Is the era of the Pocket Passer coming to a close in the NFL??
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
Watching the NFL over the course of the past 10-20 years it seems that more Teams are willing to at least try a QB who is quite mobile and able to move well out of the pocket. It has always been a factor but never as much as it seems it is today. Some of the best QB's are now not necessarily "scramblers" but they have the ability to run, move out of the pocket and throw very effectively on the move. Added to this is what comes to the NFL from College Teams where even the most recent Heisman winner, Joe Burrow, can be mobile and effective on the move.
Could this be the new trend in the NFL??
If it is I believe it will eventually alter the entire game as we know it. Offensive Lineman will need to be faster and Defensive players will have to adapt, being able to run instead of just bull-rush the pocket. If it continues as it has in the last several years I think it could be the biggest change in Football since the NFL changed to a pass-oriented game.
Thanks and share your thoughts.
Al H.
Comments
I think maybe id should be!
So far most of the run/pass guys have had good success until they get hurt.
Culpepper here in Minnesota got Minnesota into the playoffs and won a first round game a couple of times, then got hurt.
Vick did the same for Atlanta until he ran into his issues.
RGIII didn't last as long but sure was impressive until he got hurt.
The era of putting together a team that is great for a long period of time may be over (if Brady ever retires) so perhaps a team that thinks they are close to being a contender should actually look first to a guy who can add that extra dimension to the offense.
I would still choose a "traditional" QB if he looked like the next Dan Marino. Well, he never won a SB did he?
Good question!
I don’t think it’s even close, running QB’s are not what any GM or coach hold to a high regard, think about how long between great Running QB’s have jade an impact on the NFL, before Lamar Jax Vick was the last one. Culpepper, RG3 didn’t amount to much at all. Kyler Murray can run but he is too small to focus attention on him making plays with his legs.
The era of the NFL is coming to a close.
No Way, too much money involved in the industry.
Hopefully the era of you posting that statement is coming to a close. Really starting to get old.
In the course of every human endeavor since the dawn of time the risk of human error has always been a factor. Including but not limited to field goals, 4th down attempts, or multiple paragraph ramblings on a sports forum authored by someone who shall remain anonymous.
A big definite NO! QB's that can run when needed is great. QB's like Lamar will never last. They are fun to watch with their fancy spin moves, but someday Lamar will come out of a spin and run smack into the grill of a Mack truck Linebacker. Career over. It happened to all the other running QB's.....and it will happen to Lamar. It's just a question of when.
Quarterbacks who run around like Michael Vick don’t last very long. Running backs have the shortest careers in pro football because they get beat up no matter how tough the are. When a quarterback puts himself out there like that, he’s going to get nailed, usually on the knees. Philadelphia had a quarterback, Randal Cunningham who ran around until he got his leg broken. He was not the same after that.
The great, smart quarterbacks are those who run when the team really needs it and have perfected the slide. The really great ones can throw well on the run.
Some of the best QB's are now not necessarily "scramblers" but they have the ability to run, move out of the pocket and throw very effectively on the move
please keep in mind that I'm not talking about the kind of QB like Lamar Jackson who is an extreme example. I'm talking more along the lines of guys like John Elway and Joe Montana, there are several of them in the NFL right now and more waiting in the wings for their chance. QB's like Russell Wilson and Baker Mayfield who are typically pocket-passers but who can move and throw well out of the pocket.
I don't foresee an era where the NFL is filled with guys who run the RPO like College Teams, but QB's in the mold of Tom Brady or Ben Roethlisberger don't seem like what is coming up to the NFL. even someone like Drew Brees can move and throw. it just seems like that sort of player is who is getting developed now.
I can't see the shelf life of Lamar Jackson as being very good. to his credit, he never seems to be hit solid or awkwardly, but it only takes that one hit.
Yes, I think. Yes. The pocket passer is always welcome in my home.
Keets mentioned Elway. I hated when he got chased out of the pocket, because that was when he was most dangerous.
I still have visions of Derrick Thomas almost sacking him, and Elway being mobile enough to evade him,
then (I have posted this before) he would either throw for a 30 yard completion or run for 30 yards.
It was so frustrating being a Chiefs fan and that would happen so often.
In the course of every human endeavor since the dawn of time the risk of human error has always been a factor. Including but not limited to field goals, 4th down attempts, or multiple paragraph ramblings on a sports forum authored by someone who shall remain anonymous.
I get out in the neighborhood, and play football with some of the neighborhood kids, and I dominate. I can pick apart their defense like it's nothing, and if they have my receivers covered, I'll take off and use my legs. I just totally shred them. Yes, granted they are in middle school, but that's beside the point. I am a duel threat quarterback.
It should also be noted that during our last neighborhood game, I accounted for 9 touchdowns, 5 through the air, and 4 by way of ground attack. Yes, I'm an adult and they are just kids, but that's totally irrelevant, I put up sick numbers.
I know I’m a Homer and all but has anyone seen Brady and his slick movements in the pocket while under duress? I’m being totally serious here, he is as slow as you can get but the thing is he can maneuver around to avoid pressure and set up again which is a great trait to have rather than scramble for 5 yards and slide, being able to move smartly about in the pocket and still make a throw is invaluable.
That's why Brady is the GOAT!
A lot of people think Brady is slow and immobile, but he can get the yardage when it counts with his arm or his feet. He is one of the best quarterback sneak artists around. Look at how many times teams are at third or fourth down and a yard to go, and fail to get that yard because they mess around with a handoff in the backfield.
they know where you live old man , and you have to sleep sometime
Probably the first time this season I brought it up. I sort of follow the game still through the Dimeman thread with the title that changes every week.
I'll look at the standings in the newspaper once a week.
The game though is difficult to watch, unless you are a diehard fan as Jon is or you have a wager down on the game. Maybe I am like the ex smoker that really gets nauseous at that smell of of smoke, but the game has lost all of its poetic flow. You no longer cheer the running back that bulls his way through the line for a red zone touchdown, but save the applause for the replay official that confirms that the fellow actually crossed the line.
You pretend that the athletes whose number is on your jersey really didn't beat up his wife or kill his dog. You swallow hard when your team's cracker jack defense is foiled with a late game 15 yard penalty for a nebulous call by a ref who is required to penalize every tackle that was a "good" hit a generation ago.
The GOAT head coach and the GOAT quarterback with more rings than a bachelor's bathtub, refuse to quit cheating while the complacent owner is mollified by $100 hookers.
The kneeling has stopped but the message is clear. The fans love the players yet the players hate the fans.
So what is left is a gaggle of dopers trying to outrun each other as a once sharp but now sleepy Al Michaels tried to remember the multi syllable names and how many challenges each coach has.
At least we still have the bowl games.
Merry Christmas.
Way to see the bad in every situation coinstartled.
Why do you never mention the football player who helps build homes for the needy in the offseason?
The one who visits sick kids in hospitals every chance he gets?
The one who donates time and money to his favorite charity or charities?
Many more examples, that's just a few.
Merry Christmas Scrooge.
In the course of every human endeavor since the dawn of time the risk of human error has always been a factor. Including but not limited to field goals, 4th down attempts, or multiple paragraph ramblings on a sports forum authored by someone who shall remain anonymous.
@Coinstartled said "at least we have the bowl games". There must be 200 0f them by now. Last year I watched...….NONE. I will probably watch the same this year. Years ago when there were 3 I use to the Rose, Sugar and Cotton Bowl games with my Dad on New Years Day. Now they start in early December and I don't know when or if they ever stop. Couldn't care less if I wanted to! I would rather watch the Browns play the Bengals for the honor of Ohio!!!
The bowl games for the national title are better than they used to be. At least now the top four teams, that have been perceived to be the among the best, that are matched up against each other instead of what were scattered bowl results to crown a champion. In the old days #1 seldom met #2 in a bowl game. Now it is far more likely.
As for the plethora of minor bowl games that exist, I am with you. Who cares about the “Backscratcher Bowl” between “I don’t know why we are here” college and “The season must be over” university for the Calamine Lotion title. With all due respect to the state of Texas, my father and I used to joke that there always seemed to be an “Invent a bowl for a Texas team” so that there could be a post season contest for a Texas college or university, no matter how mediocre the team was. Now it’s more trivial.
It’s obvious from the number of people in the stands that many of these games are played for TV revenue.
This has been tried before and no the pocket passer will always prevail. CK, Michael Vick, RGIII etc. Good for a few years. The NFL figures them out. Injuries or a half step slower. Short careers. Now if a team is good with drafting a franchise QB every 3 years said team will be successful in winning games but never winning Super Bowls. Name a running QB that has won multi SB’s? Besides Russell Wilson who had a running game and didn’t need to pass I can’t think of 1.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
Seeing how long Lamar Jackson can play at this level will impact Owners/coaches decisions to move in this direction. Calling designed run plays regularly, other than QB sneaks, is very risky. If the Ravens limit these plays, Lamar is not nearly as effective as a drop back QB.
Just the newest fad. Let’s see how he does against a good team that double dips them at half putting them down 13. Even in his highlights his passes are behind receivers. Let’s wait to pass judgment of the second coming when defenses know he has to pass. Honestly I give him 3 years at most. Last year the Chargers beat him 2nd time around. Cleveland beat him second time around. Let’s see him against the Patriots or even the Bills 2nd time around.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
How about John Elway? Steve Young did win one SB.
Other than the Patriots (and teams from the past) even the great pocket passers don't win multiple SBs any more. Favre won 1, Rodgers 1, Brees 1 Warner 1.
Big Ben looks done, Eli (not someone I would consider great) can't last much longer, and was benched this year. Even when Payton won his second, he was a shadow of his former self.
On the right team, guys like Nick Foles, Joe Flacco, Mark Rypen, Phill Simms, Jim McMahon and Brad Johnson have won it all. Let's not forget Trent Dilfer!
Guys who were supposed to be awesome didn't win or some even come close. Marino, Luck, Romo (#4 all time in passer rating). Jeff George was a huge bust after being #1 overall along with Sam Bradford who got hurt even though he didn't run.
The guys with 2 or more SBs are all retired now (except Brady who will play forever) or have one foot out the door. Of course Brees and Rodgers (and Brady) are in the tournament again and could win, but you also have some very promising guys on the horizon who look great. Mahomes has a good chance, I think, to lead his team to a SB along with Jackson.
I wouldn't say the "pocket passer era has come to an end" but with the salary cap making it tougher to keep a great team together, I think a running QB who can also pass well, is going to become more of an option as teams "need" a QB to add to an already very good team in an effort to win it all.
You named a lot of solid quarterbacks. But I think you’ve confused scrambling QBS with running QB’s. Elway didn’t call his own number to run. Steve Young seldom ran except out of fear for his life. I’m talking pure runners. Vick, RGIII, CK, Vince Young and now Lamar. Mahomes is about a 20% runner and dislocated his knee on a sneak.
Lamar is fun to watch but won’t last long. If Baltimore is ok drafting a Lamar every 3 years they will always beat lesser teams. But SB’s? Not then and not this year either.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
You left out Aikman with 3 and Bradshaw with 4 and Montana with 4.
True pocket passers are my favorite. But as a lover of NFL football I can appreciate and enjoy seemingly all varieties of play.
My earliest memory of really enjoying QB play was Doug Flutie at Boston College. Obviously not a traditional pocket passer but still a guy who could step up and throw it. As a Pats fan I truly loved watching Bledsoe. Even in the down years I liked his style of play. Obviously Tom Brady is the epitome of a succesful pocket passer. As @Perkdog pointed out, Brady's subtle pocket movement is a thing of beauty.
I have mentioned before my opinions about Mike Vick- and a couple of you strongly disagreed if I remember. I believe he could have been the best ever if he had practiced and studied. He admittedly did almost none of either. I really enjoyed his style and felt that his one good year with the Eagles post-prison showed a great mix of scrambling and strong pocket play.
I'd like to add I enjoyed the running of Steve Grogan. Many good pre-Brady Patriots memories which only make this run all the sweeter.
They were included in the "teams from the past" comment. All three were basically drop back guys except for Montana who ran around a little.
Not confused at all. The OP referred to the "Pocket Passer". Elway rushed for about 250 yards a year consistently through his entire career, and Young was up in the 400's and even once over 500 yards in a season. Young beat the Vikings once on about a 50 yard run, so he could run the ball, not just to escape trouble and fall down or run out of bounds.
Yes, these two are different from the new guys who regularly run the ball. The new guys are going to get hurt, but if you can keep a guy healthy for a few years he might win you a SB. Culpepper lasted a while here in Minnesota and won a couple of playoff games. Of course his career was pretty much over once he hurt his knee.
Troy Aikman rushed for over 172 yards only in his first season and averaged 85 yards rushing a year. He's what I consider a "pocket passer". Brady has only gone over 100 yards twice in 18 years and just barely both times. Ditto for "Big Ben" a guy known for moving very well in the pocket, but not running downfield only 4 years over 100 yards in a year.
The true run first guys are a very new type of QB, I don't think they will be the norm, but this type of player will surely get more consideration than in the past. Defenses have really shut down the running backs, so it does make some sense to run the QB if he has the ability.
I swear to god I had a dream last night , Brady ran 80 yards for a TD
There’s obviously no right or wrong answer. Lamar has been running this offense since he was able to walk. Harbaugh is a genius to build his entire offense around him. The Ravens went from middle of the road for years to elite in a year and a half. Others will follow but true passers, Brees, Brady etc will prevail when 4th quarter comebacks are needed. Guess I’ll have to wait and see.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
I don't think the teams have a problem with destroying a mobile QB every 3 years , they would probably love shitcanning Lamar while he is still under his rookie deal.
lather rinse and repeat
Agree, it's too early to see what the long term effects are.
I think the running QB can have as big an advantage in the 4th quarter, if no one is open, he can run for a first down and keep the drive going, where a pocket guy has to throw it away or take a sack.
I certainly hate playing running QBs. Trubisky has beaten us a couple of times by running. Hopefully we can contain him today.
nothing has taken place in the play-offs to lead me to think my initial premise is incorrect. the era of the "pocket-passer" is on it's way out, the standard QB of the future will need to be able to run and throw while he's doing it!!
Not this year... Not ever.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.