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Baker collection sale

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  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2019 10:13AM

    @Broadstruck said:

    @Zoins said:
    The other reason is that I was also the underbidder on many pieces I wouldn’t bid that high on again so that should be taken in to account as with many moon price auction results.

    You say that now ;):D

    Well, I am staring at very low grade, problem, holed examples for $50 vs. MS examples in the Baker sale for over $3k. Part of this will depend on what becomes available in the market. If it’s rare enough, that will prevent a general rise.

    The rarity would be similar to the Pennsylvania Cabinet sale earlier this year. I’m waiting for some pieces I missed to come around again but I may be waiting a very long time.

    If 3975 and the underbidder aren't buying at high fixed prices, it may be difficult to achieve the same results at auction. If so, those pieces will simply go unsold and the dealer will either need to hold longer or lower the price.

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I, too, lost my mind on a few pieces in which I was emotionally invested. Completely diassociated from its "real value," or reality in general.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • GoBustGoBust Posts: 582 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Any news yet as to who this "bought the farm" collector is? They can stay anonomous if course, just curious if its someone who is going to stay the course long term (hopefully).

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2019 7:09PM

    Man, I hope I never run into this guy in an auction again. Very frustrating.

    Another point: Wouldnt it have been cooler to put the provenance on the label as "William Spohn Baker" instead of the Pennsylvania Historical Society?

    We know it is one and the same, but it really drives home the significance of the piece when you can say you have some Washingtonia from the man that wrote the book 140 years ago!

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • Pioneer1Pioneer1 Posts: 146 ✭✭✭

    I think that the Stacks Catalog was an important part of the price push. I will be keeping that catalog for years to come next to my Musante two-volume book set. One question I have... is there another sale of Baker items coming; reading between the lines on all the posts and discussions makes me think Stacks is planning a part II ? Can anyone confirm this ?

    A So-Called Dollar and Slug Collector... Previously "Pioneer" on this site...

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Pioneer1 said:
    I think that the Stacks Catalog was an important part of the price push. I will be keeping that catalog for years to come next to my Musante two-volume book set. One question I have... is there another sale of Baker items coming; reading between the lines on all the posts and discussions makes me think Stacks is planning a part II ? Can anyone confirm this ?

    I haven't heard this but would be interested to know more. I saw different bidding patterns between the first and second days so another auction would be interesting.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2019 1:14AM

    @Broadstruck said:
    There's some Washingtonia up for sale at other auction houses now trying to catch the tailwinds of Baker's sale.

    Actually, please let me know where those sales are. I'd love to see what's being offered.

  • Pioneer1Pioneer1 Posts: 146 ✭✭✭

    Spoke with Stacks today; no "part II" sale of Baker items... that Nov sale was it from what I was told.

    A So-Called Dollar and Slug Collector... Previously "Pioneer" on this site...

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    logic tells me that two things were primarily responsible for the high prices: the "freshness" of everything and the Provenance.

  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    logic tells me that two things were primarily responsible for the high prices: the "freshness" of everything and the Provenance.

    Agree! And the high level of preservation of the medals/tokens didn’t hurt either!!😉

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2019 9:13AM

    Great observations @keets and @cardinal ! In addition to freshness, provenance and preservation, many of the types are simply rare as well. A perfect storm.

    I'm simply blown away by the condition, especially by HK-70a and HK-70e (mistakenly slabbed as HK-70). HK-70e would definitely achieve DPL status ATS but doesn't currently have PL at our hosts (may have been slabbed before the policy change). Neither of these appear in the ATS census.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2019 9:13AM

    @Pioneer1 said:
    I think that the Stacks Catalog was an important part of the price push. I will be keeping that catalog for years to come next to my Musante two-volume book set.

    I think Stack's does an amazing job on photography which undoubtably helped. I think the link to PCGS Cert Verification and TrueViews helped as well.

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    yes, undoubtedly these were some very, very nice medals that were stored properly for a long time. a sale like this offers collectors pretty much everything they want in coins/medals for their collections. like many others, I watched with anticipation as the sale progressed but what I wanted, what most interested me sold for more than I was willing to pay or able to afford.

    on the bright side, I felt encouraged to have made some good choices even though I couldn't own anything at this time. it's like what I did when I started into Exonumia: I became interested in some things that had little collector appeal at the time but now that has grown Hobby-wide.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2019 4:25PM

    Resales from the William Sphon Baker Collection are now coming to market. Hopefully there are more to come.

    The following is from a seller in Irvine, CA. I wonder if this is the same person as 3975?

    Of note, this sold for just $600 in the Baker sale, a relative steal.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,504 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Fascinating thread!

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MidLifeCrisis said:
    Fascinating thread!

    Yes, and it was a fascinating collection that was auctioned off (against the wishes of Baker himself.)
    That stuff was a once in a lifetime opportunity. Although the lion's share went to one guy, I feel fortunate to have scored a few pieces I wanted.
    The catalog in and of itself is a treasure!

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    Resales from the William Sphon Baker Collection are now coming to market. Hopefully there are more to come.

    The following is from a seller in Irvine, CA. I wonder if this is the same person as 3975?

    Of note, this sold for just $600 in the Baker sale, a relative steal.

    $600 was a lot IMHO as if this was graded by NGC it would be in a UNC Details holder as Holed/Damaged Rims.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • Pioneer1Pioneer1 Posts: 146 ✭✭✭

    I don't know how many people are aware... the buyer of the majority of the Baker sale Washington medals just donated the collection to the ANA.

    A So-Called Dollar and Slug Collector... Previously "Pioneer" on this site...

  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Dwight Manley..... His name has been on a plaque at the front door of the ANA building for over a decade for his other outstanding contributions, Did something with an undersea treasure too. B)

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2021 5:27PM

    @Pioneer1 said:
    I don't know how many people are aware... the buyer of the majority of the Baker sale Washington medals just donated the collection to the ANA

    @Dwight_M can you confirm this? I knew you were working with the ANA to display your pieces, but I hadn't heard you were donating them.

    With the collection the ANA has, they can really use online cataloging like the ANS has.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2021 5:32PM

    In addition to the pieces I posted earlier, I picked up a few more in this sale, including the following Montroville Wilson Dickeson Civic Procession mule. I haven't seen another so I'm glad I was able to pick it up. I've since built out an entire collection of Civic Procession medals.

    Given Montroville and William Baker were both from Philadelphia, I'm sure they were acquainted.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2021 5:43PM

    Here's the announcement from CoinWeek. It's certainly a good way to immortalize oneself :)

    https://coinweek.com/coins/medals-and-tokens/ana-money-museum-receives-important-donation-of-george-washington-medals-from-dwight-manley/

    ANA wrote:
    ANA Money Museum Receives Important Donation of George Washington Medals From Dwight Manley

    Benefactor’s multi-million dollar exonumia donation includes over 800 medals from Historical Society of Pennsylvania’s famous Baker Collection
    [...]
    To be known as the Baker-Manley Collection, the multi-million dollar donation was announced at the ANA Banquet on August 13, 2021 during the Association’s Chicago World’s Fair of Money.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Anyone know if the ANA will crack the medals out of their PCGS holders?

    Some curators I've spoken to have indicated they do that for their collections.

    I hope the PCGS TrueViews don't disappear if they do.

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So, looking back, the sale of the holdings in the Pennsylvania Historical Society was literally a once in a lifetime opportunity.
    The tokens and medals of William Spohn Baker are once again locked up in perpetuity.
    I wish Mr. Manley had let me win more of them! There were some real treasures in that sale. Hopefully, the ANA doesn't put them in storage.
    The Baker provenance seemingly just got more valuable.


    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,664 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DCW said:
    So, looking back, the sale of the holdings in the Pennsylvania Historical Society was literally a once in a lifetime opportunity.
    The tokens and medals of William Spohn Baker are once again locked up in perpetuity.
    I wish Mr. Manley had let me win more of them! There were some real treasures in that sale. Hopefully, the ANA doesn't put them in storage.

    .
    .
    Kinda wish I would have pursued a few a got them.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2021 11:00AM

    It really was kind of a crazy / insane sale with Dwight bidding on everything.

    My first few bids were sort of to test the waters and that's when I realized how expensive things were and how hard I'd have to go after things.

    In the end, I got most of what I wanted. Some notable exceptions:

    1. I skipped four medals (2 pairs of medals) I wanted but wasn't core to my collection. One was won by another member of the forums.
    2. I also skipped the yellow and purple Libertas Americana medal that @cardinal won. It wasn't core to my collection and I knew @cardinal and @Dwight_M (mystery bidder at the time) would both be going for it.
    3. I also dropped out on the last medal I was bidding on. I drove it to an insane price, like 100x eBay value. I had won 2 previous medals of the type and if I had to venture, I'd guess Dwight didn't want to go away 0 for 3 on those.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2021 5:17PM

    @coinsarefun said:

    @DCW said:
    So, looking back, the sale of the holdings in the Pennsylvania Historical Society was literally a once in a lifetime opportunity.
    The tokens and medals of William Spohn Baker are once again locked up in perpetuity.
    I wish Mr. Manley had let me win more of them! There were some real treasures in that sale. Hopefully, the ANA doesn't put them in storage.

    Kinda wish I would have pursued a few a got them.

    Which ones did you want?

    One thing that I noticed is that while some Baker specimens are unsurpassed others have some competition, such as from the E. Pluribus Unum collection I posted on earlier.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1046848/e-pluribus-unum-collection-baker-redux

    For example, I made a strategic decision to drop out of the running for this silver PCGS AU58, which has less than 10 known.

    A year later, I was lucky and able to pick up this PCGS MS64 for less than half the price, with provenance from Catherine Bullowa and E. Pluribus Unum.

  • Pioneer1Pioneer1 Posts: 146 ✭✭✭

    @DCW said:
    So, looking back, the sale of the holdings in the Pennsylvania Historical Society was literally a once in a lifetime opportunity.
    The tokens and medals of William Spohn Baker are once again locked up in perpetuity.
    I wish Mr. Manley had let me win more of them! There were some real treasures in that sale. Hopefully, the ANA doesn't put them in storage.

    Here is one I bought in the sale that will remain in (my) private hands:

    I guess the next time I am in Colorado Springs, I might be able to visit the ANA and see some of the Baker collection.

    A So-Called Dollar and Slug Collector... Previously "Pioneer" on this site...

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2021 8:57PM

    Great Merriam pickups @DCW and @Pioneer1 !

    With as much as @Dwight_M won, it seems we on the forums did ok. My big focus was a few George Soley pieces. @cardinal seemed to get all the Libertas Americana tokens too. And outside of the forums, Parkoff seemed to do okay on the Civil War tokens.

  • WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 6,315 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cardinal said:

    Really nice additions.
    Wayne

    Kennedys are my quest...

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So many pieces in the Baker sale have this electric toning. I thought looking at the True views, they may be exaggerated. But they really do look like the photos. At least the ones I've seen.
    Nice Merriam/Bolen muling you've got there @Pioneer1

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,664 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @coinsarefun said:

    @DCW said:
    So, looking back, the sale of the holdings in the Pennsylvania Historical Society was literally a once in a lifetime opportunity.
    The tokens and medals of William Spohn Baker are once again locked up in perpetuity.
    I wish Mr. Manley had let me win more of them! There were some real treasures in that sale. Hopefully, the ANA doesn't put them in storage.

    Kinda wish I would have pursued a few a got them.

    Which ones did you want?

    .
    I really wanted this one but knew that @cardinal was going to go for it. I didn't ask him but I knew he would becasue it fits right in with his collection.......Maybe one day he will decide to pas it down to me o:)
    .
    .

  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,475 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    Anyone know if the ANA will crack the medals out of their PCGS holders?

    Some curators I've spoken to have indicated they do that for their collections.

    I hope the PCGS TrueViews don't disappear if they do.

    That seems insane - why remove the best protection the coins could ever have and risk damaging them in the cracking process and then deterioration thereafter?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2021 10:09AM

    @Connecticoin said:

    @Zoins said:
    Anyone know if the ANA will crack the medals out of their PCGS holders?

    Some curators I've spoken to have indicated they do that for their collections.

    I hope the PCGS TrueViews don't disappear if they do.

    That seems insane - why remove the best protection the coins could ever have and risk damaging them in the cracking process and then deterioration thereafter?

    For research purposes. Some institutions are research institutions and the slab makes it difficult to do direct examination of the pieces. For example: weight, composition, edge detail, etc.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinsarefun said:

    @Zoins said:

    @coinsarefun said:

    @DCW said:
    So, looking back, the sale of the holdings in the Pennsylvania Historical Society was literally a once in a lifetime opportunity.
    The tokens and medals of William Spohn Baker are once again locked up in perpetuity.
    I wish Mr. Manley had let me win more of them! There were some real treasures in that sale. Hopefully, the ANA doesn't put them in storage.

    Kinda wish I would have pursued a few a got them.

    Which ones did you want?

    I really wanted this one but knew that @cardinal was going to go for it. I didn't ask him but I knew he would becasue it fits right in with his collection.......Maybe one day he will decide to pas it down to me o:)

    If he does hand it down, I hope he considers me for this one!

  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,664 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @coinsarefun said:

    >

    Kinda wish I would have pursued a few a got them.

    Which ones did you want?

    I really wanted this one but knew that @cardinal was going to go for it. I didn't ask him but I knew he would becasue it fits right in with his collection.......Maybe one day he will decide to pas it down to me o:)

    If he does hand it down, I hope he considers me for this one!

    >
    .
    .
    Well, we can dream, right? :p

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2021 4:26AM

    Here are two that I missed in the Baker sale. Not sure I'll ever get another opportunity!

    The obverse was done in 1832 while the reverse was done in 1858 or 1859 by Robert Lovett Jr.

    Circa 1858 Civic Procession / Siege of Boston muling - Copper. Plain edge - Musante GW-132, Baker-Unlisted - PCGS MS67 RB

    Circa 1858 Civic Procession / Siege of Boston medalet - Brass, Plain edge - Musante GW-132, Baker-Unlisted - PCGS MS64

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