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Now this coin is confusing me
braddick
Posts: 23,110 ✭✭✭✭✭
I thought all the various services agreed in a secret, closed door meeting somewhere undisclosed and at a time in the not to distant past that "If A Dated Coin Doesn't Show a Date it Can't Be Slabbed".
Did ICG forget this contracted and agreed upon rule?
peacockcoins
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Either ICG was not invited to the "secret meeting" OR you are misinformed. Looks like you have posted proof of it.
PS The ONLY secret agreement I know of is NOT TO LET THE CUSTOMER know the actual date and mint of these worn coins by using the proprietary diagnostics of Basal State coins (like reed count, trace element analysis, etc)! I checked our internal records and will only reveal that this example is a common date.
If a coin has no visible date but the date can be determined by other means (like the 1793 chain cent or 1916 standing liberty quarter), then TPGs will grade it. That said, this is the first time I can remember seeing a TPG coin grade a coin where they can’t determine the date (excluding something like an off center error coin, or something similar).
For an extra fee (for the research), why not grade them?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Keep looking, They are out there. Look for "ND" (NO DATE) in the date position of the label. I know you are posting just to get me to reveal the date and mint but I'm not allowed to give out that info except to authorized professional authenticators.
Easy answer. A one time several TPGS felt that certain coins should not be slabbed because they would possibly "drag down" the reputation of the company and the value of their product. That's why so many coins were returned in "body bags" at one time. The coins were not considered good enough. Additionally, coins like this were once considered "junk culls" by everyone. That is until common coins in the lowest grade (as this one) became sought after by many collectors who often pay nearly $100 for this stuff.
Looks like a 22-D to me.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Here's the auction, if anyone is interested:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NO-DATE-SILVER-PEACE-DOLLAR-ICG-POOR-1-P1-GREAT-LOWBALL-COIN/233409598187?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=40719&meid=9d01b7b1a4a6449ca26c757ec1643508&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&sd=233409598187&itm=233409598187&pmt=1&noa=1&pg=2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:b748b9db-0bee-11ea-b518-74dbd180aae5|parentrq:8b2d8fd016e0a12931171514ffec491c|iid:1
peacockcoins
From my detailed study of the coin in the OP's photo I can say that it is 100% no doubt a 1923-P Peace Dollar
Would someone actually $195 or anything close to that for this coin?
That's a little steep. Perhaps it is because it is slabbed. I get them raw for less than $50. I'f I were offered $100...I'd try to load the guy up. LOL. Let him make some profit too.
One thing for sure...If it is "worth" over $100 in an ICG slab, it should be worth over $200 graded P-1 by our host.
Ignoring high-falootin' Numismatics....from a strictly data weenie point of view....
I would think ND coins could be an issue when it comes to populations, unless you go through corporate decision of making a separate No Date category. PCGS is based on the "coin number", which is based on the date/mm. What "number" is a No Date coin?!
Just a pain in the behind to deal with, particularly for (what should be) a very low value coin.
Makes no sense to me. I could pluck a dozen like that from junk piles at any show.
Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.
To heck with pop reports! They are only "guides" and in many cases not very good ones. I hate to think of all the labels I've personally trashed from crack-outs during the 1986 to 1998 period before I found out they were worth something.
Besides, who cares about the pop of the circulated junk in the OP? LOL, only the guys collecting them.
I would not pay $1 for that coin.... Never understood the attraction of low ball coins... That being said, collect whatever you like.... Even these coins need love... Just not from me....
Cheers, RickO
ICG is filling the void for things the other graders will not do, and I appreciate that! Like certifying and slabing this bad boy. There are PCGS TrueViews of it, and I would love to have them on file (hint hint) but so far, no luck. Think there has been any change of heart under the new leadership @PCGSPhoto ?
@jwitten .....Do you have close up pictures of the reverse? Cheers, RickO
@jwitten ...Thank you, and thanks for the magnified section.... Great coin... Cheers, RickO
The peace dollar should not have gotten any grade, it isn't even up to the standards of a P1. It should be a no date detail-environental damage severely cleaned
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/showcase/6602
I recommend you take a coin grading seminar before posting any more misinformation.
The coin IS NOT environmentally damaged.
The coin IS NOT cleaned.
Furthermore, in the Sheldon Grading System (the basis for the 1-70 grades we use today). there were no negative numbers assigned and "1" was the lowest grade. It is called a coin's Basal State. I'm going to let you look up Sheldon's definition for yourself so you'll remember it better.
There is a lot of room in the grade of "1." Short & Sweet: Identifiable and Unmutilated.
I would have called it good and flipped it.
@Insider2 okay you are right, but I would have given it cull and looking at the light surface aberrations it does give the appearance of a cleaned coin, though aged afterwards.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/showcase/6602
These are often in the "Cull" bucket waiting to be melted. Now, the often bring more money than the common date 63's!
For a true LowBall collector, such as myself- it must be attractive and with a date. PO1 is favored over FA2, of course. But if the coin is ugly or has problems or doesn't show a date it truly is near worthless to the LowBall collector. Now of course, as pointed out above, if a one-year-type-coin doesn't show the date, that's fine (like a Chain Cent). But if it is supposed to show a date to identify the coin and it doesn't, like the above Peace dollar, it has little to no interested.
Here is a perfect example of a LowBall that makes sense collecting (as to the difficulty in locating):
peacockcoins
See I thought the kick with PO-1 coins was that it was tough to get a coin that had worn down SOOOO low yet was still undamaged and was still somehow identifiable as to date/mintmark/type. Not just stuff that had worn slick. Anyway is ICG even still considered a first or even second level TPG anymore?
LOL, I guess some folks don't get around much anymore. I work for IGC. From what I hear ICG is considered in the second tier along with ANACS by the majority of collectors. Nevertheless, it all comes down to each of you. For example, I've met die hard collectors who cannot be persuaded to use ANY TPGS except for ANACS!
Unfortunately, numismatic education is lacking in this country. Ever since slabs, anyone can play at being a coin dealer. Ever since coin forums, anyone can post an opinion that will be seen and believed by thousands of members. I was taught that a coin in Basal State 1 need not necessarily include a readable date!
However, It would make sense to me that, with all the changes over the years in the modern "commercial" grading system, folks MIGHT insist on a visible date for a POOR-1 coin because "Poor" and "Basal" are two different words. They must mean different things to different people or this discussion would not have been started.
So, we have an example of a very low grade ICG coin with no date. It meets the ICG standard for that grade.
Now, to make this discussion actually useful, how is P-1 treated by the other three top TPGS?
What stops ICG from grading a silver dollar slick? It's obviously the planchet of a silver dollar. Couldn't ICG state that on the insert and slab it as is?
peacockcoins
Coin needs to be identifiable as to date/mm/series and not damaged