In the early 70’s I was attending the University of Kentucky in the honors program as a geology major. Coins were rapidly becoming much more fun than rocks. I dropped out of the second semester of my sophomore year to get married and do coins full time. [...] So I went back for my junior and senior years and got my Bachelor of Arts with a major in Numismatics in June of 1973. The normally offered courses that I took in the College of Arts and Sciences related to numismatics included: art appreciation, economics, ancient, medieval, and modern history, chemistry, physics and radiochemistry. Eighty per cent of my independent study credit hours were devoted to my undergraduate thesis.
Good to know Jon Kern got his BA in Numismatics from the University of Kentucky College of Arts and Sciences honors program!
So along with Don Kagin, we know that both Northwestern and University of Kentucky have awarded a BA in Numismatics in the past.
@savitale makes the case that these degrees may not be "in Numsimatics" and may in fact be "in Classical Studies" or something else (with potentially a concentration Numismatics) as there is generally no department of Numismatics at universities. This is a detail and we may never know the answer here unless photos of the diplomas are shown, like the ANA Doctor of Numismatics in the OP.
@savitale said:
Unfortunately this thread has migrated from "Does the ANA offer a doctorate?" to knocking down other people's awards/degrees. I'm sorry if I inadvertently contributed to that in any way.
Merry Christmas everyone!
Me too. I wasn't attempting to belittle anyone's accolades and was merely making observations on the general usefulness and viability of a formal academic program from a reputable university. Merry Christmas all!
@savitale said:
Unfortunately this thread has migrated from "Does the ANA offer a doctorate?" to knocking down other people's awards/degrees. I'm sorry if I inadvertently contributed to that in any way.
Merry Christmas everyone!
Your discussion gave me the idea to start a thread about the requirements for a BS in Numismatics. Thanks. I hope you'll participate.
More BS than numismatics. More likely a BA, but no less BS.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@shorecoll said:
There is plenty of material worthy of PhD level research. I'd like to see some competing research to Roger Burdette's. No offense to Roger, but he seems to be quick to take the word of some of the early mint officials who other sources indicate could have been crooks. Unless you have several people exploring multiple sources in very in-depth research, we'll never know for sure which accounts were correct (or likely some from each source was, and some wasn't). I would say that degree would be History with a concentration in Numismatics. The metallurgic side would be equally interesting...to know for sure if anybody's silverware was used for 1792 half-dismes, etc.
What you are proposing isn't really a numismatics degree, but a regular university degree in an established field with someone who happens to touch upon numismatics. The curriculum would still have certain rigorous requirements of an established field and is not at all what I interpreted the OP to be referring to in the initial post.
The difference would be the addition of specialized courses taught by (likely) adjunct professors. Part-timers could possible be paid enough to make it worth their while to teach 5 hours a week, where hiring qualified full professors may be cost prohibitive.
I cannot believe we are continuing this discussion
probably because there is an interest in discussing it and you are only a part of "we" who are discussing. i suggest you tend to other things, such as PM'ing me the promised micro-graphs to help me in coin identification. I grow tired of waiting for them.
@keets said: I cannot believe we are continuing this discussion
probably because there is an interest in discussing it and you are only a part of "we" who are discussing. i suggest you tend to other things, such as PM'ing me the promised micro-graphs to help me in coin identification. I grow tired of waiting for them.
It is a doctorate of nothing! However, it did give me the idea of finding out what others think should be required for a BS in Numismatics. I hope you'll comment in that thread!
As for the PM I promised, I feel that you already know it all, so I decided to share them WITH EVERYONE. I already posted three or four before Christmas and many more are coming. Look for the black diagonal mushroom icon that some mistake for a rabbit.
The ANA honorary Doctorate is a misnomer. The ANA summer seminar is and has been a grouping of classes on
numismatic related subjects. They never been able to offer any type or form of official doctorate or degree. Having said this let me also add the following.
The honorees have devoted personal time, effort, and money towards a non-reciprocal educational endeavor
to a federally chartered education non-profit organization. Many of the honorees take a week out of their livelihoods
at a personal cost of hundreds to thousands of dollars. Many of these people represent the best, brightest and most successful in their given field, while some are academics, dealers, governors, staff members just sharing their hobby and only marginally sharper than some of their students. Few offer the multiyear commitment that a college degree requires though some have decades of 1-2 week classes under their belt.
Who is too say that these "doctors" have less earned gravitas in their respective field? Does Dave Bowers mean less to numismatics than say Bill Cosby with several "degrees" for "for extraordinary contributions to society" Google names such as Kermit the frog, Dannii Minogue, Robert Mugabe to name a few. Perhaps captain Kirk (William Shatner) has done more to stir minds into space than Neil Armstrong for many. Obviously they are from different worlds. Pun intended. Which has had a greater impact?
Often the honoree may have little or no connection to the university than a commencement. On the other hand the connection could be predominately monetary. No quid pro quo?
"An honorary degree is a doctorate for which a university has waived the usual requirements - namely study - and is conferred in recognition of achievement. The first was awarded to Lionel Woodville in the late 1470s by the University of Oxford in what appears to have been an attempt to obtain the favour of a man with great influence."
In general terms, no one in numismatics has made an all encompassing contribution to society. After all we are a whittled group of age'ed white men with an above average amount of disposable income that goes into a self serving hobby. We cannot and should not tout our academic our societal influence and contributions while conducting our possession obsession.. I hold many ANA "doctors" in esteem, a couple, not so much. Not one of them that I am aware of, has tooted their horn for economic advantage. A good indicator that they were chosen well. But in general The ANA has made a good effort to reward excellence in contributing to the success of the summer seminar. They are to be held in esteem if only for giving in a taking world. In my opinion, they deserve the recognition. Not to shabby Guys. J.P. Summer seminar instructor 1984-2014, "Doctorate" recipient 1998
@keets said: I cannot believe we are continuing this discussion
probably because there is an interest in discussing it and you are only a part of "we" who are discussing. i suggest you tend to other things, such as PM'ing me the promised micro-graphs to help me in coin identification. I grow tired of waiting for them.
It is a doctorate of nothing! However, it did give me the idea of finding out what others think should be required for a BS in Numismatics. I hope you'll comment in that thread!
As for the PM I promised, I feel that you already know it all, so I decided to share them WITH EVERYONE. I already posted three or four before Christmas and many more are coming. Look for the black diagonal mushroom icon that some mistake for a rabbit.
Im very critical of build your own degrees. It mostly used as a way for non-Academics to bull crap their way into a degree mill situation. Pay a college to give you a degree in a non-traditional-worthless piece of paper for $50k? sure. they will do it.
@TradesWithChops said:
A lot of universities today have programs where you can build your own degree. I bet it'd be possible in several categories, like history.
Im very critical of build your own degrees. It mostly used as a way for non-Academics to bull crap their way into a degree mill situation. Pay a college to give you a degree in a non-traditional-worthless piece of paper for $50k? sure. they will do it.
They already do it for their athletics programs, after-all.
Is there a place to see all the recipients over the years. This thread is the first I've heard of this - probably started after the "Schook School" was named. I should think the all the recipients deserve recognition in this thread.
@TradesWithChops said:
A lot of universities today have programs where you can build your own degree. I bet it'd be possible in several categories, like history.
Im very critical of build your own degrees. It mostly used as a way for non-Academics to bull crap their way into a degree mill situation. Pay a college to give you a degree in a non-traditional-worthless piece of paper for $50k? sure. they will do it.
They already do it for their athletics programs, after-all.
It would be interesting if student athletes have an option to get a degree in Numismatics, as it would be great for them to become collectors as well.
@Insider2 said:
Is there a place to see all the recipients over the years. This thread is the first I've heard of this - probably started after the "Schook School" was named. I should think the all the recipients deserve recognition in this thread.
Great idea. I've added a list to the first post! I hope to see your name on the list!
@Insider2 said:
Is there a place to see all the recipients over the years. This thread is the first I've heard of this - probably started after the "Schook School" was named. I should think the all the recipients deserve recognition in this thread.
Great idea. I've added a list to the first post! I hope to see your name on the list!
LOL, Not a chance,,,I'm one of the ANA's "Black Sheep."
@TradesWithChops said:
A lot of universities today have programs where you can build your own degree. I bet it'd be possible in several categories, like history.
Im very critical of build your own degrees. It mostly used as a way for non-Academics to bull crap their way into a degree mill situation. Pay a college to give you a degree in a non-traditional-worthless piece of paper for $50k? sure. they will do it.
It's a little more complex than that. Some of the custom degrees are very rigorous. For example, you can mix foreign language studies with business to create a kind of international business degree that doesn't really exist as a separate program. Some people combine business with engineering, etc.
In the end, the employer cares about skills not pieces of paper. A custom degree CAN (not always, obviously) be designed with specific skills in mind that are married in a unique way.
@TradesWithChops said:
A lot of universities today have programs where you can build your own degree. I bet it'd be possible in several categories, like history.
Im very critical of build your own degrees. It mostly used as a way for non-Academics to bull crap their way into a degree mill situation. Pay a college to give you a degree in a non-traditional-worthless piece of paper for $50k? sure. they will do it.
It's a little more complex than that. Some of the custom degrees are very rigorous. For example, you can mix foreign language studies with business to create a kind of international business degree that doesn't really exist as a separate program. Some people combine business with engineering, etc.
In the end, the employer cares about skills not pieces of paper. A custom degree CAN (not always, obviously) be designed with specific skills in mind that are married in a unique way.
It's interesting to note that today Kagin and Kern are both business owners and employers, not employees. They use their degrees to showcase their expertise to customers, not employers.
Do we know if they were running their own businesses or employees in another business when they earned their degrees?
So I actually read this whole thread and came to the conclusion that two very nice leg lamps were awarded, along with a fringe-rimmed lampshade, all in a wooden box marked FRAGILE. Am I right?
Edited to add - no offense intended to the recipients. I'm going by some of the snarky responses to it (including my last post). I'm sure they are proud of the awards.
@ElmerFusterpuck said:
So I actually read this whole thread and came to the conclusion that two very nice leg lamps were awarded, along with a fringe-rimmed lampshade, all in a wooden box marked FRAGILE. Am I right?
I'd ask the recipients what they think. There are 17 listed in the first post now!
@TradesWithChops said:
A lot of universities today have programs where you can build your own degree. I bet it'd be possible in several categories, like history.
Im very critical of build your own degrees. It mostly used as a way for non-Academics to bull crap their way into a degree mill situation. Pay a college to give you a degree in a non-traditional-worthless piece of paper for $50k? sure. they will do it.
It's a little more complex than that. Some of the custom degrees are very rigorous. For example, you can mix foreign language studies with business to create a kind of international business degree that doesn't really exist as a separate program. Some people combine business with engineering, etc.
In the end, the employer cares about skills not pieces of paper. A custom degree CAN (not always, obviously) be designed with specific skills in mind that are married in a unique way.
You are correct. Some people use it wisely, others exploit it. Probably more people use it appropriately than not, but I dont have numbers for that.
Well, I have at least a Certificate of Completion granted by Adelphi University all the way back in 1981 ..... the "professor" was none other than Insider2. At least if Insider2 is who I think he is !!!
@Numaniac said:
Well, I have at least a Certificate of Completion granted by Adelphi University all the way back in 1981 ..... the "professor" was none other than Insider2. At least if Insider2 is who I think he is !!!
Your post brings back a flood of memories! I took the Eastern Shuttle from DC to NY and NY to DC every Saturday to teach the classes. On two occasions, snow closed the NY airport and I had to take the train home. My ride back to the airport let me stop at a Hebrew bakery to buy authentic Rugelach to share with the Stewardess - I got to know many of them on that back-and-forth leg each weekend. Get this. Two years ago at Christmas while buying a present in a Sarasota Macy's, I recognized one of them! As beautiful as ever, married to a pilot, and retired w/part time job in the perfume dept. I got a big hug.
For the next three years, we took the course around the country to various universities.
Comments
Good to know Jon Kern got his BA in Numismatics from the University of Kentucky College of Arts and Sciences honors program!
So along with Don Kagin, we know that both Northwestern and University of Kentucky have awarded a BA in Numismatics in the past.
@savitale makes the case that these degrees may not be "in Numsimatics" and may in fact be "in Classical Studies" or something else (with potentially a concentration Numismatics) as there is generally no department of Numismatics at universities. This is a detail and we may never know the answer here unless photos of the diplomas are shown, like the ANA Doctor of Numismatics in the OP.
Whenever I see John Kern's coin cases they are filled with the most interesting assortment of stuff.
I think the ANA could tip toe their away into this by starting off:
These don't have to be accredited to start but could gauge interest and provide some fun along the way.
Me too. I wasn't attempting to belittle anyone's accolades and was merely making observations on the general usefulness and viability of a formal academic program from a reputable university. Merry Christmas all!
More BS than numismatics. More likely a BA, but no less BS.
What you are proposing isn't really a numismatics degree, but a regular university degree in an established field with someone who happens to touch upon numismatics. The curriculum would still have certain rigorous requirements of an established field and is not at all what I interpreted the OP to be referring to in the initial post.
The difference would be the addition of specialized courses taught by (likely) adjunct professors. Part-timers could possible be paid enough to make it worth their while to teach 5 hours a week, where hiring qualified full professors may be cost prohibitive.
I cannot believe we are continuing this discussion
probably because there is an interest in discussing it and you are only a part of "we" who are discussing. i suggest you tend to other things, such as PM'ing me the promised micro-graphs to help me in coin identification. I grow tired of waiting for them.
It is a doctorate of nothing! However, it did give me the idea of finding out what others think should be required for a BS in Numismatics. I hope you'll comment in that thread!
As for the PM I promised, I feel that you already know it all, so I decided to share them WITH EVERYONE. I already posted three or four before Christmas and many more are coming. Look for the black diagonal mushroom icon that some mistake for a rabbit.
The ANA honorary Doctorate is a misnomer. The ANA summer seminar is and has been a grouping of classes on
numismatic related subjects. They never been able to offer any type or form of official doctorate or degree. Having said this let me also add the following.
The honorees have devoted personal time, effort, and money towards a non-reciprocal educational endeavor
to a federally chartered education non-profit organization. Many of the honorees take a week out of their livelihoods
at a personal cost of hundreds to thousands of dollars. Many of these people represent the best, brightest and most successful in their given field, while some are academics, dealers, governors, staff members just sharing their hobby and only marginally sharper than some of their students. Few offer the multiyear commitment that a college degree requires though some have decades of 1-2 week classes under their belt.
Who is too say that these "doctors" have less earned gravitas in their respective field? Does Dave Bowers mean less to numismatics than say Bill Cosby with several "degrees" for "for extraordinary contributions to society" Google names such as Kermit the frog, Dannii Minogue, Robert Mugabe to name a few. Perhaps captain Kirk (William Shatner) has done more to stir minds into space than Neil Armstrong for many. Obviously they are from different worlds. Pun intended. Which has had a greater impact?
Often the honoree may have little or no connection to the university than a commencement. On the other hand the connection could be predominately monetary. No quid pro quo?
"An honorary degree is a doctorate for which a university has waived the usual requirements - namely study - and is conferred in recognition of achievement. The first was awarded to Lionel Woodville in the late 1470s by the University of Oxford in what appears to have been an attempt to obtain the favour of a man with great influence."
In general terms, no one in numismatics has made an all encompassing contribution to society. After all we are a whittled group of age'ed white men with an above average amount of disposable income that goes into a self serving hobby. We cannot and should not tout our academic our societal influence and contributions while conducting our possession obsession.. I hold many ANA "doctors" in esteem, a couple, not so much. Not one of them that I am aware of, has tooted their horn for economic advantage. A good indicator that they were chosen well. But in general The ANA has made a good effort to reward excellence in contributing to the success of the summer seminar. They are to be held in esteem if only for giving in a taking world. In my opinion, they deserve the recognition. Not to shabby Guys. J.P. Summer seminar instructor 1984-2014, "Doctorate" recipient 1998
I got my BS degree in Numismatics from the University of Hard Knocks.
A rabbit? I don't see it.
I always thought it was a brain eating amoeba.
A lot of universities today have programs where you can build your own degree. I bet it'd be possible in several categories, like history.
https://www.collegechoice.net/best-bachelors-programs-design-your-own-major/
Im very critical of build your own degrees. It mostly used as a way for non-Academics to bull crap their way into a degree mill situation. Pay a college to give you a degree in a non-traditional-worthless piece of paper for $50k? sure. they will do it.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
They already do it for their athletics programs, after-all.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
@KOYNGUY said: "Summer seminar instructor 1984-2014, "Doctorate" recipient 1998."
I have your Video and Correspondence course.
Is there a place to see all the recipients over the years. This thread is the first I've heard of this - probably started after the "Schook School" was named. I should think the all the recipients deserve recognition in this thread.
It would be interesting if student athletes have an option to get a degree in Numismatics, as it would be great for them to become collectors as well.
Great idea. I've added a list to the first post! I hope to see your name on the list!
LOL, Not a chance,,,I'm one of the ANA's "Black Sheep."
It's a little more complex than that. Some of the custom degrees are very rigorous. For example, you can mix foreign language studies with business to create a kind of international business degree that doesn't really exist as a separate program. Some people combine business with engineering, etc.
In the end, the employer cares about skills not pieces of paper. A custom degree CAN (not always, obviously) be designed with specific skills in mind that are married in a unique way.
It's interesting to note that today Kagin and Kern are both business owners and employers, not employees. They use their degrees to showcase their expertise to customers, not employers.
Do we know if they were running their own businesses or employees in another business when they earned their degrees?
So I actually read this whole thread and came to the conclusion that two very nice leg lamps were awarded, along with a fringe-rimmed lampshade, all in a wooden box marked FRAGILE. Am I right?
Edited to add - no offense intended to the recipients. I'm going by some of the snarky responses to it (including my last post). I'm sure they are proud of the awards.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
I'd ask the recipients what they think. There are 17 listed in the first post now!
You are correct. Some people use it wisely, others exploit it. Probably more people use it appropriately than not, but I dont have numbers for that.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Well, I have at least a Certificate of Completion granted by Adelphi University all the way back in 1981 ..... the "professor" was none other than Insider2. At least if Insider2 is who I think he is !!!
Your post brings back a flood of memories! I took the Eastern Shuttle from DC to NY and NY to DC every Saturday to teach the classes. On two occasions, snow closed the NY airport and I had to take the train home. My ride back to the airport let me stop at a Hebrew bakery to buy authentic Rugelach to share with the Stewardess - I got to know many of them on that back-and-forth leg each weekend. Get this. Two years ago at Christmas while buying a present in a Sarasota Macy's, I recognized one of them! As beautiful as ever, married to a pilot, and retired w/part time job in the perfume dept. I got a big hug.
For the next three years, we took the course around the country to various universities.