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73rd Edition of The Red Book goes back to Press
Swampboy
Posts: 12,886 ✭✭✭✭✭
Saw this article hinting that Red Book demand is a sign of a healthy hobby.
Thoughts?
0
Swampboy
Posts: 12,886 ✭✭✭✭✭
Swampboy
Posts: 12,886 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
Well, I don't see how it can be a bad sign.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
That is encouraging news.... although I have not believed any gossip about the hobby declining, this is tangible evidence to the contrary. Cheers, RickO
This is a good thing. But, I honestly believe the hobby is here to stay. It’s not going anywhere but up in interest. If the mint would snap out of it and start making beautiful coins again, that would be superb.
It all depends on how large the original print run was.
large print. I need one.
that IS a good thing then
I think it is evidence of nothing. We don't know if year-over-year demand is actually lower or higher. All we know is that their estimate was too low. For example, due to students not buying text books, our book store has cut the number of paper books they stock every year. They now only stock about 1 book for each 10 students in my class. Sometimes that is still too many. Other times they order more. In all cases, total sales have been declining year-over-year for more than a decade.
It's an indicator of the age group of the hobby. Who uses books when it's on your phone?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
The peak year for Red Book sales according to one source is 1965!!!
From the article:
I imagine Whitman is generally pretty good at predicting demand for stuff they publish. Red Book sales have a long history making the demand easier to predict than that of more esoteric publications. To have an unexpected shortage and need another run seems to be good news for the hobby, even if they expected to sell fewer 2020 books than 2019.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
I think it indicates nothing. So, if they made 100,000 in 2018 and estimated 50,000 in 2019 but have to make 10,000 extra, that means something "good".
What do you make of the fact that 1965 was the peak year for Red Book sales? Does that, to your mind, mean that 1965 was the peak year for coin collectors?
The 1965 edition of the Red Book went on sale in June, 1964. This was one month after the coin market crashed in May of 1964 and well after the number of books to be printed would have been decided. The coin market crash of 1964 was something to behold. The number of active collectors probably declined by more than 50% within the next year.
I don't disagree. But that's why I think the need for a 2nd printing when we don't even know the number in the first printing is meaningless. There is no context.
As a 'popular' hobby, the 1960s were the peak for coins. The scramble for the old silver coinage infected numerous people and coins were "King" for a while. Then, common people got hit with the stiff monetary inflation of the 1970s and the 1973 oil crisis. A lot of people sold their silver stuff in 1979-1980. It's been all downhill for popular participation in coin collecting ever since.
And back in those days, average people joined many more clubs and fraternal organizations than today, too.
If by "popular" you are referring to casual coin hoarders, I would agree. I'm not sure the number of actual collectors peaked that far back. I am reasonably certain the number has come down a LOT in the last 20 years. But, I think it is hard to get accurate numbers because of the way collecting culture has shifted:
1. Fewer join coin clubs
2. Fewer buy annual coin sets
3. Fewer people are filling coin boards
4. Fewer date/mintmark collectors
3. More people collect NCLT and the like
4. More people access coin sources through digital media
5. Place your favorite change here
@jmlanzaf This hobby has declined in every five year period that I can think of. There were four people "in coins" in 1980 for every one person today.
All is still generally okay for serious (scholarly or semi-scholarly) numismatists, with above average levels of income, who are unlikely to need to sell anything. Fall outside those three conditions, and hoo-boy...
Was there not a deal with Barnes and Noble that the Red Book was going to be prominently (endcap placement) displayed or something to this effect?
If so, then the placement of the book could be a major factor for a second print run.
If this was not the cause it’s still a good to read that people are interested and reading about US Coins via the Red Book.
When I first heard/read about this this I thought was going to be an addendum page added for corrections. Apparently not...firing up the press for demand can't be anything but a good thing.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
I was collecting out of circulation in 1964 but had not yet subscribed to Coin World or any other publication, so I do not remember any details of this crash. Do you have any details of it? Did it affect collector coins or just the roll and bag market, and speculation stuff like the 1964 Proof set?
The early 1960's coin craze was strongly affected by the desire for quick profits. The roll and bag portion of the market cratered after May of 1964. I don't recall just what triggered the crash other than rampant speculation that finally ran its course. The actual coin collector market was also affected and some popular series, such as Lincoln cents really didn't recover until the mid-1990's. Other popular areas of collecting such as circulated Jefferson nickels never did recover.
This was very much an "everyman's" type of coin market. Department stores and 5& Dimes all carried a wide selection of coin folders and albums. Many also had coins for sale as well, usually cheap stuff in the case of the 5&Dimes.
Coin World, which published its circulation on the front page of each issue at that time reached a circulation of 160,000+ at the height of the early 60's coin boom. It never approached that level again, even after the market recovered ... "everyman" was gone. Later booms were very much "investment" driven and ignored "everyman" coins, unless you count Morgan Dollars among "everyman" coins.
FWIW, at some point when I was working at Coin World (late 1973-late 1978) our circulation was around 150,000. The hardest problem was getting enough newsprint.
Some who has access to the Coin World microfilms (or actual copies) could check and see what the circulation was week by week during that period. I think they stopped publishing the circ. numbers about 20 years ago. Circ. info can still be found once a year in the statement of ownership, management and circulation they are required to publish if they use the US Mail.
During which period?
I'd check from May of 1964 until the early 1970's. The circulation of Coin World may have been a very good indicator of the health of the coin market during that period. By the late 1970's the market had started to recover and then came the big "investment" and silver run boom and bust of the late 70's and very early 80's.
You're thinking of the ANA's monthly magazine, The Numismatist. That was a new development this year (started in winter of 2019); the magazine is being sold at Barnes & Noble. See yonder: https://coinworld.com/news/precious-metals/the-numismatist-to-be-offered-at-hundreds-of-barnes-noble-bookstores
Thank you for the clarification. Very good info.
For a year-by-year discussion of the coin market in the 1950s and 1960s, see the "Roosevelt Dimes" section of Mega Red, 4th edition.
The Numismatist 'displayed' at Barnes & Noble October 2019.
It will be interesting to hear the results of this effort to increase the publication's circulation.
Recently saw the mega Red on another forum. Look forward to picking one up.
I agree with you but think it is more than what you stated.
I suspect but don't actually know that a lot of collectors (especially older collectors) buy the Red Book every year out of habit. Some (many?) collect it and buy one every year to maintain a complete set, at least from when they started buying it.
I don't see how it can be an indication of much of anything, pro or con. The last one I bought was in 1998 (the year I resumed collecting) but though I have heard it is updated with new information occasionally, don't see why anyone really needs it once they have one copy.
Even if I still collected US coins (which I do not), I still would not buy it every year. I might buy a special edition on occasion, if it contained useful information I can't find elsewhere. Otherwise, buying it every year is a waste of money.
Makes sense.
My goodness, the Red Book is 100% improved since 1998.
Penny wise, Pound foolish.
I buy at least two Standard Red Books and two Mega Red Books every year.
Gee, I am a freaking loser for punting $110.
I didn't say it wasn't improved. I said I don't see a need to buy one every year. You are free to spend your money as you please. I'd rather spend it on coins, none of which are US anyway.
Ok- I have to ask. Is there stuff in the standard book that's not in the mega one? And why two (at least)?
@MasonG It's all based on convenience. The wire-bound Red Book will lie completely flat and is not as bulky as the Mega. The copies of the standard Red Book are typically quite close to my computer. The Mega has more information, and the Appendices change a bit every year. One Mega is kinda a 'clean copy' for setting in the bookcase too. Occasionally, I will give a copy to another person, but I don't do that casually. Since the standard Red Book dates itself one year ahead, you can give a one year old copy to someone and it looks like you are being more generous than you really are!
Unless I have two copies, I will find that I am unable to find one immediately when I want it. My life is very cluttered. Older copies of the Red Book are also useful for this immediate access.
I look at the Red Book four to twenty times a day. I don't know or remember everything, and when reading the forum I will pick up the Red Book to fill in the background of what other members are talking about.
Occasionally, I may end up with a duplicate copy of the 19th or 20th Century SCWC for much the same reasons. But I don't do that as consistently.
My book purchases have never cost me a single penny. The books save me from mistakes and help me to make better decisions.
I was thinking of getting one this year for fun. But should I do a hard copy or a kindle version?
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Just FYI, you can still find unopened cases of 1965 Red Books, you can buy new copies of most years in that era for a few $.
Have a question: I am a complete newbie when it comes to coin collecting (haven't even started yet), and someone told me that I should get the "Mega Red Book". In searching them out - there are also regular "Red Books" that are spiral bound. I see them mentioned in this thread. For someone starting out - is there a benefit to getting the Mega version over the standard one? Also I have seen the Mega book packaged with a Blue Book. Should I get both?
It is my understanding that the blue book lists retail and dealer pricing - so the retail price and also what a dealer would pay you for it if you brought it to them to buy. Another question is: will dealers automatically pay you the dealer price listed if you bring them the specific graded coin ... or is the dealer price more of a "will probably pay you if they want to" price? Curious to learn.
Tks
I'll need to pick one up.
@cbc58
Welcome to the forum and to the hobby! Good to read your getting right into the books.
The Guide Book of U.S. Coins (Red Book) is a good start. Mega Red is a greatly expanded version of the Red Book. As someone starting out the Red Book should be sufficient and as your hunger grows for the history of coinage then Mega Red or specific book might be in order as you tighten your collecting focus.
Checkout your local bookstore, library, coin shop, and maybe even one of the larger chain grocery stores (with a boom section) to get hands-on.
As for pricing, realize the pricing in any books are what it was before the books went to press. Latest values can be found by perusing sold items at auction houses such as GC, HA, EB, etc.
Have fun in the hobby!
You buy the red book for the information, not the pricing. I'll explain below.
So the question is really whether you want the extra information pages of the MegaRed or - as a 1st buy - the basic book is enough.
IF you know what you like to collect and one of the MegaReds has done an expanded section on that coin series, buy that MegaRed.
IF you don't know what you like to collect (or MegaRed hasn't covered it), buy the regular book. By the time you've read through it a couple of times, pulled it off the shelf a hundred times to check something, dog-eared a few pages and written a few notes that you would like to correct, it will be time to buy a new one and maybe MegaRed will have covered what has become your fav.
IMNSHO, No. I don't think there is value in the blue book.
Purportedly. I've never heard of or seen a successful dealer using the blue book. As for you buying coins, the RedBook is FULL RETAIL PRICE. What you would pay in a really nice (expensive) coin shop which has working lights, the chairs match and don't have a wobbly leg. None of the display cases are cracked and repaired with duct tape. And the proprietor is a nice friendly guy.
Both books are also - at best - quite out of date. For example, the 2020 RedBook went to press in March or April 2019, so the prices are at best from early 2019.
No relationship.
If you want to see what coins are actually selling for, you need to look at eBay SOLD (not offered) prices for common stuff and auctions for less common stuff.
Say you want to buy a 1911 Indian $5 Gold (Half Eagle) in MS63...
Start here: https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/category/indian-5-1908-1929/771
Click on 1911 and see the mintage (915,000) dealers listing the coin for sale, price guides, and actual sales.
Note the yellow highlighted ones are those that would have been available for the 2020 price guide. But there are two sales more recently at higher prices. Either the market is moving up OR those were exceptionally nice coins - not all coins of the same grade are equal. As this is a (relatively) common coin, you also want to look at fleaBay.
Still on CoinFacts, Scroll down a bit and look at the estimated surviving coins...
If there are 20,000 mint state coins surviving, with a little patience you ought to be able to find your nice MS63. If the estimated survival is 5, then you can't be as picky.
Now on fleaBay, https://www.ebay.com/b/5-Half-Eagle/39470?Grade=MS%2063&Mint%20Location=Philadelphia&Year=1881&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1
you will see four sales (as of today) from $569.99 last week for a nice PCGS coin to $455 back in October.
Anyway, that gives you some idea of what you should look to pay. If you are selling, well, the dealer is going to pay you maybe (if he's being nice) 50-70% (because s/he has to pay the bills and eat).
If you sell it yourself, you're going to pay 15% +/- in fees. So that $569 sale might net you $484. If a dealer offers you $400 cash, whatcha gonna do?
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Great information there in @BStrauss3's post
Just get the spiral version first is my advice @cbc58
It's portable
It's conveniently spiral bound to lay flat
Excepting silver eagle data it will have all the U.S. coinage you'll come across.
Welcome to the nut house
Welcome to the nut house
Thank you for the detailed and informative replies. Think I will pick up the basic red book for now and start there.
I have both but the Mega Red is just too big. Like something Merlin would read from.