The ANA's Doctor of Numismatics Degree
Zoins
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While looking up Douglas F. Bird, I found that the ANA had awarded him and Stephen Carr honorary Doctor of Numismatics degrees.
Douglas F. Bird and Stephen Carr were awarded honorary Doctor of Numismatics degrees from the American Numismatic Association Florence Schook School of Numismatics on Wednesday, July 1, at the Session 2 graduation banquet for the 2015 Summer Seminar.
There's been several discussions over the years noting it would be great for the ANA to offer degree programs and this seems to indicate one exists, at least for the doctorate level. Since schools generally only offer honorary degrees for normal degrees they offer, I was wondering how does one get the normal ANA Doctor of Numismatics degree via study and research? I looked but couldn't find any info for it.
Does anyone know how many people have been granted the Doctor of Numismatics degree by the ANA? It would definitely be a select group of well-respected numismatists!
Edit: It seems like there's no list of all the recipients so let's build one in this thread. Here are the ones that I've found, sorted by last name.
- Douglas F. Bird - 2015
- Joseph E. Boling - 2012
- Don Bonser - 2010
- Kenneth Bressett - 2009
- Charles O. Browne - 2013
- H. Robert Campbell - 2016
- Stephen Carr - 2015
- Brian Fanton - 2011
- Erik Goldstein - 2015
- Thomas Hallenbeck - 2018
- Peter Huntoon - 2012
- John Kraljevich - 2015
- Tom Mulvaney - 2011
- Joe Paonessa - 2019
- Mary Sauvain - 2009
- Fred Schwan
- William Shamhart - 2013
Here's the article referenced.
Here are Erik Goldstein and John Kraljevich
Comments
Is “Florence Schook School of Numismatics” an accredited school? Or just a name?
If it’s not accredited then it’s just a nice framed piece of paper whether it’s given as a “real” degree or a honorary award.
https://ope.ed.gov/dapip/#/home
Edit to add, I could not find it in the Dept of Ed database of accredited schools. Might be a naming/spelling issue.
Great question and I don't know. A few people here are very familiar with the ANA, so hopefully one or more knows and can post.
Would they be considered to be coin doctors?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Only if they took classes from instructors with the discipline you're alluding to
I suspect that most of these things are forms of **deserved honorary recognition." This may be the ANA's version - a "Certificate of Award." I should expect all their multi-year Seminar Instructors should deserve one!
AFAIK, Mr. Kagin is the only person who has received an actual degree in Numismatics. I don't know the school. In the early 1970's, Don spent a few days with us in DC to observe our methods of detecting counterfeits.
The ANS may offer a program leading to a degree in numismatics when combined with history courses at an accredited college.
While I respect the two gentlemen very much, the 'doctorate' ain't a doctorate.
Hopefully someone from the ANA can respond and provide more info. It would be great for the ANA to offer an actual degree as discussed over the years.
It's an honorary doctorate degree, which is not the same thing as earning a doctorate in numismatics. An institution can offer an honorary doctorate that has nothing to do with actually earning that level. The semantics might be confusing, but they are two very different animals.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I'm not asking about what an honorary degree is, however because an honorary degree is associated with an actual degree, I'd like to know more about the corresponding actual, earned degree the ANA offers.
Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia which indicates an honorary degree from an institution is associated with their actual, earned degree.
The ANA is not a degree-granting institution. Any organization can offer a certificate of recognition and call it a 'degree.' The ANA's 'Doctor of Numismatics' is a recognition of achievement in the hobby through work with the ANA.
When I was at the ANA I worked with two institutions to develop a BA/BS degree in numismatics in collaboration with the ANA, including using the Summer Seminar courses as part of the curriculum. There was lots of support from the ANA Board and ANA Administration. The interest by the academic institutions was lukewarm.
The primary issue was funding.
By the time I left the ANA (to start a college in Denver), no further progress was made with funding. I don't think anyone did anything with the project after I left.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I cannot believe we are continuing this discussion. It is a ONLY a cool piece of ornate paper in a frame to recognize the contribution of those two numismatists to the ANA's "School of Numismatics."
The "School of Hokum Preachers" on the internet offers similar items w/o the pretty frame. Nevertheless, do I wish I had one from the ANA? Yes.
I don't deserve it, but I would be open to obtaining a lifetime recognition from 'The School of Hokum Preachers'.
The ANA is still much closer to a fraternal club than anything like a genuine school. That was really true (but fading) back when I joined.
Regarding funding, I've seen the financial services industry offer degrees successfully over decades. Basically, they have degrees like Master of Science in Management (MSM) and Master of Science in Financial Services (MSFS) with a specialty school, The American College, specifically targeting this. The school is also accredited. I think they are able to fund these programs because the degrees provide value to the recipients so they are willing to attend. When I first encountered this school, they just had a MSFS and a single certification, but they have much more now.
In the coin world, it would be like dealers having a certification or degree to indicate they have knowledge on how to graded, detect counterfeits .and other items the ANA teaches. Because The American College exists for financial services independent of other institutions, it also indicates to me the ANA could grant degrees if it chose to. This could go a long way to educating dealers and collectors to standardized levels of knowledge and expertise.
I'm surprised the ANA would offer an honorary degree when they don't have an earned degree, as is customary, but given their interest it seems they don't have to be stopped by lack of interest by other institutions for both issuing earned degrees and being accredited.
Nothing is preventing the ANA from becoming a degree-granting institution.* They just have to put the resources to it; both financial and human. But they won't.
*Nothing is preventing anyone from creating a degree-granting institution. It just takes resources.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
It seems a shame because they already have the classes. Others not so much.
No, it's not an accredited school. It's a collection of educational offerings through the ANA. The ANA School of Numismatics was named in honor of Florence Schook a number of years ago.
The 'degrees' from the ANA are honors from the Association to recognize the long-term contributions (especially with Summer Seminar) of ANA members. The recipients are well-deserving numismatists who have given a lot back to the educational efforts of the ANA.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
IT IS AN AWARD!! It is not a degree of anything.
However, I believe that the ANA could offer a multi-year track to a degree in Numismatics. They could do it through Colorado College very easily. The students would attend the college full time. The ANA would structure the curriculum and students would Co-op at the ANA Headquarters. The ANA certainty has enough qualified "professors."
And this is where it starts to run off the rails, from an academic standpoint. Yes, there are a lot of classes at Summer Seminar (aka Coin Camp). But, there is little to no assessment of learning. And there was enormous resistance to the idea of assessing student learning when I was on staff. The reason? Quite simply, Summer Seminar was about having fun and the prevailing idea was that students would not find being assessed any fun.
Without assessment of learning, the certificates the students receive are certificates of attendance or more accurately ... certificates of 'you paid the course fee.'
Before heads explode ... that doesn't mean that students were not taught and students did not learn. It just means the learning was not assessed.
Edited to remove an extra word ...
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
And that's what I was working on ... back then. Colorado College was not interested. I met with administrators and they showed no interest in developing a BA/BS or graduate degree in numismatics. Also, CC's tuition is very high so the financials were not favorable at all.
And the other aspect that confused people (i.e. non-academics) is that while many of the ANA instructors are intelligent, talented, wonderful instructors, most* are not qualified to teach at an institution of higher learning ... it's an accreditation issue.
*I write 'most' because some may have the credentials, but that would be uncommon.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Well then the only option I see is to offer a "Certification" process in cooperation with their "official" grading service. That way, all that would be needed is proof of a successful business, good character, with a very high expertise in authentication and grading. Each coin group would be separate: Ancients, World Coins, Tokens/medals, etc.
“And the other aspect that confused people (i.e. non-academics) is that while many of the ANA instructors are intelligent, talented, wonderful instructors, most* are not qualified to teach at an institution of higher learning ... it's an accreditation issue.“
This... is the hard part. Will need people (many) willing/wanting to become qualified (i.e., obtain a degree/certification) to teach/instruct and to specialize in the numismatic (history?) field of study. The problem is that there is a problem finding people willing to teach anything due to “funding/pay” issues.
A college would need to justify the program, too, and from any angle it boils down to $.
I wonder when this need for teachers be certified crap started. 1900, 1920, 1940? Self edit: the rest.
One way for assessment to be fun is for it to be optional and only public if you pass, kind of like CAC
Is the ANA's Doctorate of Numismatics a Degree? Technically I suppose it is, but I could also print out Doctorate Degrees in Underwater Basket Weaving, Finger Painting, or Advanced Harmonica Playing and issue them as I see fit.
Would these carry the same weight as a PhD in Musical Arts from the Peabody Institute of Johns Hopkins University? No. Basically it's an issue of reputation. A PhD from Peabody will get you in the door for an interview for a high-level arts-related job. A Doctorate from my printer won't. For less extreme examples accreditation institutions come in to play to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.
I view the ANA's Doctorate as an award given to persons who deserve recognition for being "rock stars" in the world of numismatics. Certainly a prestigious award and the recipients should be proud of it.
But for practical purposes it is not a PhD degree. In fact there is no such thing as a PhD (or MA or BA) in Numismatics, as there is no degree-granting Department of Numismatics at an accredited institution anywhere in the world, to my knowledge. However, if you want to study numismatics at the PhD level, you can do so. You would go to an accredited, degree-granting institution with a Department of History, Art History, Classical Studies, or Archaeology, and your coursework and PhD thesis research would focus on coins. Your PhD would still read "Doctor of Philosophy in Classical Studies" or whatever.
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Au contraire, Dr. Kagin has bachelor and doctorate degrees in numismatics:
Jonathan Kern also has a BA in Numismatics:
Don Kagin wrote the following which is on E-Sylum:
Respectfully, I suspect this is a colloquial interpretation of what constitutes a BA in Numismatics or a Doctorate in Numismatics. For example, one may say "I have a PhD in Ancient Greek Theater". That's fine in conversation, but the degree the person holds is almost certainly a PhD in Classical Studies. They focused on Greek Theater for their studies. Splitting hairs maybe.
Of course I can't say definitely that Northwestern University did not at some time issue a document granting a BA or PhD in Numismatics to Dr. Kagin but if so it was probably a one-off thing. Some institutions do allow a "design your own major" sort of thing, as long as the administration approves of your plan.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
Maybe we need Don to post photos of his diplomas
Interesting, Kagin from Northwestern. Kern from ?? Anyone else with a meaningful degree at this time?
No it's not.
No, for all purposes it's not a PhD degree.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I think Don designed his own course curriculum. I also believe he received the Degrees. I never knew about Kern. While I don't doubt his degree, I'll like to fill in the blank about the University. That way we'll know at least two places others can goo to get a coin degree.
Don Kagin earned a PhD in Numismatics. It's a real PhD, with a dissertation and all (Pioneer gold) granted by an accredited institution of higher learning. But he did not earn it from a numismatics program, because there was not one in the US at the time. His was a 'custom built' PhD in numismatics.
Larry Lee, former ANA Curator, also earned a PhD in Numismatics on 2006 from the University of Nebraska Graduate School. The title of his dissertation is, "Measuring Numismatic Education at the Post-Secondary Level."
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Again, no disrespect intended to Dr. Lee but his degree is in Human Sciences (not a field I am familiar with).
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I can't argue one way or the other regarding degrees in Human Sciences from the University of Nebraska. I can attest, however, that in many 'majors' there are a lot of specific study areas that fall under the larger general umbrella.
For example, many colleges of pharmacy with PhD programs will graduate students with a PhD in Pharmacy, even though the specific area of study may be anything from pharmacoeconomics to medicinal chemistry. The diploma and dissertation may say Doctorate in Pharmacy, but the specifics of the research project and the major professor's research lab dictate the specific area of study.
I'm not trying to argue or pick nits, it's just that sometimes in higher education it's not a straightforward as it may appear.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
We've had this conversation regarding Kagin at least twice before and from what I recall the "PhD" was a distance-learning degree granted from a [i]non-accredited [/i] university.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/8400682#Comment_8400682
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Jonathan Kern used to be the only dealer that heavily promoted in advertisements having had a degree in numismatics.
http://www.jkerncoins.com/numismatics
A Bachelor of Arts in Numismatics?
In the early 70’s I was attending the University of Kentucky in the honors program as a geology major. Coins were rapidly becoming much more fun than rocks. I dropped out of the second semester of my sophomore year to get married and do coins full time. I apprenticed under the coin repair master Paul Stockton for 3 months. We were mutually compensated since I was running his over the counter Pioneer Coin Shop for $1.00 an hour for his 35 hour week Monday through Friday. By working flea markets and coin shows on weekends I came to the conclusion that I could earn $2,000 a year doing my hobby as a business, and I could survive on this income. Frugal living was acceptable to me if I could be my own boss.
The importance of a college degree could still not be overlooked and I probably knew that if I didn’t do it soon I might not ever graduate. I am very grateful that academia had entered the “Age of Relevancy”. The honors program offered tailored majors for a Bachelor’s degree if several criteria were met. All the course work for the usual Bachelor of Arts, Science or General Studies degrees must be met. Courses related to the chosen major or independent course work at the junior and senior levels must be taken to meet the major requirements. Any independent work in the chosen major needed a faculty advisor capable of evaluating the quality of the study or research.
So I went back for my junior and senior years and got my Bachelor of Arts with a major in Numismatics in June of 1973. The normally offered courses that I took in the College of Arts and Sciences related to numismatics included: art appreciation, economics, ancient, medieval, and modern history, chemistry, physics and radiochemistry. Eighty per cent of my independent study credit hours were devoted to my undergraduate thesis. I analyzed non-destructively a series of silver coins struck at the Spanish colonial mints of Santa Fe de Bogota and Popayan. Silver from these two mints was largely a by product of the gold mining activities, and ½ to 8 reales were struck in limited numbers. Refining materials were scarce and contemporary sources mention possible gold impurities in the silver coins. To verify these statements non-destructively I used a high thermal neutron flux generated by a Californium-252 source to make my sample coins radioactive for a short period of time. By identifying and measuring the radiation emitted from the coins, the gold impurities could be quantified. Many of the samples had a 5% gold content, which raised the intrinsic value over the face value. This could easily have contributed to the numismatic scarcity of the silver coins from these mints.
My chemistry professor, Dr. Ehmann, evaluated the radiochemistry scholarship, and my history professor and honors advisor, Dr. Scarborough, evaluated by numismatic research. I was fortunate that Dr. Scarborough was interested in the archaeological uses of Numismatics and appreciated research into this specialized field. I do not know if a similar topical major program is offered at any universities today.
Yes, this was part of my point as well. Can you rigorously get an accredited "Doctorate of Numismatics"? To my knowledge, no such degree is currently obtainable, at least in the US. Can you study numismatics (or medicinal chemistry or harmonica playing) as part of PhD degree program in a conventionally-recognized field? Certainly.
The ANA Doctorate of Numismatics doesn't fall into either category, however.
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The ANA is not a "genuine" school.
The ANA is a federally-chartered club; NOT late-breaking news. A club
If it weren't for income from a trust and (IIRC) a $1 year rental fee, it would not exist in it's current form nor would it survive. Considering the aging demographic, aggregate membership dues aren't likely to increase.
Having taught at Summer Seminar for 7 or 8 years, I can assure you that the Florence Schook School of Numismatic is not a degree granting institution. But it is the only place in the country that has enough street cred for the most cynical and hardened of this hobby's professionals to support it's mission by giving away their proprietary knowledge for free. And its instructors, for the most part, have decades of expert experience and knowledge far exceeding what any PhD might possess.
That knowledge is revered at levels far beyond what most here have experienced.
Only @insider2 is capable of distracting us from the core of his message of approval of ANA education because the exquisite cleverness of "The School of Hokum Preachers" apparently outweighs backhanded praise for the school that seems but a postscript to his mordant humor.
Here in this Forum, there are some who may doubt the rumors of my expertise but, based on the above paragraph (and many other comments), none here will gainsay my qualifications in awarding @BillDugan1959 an honorary BA in Curmudgeonry. Simple sarcasm is so sophomore year, but you are worthy just based on potential.
It comes with a diploma-sized piece of Astro-Turf that, in large block letters, reads
… I AM AN UNGRATEFUL WRETCH ...
..….…..... GET OFF MY LAWN ………….
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Interesting ... in my conversations with Don he indicated his degree was from an accredited institution. Unaccredited degrees, irrespective of the level, do not carry near the gravitas of accredited degrees.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Has Don ever mentioned what institution granted his PhD? I always see Northwestern listed for his Bachelors but no institution named for his Doctorate.
From Tom's link, it seems to be from an institution called "The University Without Walls", but is there any information on that specific institution?
A few institutions have programs called "University Without Walls". Is it one of these?
University of Massachusetts at Amherst
Northeastern Illinois University
Holyoke Community College
I wish I had a jar of my Ma’s pear preserves. I would chill it down to just above freezing and have a 33 degree Mason jar.
Been two years. I miss her. She would have been 100 this year.
An honorary doctorate is perhaps the best kind of doctorate.
An honorary doctorate is worthless as is one from a degree mill that you print off of your computer at home. Even a "real" doctorate in numismatics from an accredited school, if one exists or existed, would be fairly worthless IMHO. What would be the utility of such a narrowly specialized degree program? Could a "coin doctor" do anything that a high school graduate couldn't do reasonably well with only moderate effort? How does this lead to the benefit of society or to human knowledge? Numismatics is a hobby, not an academic field of study. My comments do not apply to Ph.D. candidates who may have researched some issues of potential issue of numismatics such as anthropologists, historians, etc., with a (presumably) more rigorous curriculum.
Of course if there are any physics or chemistry Ph.D. holders researching the mechanisms of coin doctoring then that may be a different story...
Offering a "degree" would be a waste of resources. They can offer certificates cheaply enough. To actually have accredited courses and a degree would be far more expensive and would not pay. There are actual college degrees on college campuses that are money losers and there is existing educational infrastructure in place.
Doctorate degrees, in particular, require a level of rigor and effort that virtually no numismatist would ever bother to undertake. It is generally a 4 to 6 year FULL-TIME endeavor or a decade long part-time endeavor. Given the lack of any existing Ph.D.'s in numismatics, who would supervise the research and evaluate the dissertations?
Haha haha haha and Ha Ha Ha.. would you like a list of names? Laurie likely has a list of at least 20% of them. Better you should stay in denial.
99% of you don't know the difference between slow and fast evaporators. I 've worked on coins for a collector with a PhD in chemistry who's eaten his words after declaring "you can't do that". I tried out "There are more things between Heaven and Earth than ere are dreamt of in your philosophies" but he hadn't brushed up on his Shakespeare.
If you ever get a chance to deal with actual masters of their craft (and the one thing coin doctors know is how to grade) on the bourse floor, you'll quickly find their 10,000 hours of mastery includes a host of materials for a practical doctorate in numismatics.
But you don't have to be a coin doctor to get a Doctorate.
I've known John Dannreuther for 40 years. He is NOT a coin doctor. Read his grading/counterfeit book, know of his other written works? Not that I ever contributed much, but I've spent enough time in the ANS library with him to know how meticulous a researcher he is. With how many people on the PCGS Board of experts do you have personal and/or professional relationships? Very few people? Apparently you don't get out much. The Truth (such as it is) is not necessarily displayable on your monitors. Walk onto the FUN bourse floor and you'll quickly find 50 or more dealers who could knock off 200 disciplined pages if they had the time and inclination.
Sh!tloads of schadenfreude here, As I've said before, "Pissing on the heads of giants without even knowing you're standing on their shoulders". As we all so often sadly observe, ignorance is bliss
>
@cameonut2011 said:
You have better sense than that, but apparently an overly-great appetite for eggnog
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I think there are a large number of numismatists on this board and in the industry who EASILY qualify to be regarded as "Doctors of Numismatics." A parchment from a University is "fluff" -except for the hard work that goes into achieving it. Besides, I think many of us have been around high-level academics who we wondered about.
Heck, colleges have courses on all kinds of "worthless" crap. Sooner or later we may see a program develop.
Colorado College would have been an obvious contender but Case Western or a school in NYC would be other places to start.
I have an idea how we can all help to get the ball rolling.... Wink.
Unfortunately this thread has migrated from "Does the ANA offer a doctorate?" to knocking down other people's awards/degrees. I'm sorry if I inadvertently contributed to that in any way.
Merry Christmas everyone!
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There is plenty of material worthy of PhD level research. I'd like to see some competing research to Roger Burdette's. No offense to Roger, but he seems to be quick to take the word of some of the early mint officials who other sources indicate could have been crooks. Unless you have several people exploring multiple sources in very in-depth research, we'll never know for sure which accounts were correct (or likely some from each source was, and some wasn't). I would say that degree would be History with a concentration in Numismatics. The metallurgic side would be equally interesting...to know for sure if anybody's silverware was used for 1792 half-dismes, etc.
Your discussion gave me the idea to start a thread about the requirements for a BS in Numismatics. Thanks. I hope you'll participate.