore less dangerous. New purchases are negotiated amidst a minefield of fake and genuine-but- doctored pieces...

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

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    hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great job. I would never buy a bust quarter that I couldn't attribute to one of the known die marriages with correct dates and known obverse/reverse combinations. It would have made more sense for the counterfeiters to stick to the original 1818 B-10 considering how easy it is to identify the obverse instead of changing dates.

    It just makes me sick reading your thread considering this is one of my favorite collecting areas but I do appreciate your detective work. Thank you! Another reason to buy the book and study up before buying the coin.

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    hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I sure hope I never get duped.

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @hchcoin said:
    Great job. I would never buy a bust quarter that I couldn't attribute to one of the known die >marriages with correct dates and known obverse/reverse combinations.

    .
    but you'll never come up with the quarter equivalent of a 1795 50c o-133 that way ! :wink:

    It would have made more sense for the counterfeiters to:

    .
    that would make a fantastic thread title where we fill in the blank after that statement. LOL

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    1TwoBits1TwoBits Posts: 452 ✭✭✭✭

    I saw this one when it first came up on Ebay and figured it was similar to the fakes previously described. The surfaces and everything else just don't look right. Thanks for posting and getting it taken care of.

    1TwoBits

    Searching for bust quarters.....counterstamps, errors, and AU-MS varieties, please let me know if you can help.
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    BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    @hchcoin said:
    Great job. I would never buy a bust quarter that I couldn't attribute to one of the known die >marriages with correct dates and known obverse/reverse combinations.

    .
    but you'll never come up with the quarter equivalent of a 1795 50c o-133 that way ! :wink:

    We'll only be sure that coin isn't just an amazing counterfeit when another example is found 😎

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

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    2dueces2dueces Posts: 6,252 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TurtleCat said:
    I wonder how long until the counterfeiters ruin the hobby for good?

    Didn’t take long for China to ruin the Roseville Pottery collecting world. So many fakes were purchased 20 years ago people stopped buying all together. It was uneducated buyers of course but still, items that went for $3K now can be had for under $500. Sad. Collection values plummeted.

    W.C.Fields
    "I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
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    burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    New approach today- listed as a "Mint copy"...

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    1TwoBits1TwoBits Posts: 452 ✭✭✭✭

    Interesting how they producers of the copies try to make them look naturally worn.

    1TwoBits

    Searching for bust quarters.....counterstamps, errors, and AU-MS varieties, please let me know if you can help.
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    TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,594 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1TwoBits said:
    Interesting how they producers of the copies try to make them look naturally worn.

    1TwoBits

    Makes it easier to sell plus hides some of the markers of it being fake. Still, I wonder how long until truly perfect fakes are created?

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    burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2020 2:38PM

    There are some amazing examples in genuine TPG holders TurtleCat- the so-called "superfakes" have been documented back to 2008. My records document 50 examples in holders as genuine out of 25 different denominations/ varieties documented to date. I suppose "perfect" is relative.
    These based on the 1818 B-10's are NOT of the same caliber- I rate them as middle level deceptive fakes similar to the families of fakes based on the 1795 OC $'s, 1799 B-10 $'s, 1804 C-6 half cents and 1833 N-5 large cents.

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    TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,594 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @burfle23 Given what you’ve seen would you say we would be “safer” with older era holders. Or will we have to just accept some level of risk for a certain level of coins and hope for the best? I know research on the buyer’s part would help a great deal but some of the ones you’ve shown and talked about would go beyond what a buyer could expect to do.

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    burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TurtleCat we see the better ones back to 2007 so older holdered material should be safer- to me the risk on the latest ones is when folks crack them out. One huge benefit of a top TPG holder is the guarantee of authenticity. I have been involved in several purchased back by the TPG and the owner made right, but I agree collectors should learn the series they collect to help themselves!

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    chesterbchesterb Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The dates look bad on the above examples

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    burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A friend reported he has an 1825 dated example and compared it to my 1822; also did an edge comparison to a genuine example. These keep chugging along; time to write new article!

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    johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,521 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Education is important in so many areas of life 👍

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