Advice...
Collect4fun
Posts: 85 ✭✭✭
I’m looking for advice. I recently purchased several raw coins from a reputable online dealer. They have a 7 day return policy. The coins I purchased were advertised as MS and priced about ms64 retail pricing. I submitted the coins to PCGS and one came back unc details-cleaned.
I have attempted emailing the vendor but have not heard back. I’m disappointed. As a
Novice, I try to purchase from reputable dealers. I rely on their expertise that the coins are as advertised. I understand that mistakes happen. Of course, I’m outside the return window but I have a bad feeling. Education is expensive, but these situations tend to hurt the hobby. Am I out of luck, or should I continue to seek a fair resolution? In the ideal world, what would be a fair resolution? I don’t want to leave a bad review or report them to BBB.
Comments
My advice is to only buy slabbed coins until you are much more experienced. Edit to add welcome and pay attention, you can learn a lot here.
Never pay MS 64 money for a raw coin. Even better, never buy a raw coin until you are confident in your ability to grade and spot cleaning and other surface alterations. This takes time and effort.
Try to return the unsatisfactory coins you bought. If you can't just move on and find other dealers to buy from. Your experience is very common for someone new to the field.
Stick to coins that are already slabbed by one of the MAJOR third party graders.
You mentioned that one coin came back “details cleaned”, but that you bought “several” coins. What were the results for the others?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If the dealer is reputable he should get back to your email in a reasonable amount of time. Try calling as well.
In his honest opinion he may have seen the subject coin as an ms64, identifying cleaning is not always easy and the third party grader may have gotten it wrong, though PCGS is pretty good at what they do.
And MFeld's question is a good one. How did the other coins grade?
Even withing the 7 day return window, coins removed from the original holder are typically not returnable unless the coin turns out to be counterfeit or altered, so you may have paid some tuition, which is not always a bad thing.
The vendor probably does not know how to grade.
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All of Us
ANA LM, LSCC, EAC, FUN
Not sure what a “fair resolution” would be... you’ve had the coin well over 7 days, handled it, had others handle it, and now want ??? back?
And what IS MS64 $$? Our hosts price guide, red book, auctions, or other sources?
Others came back ms 64.
The dealer doesn’t owe you anything unless you both agreed that you would purchase the coins under the condition they would all straight grade at MS64. Which from your original post it doesn’t sound that way.
So ... as a novice you bought 5 raw MS coins at the MS-64 price level and 4 out of the 5 graded MS-64 by PCGS and 1 came back cleaned. I would consider yourself very lucky. Even some of the 'best' dealers miss an occasional cleaned coin.
Now think about the economics. You paid MS-64 retail for raw coins and then paid to have them grade at MS-64. So, you have well over MS-64 retail into your coins, when you consider the grading, shipping, and handling fees.
Consider buying PCGS graded coins from the same reputable dealers and that way you don't have to worry about whether or not the coins will grade properly and you save money on submissions.
I would walk away from this transaction and use it as an inexpensive learning experience. You have done much better than a lot of other novices who have tried the same approach.
Oh ... and welcome to the Board. Stay here ... ask a lot of questions ... carefully consider the answers ... and enjoy this wonderful hobby!
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Could have been worse. Seems like you did better than I would have expected.
When buying a raw coin, I always ask myself “Why is this coin still raw?” Sometimes there’s a reasonable answer, but dealers aren’t generally in the habit of leaving money on the table.
I agree with all the responses above, but especially this:
I think perhaps you are caught up in the idea of getting coins graded. If a coin supposedly worth grading is being sold raw, there might be a reason.
I don't know what kind of coins we are talking about but if they are older coins then MS64 is a probably a pretty high bar to reach, so if all but one made it then count your blessings.
BTW, if you paid MS64 money for these but they had come back higher, would you have felt compelled to give the dealer more money? I assume not (neither would I). Just something to think about as you roll the dice with raw coins.
Tuition payment.
If you wanted PCGS slabbed coins, why did you buy raw coins with your level of grading experience?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@Collect4fun.....As others have said, you actually did quite well buying raw coins.....having only one coin fail to slab (I do not know how many were in the group) is not bad for such a submission. Take some grading classes...buy slabbed coins until you are confident in your skills. Cheers, RickO
What were the coins? If these were common date Morgans then you spent $30/coin to grade something worth $55/$60 and the value is hardly moved by the slab. If they are much more valuable then you were gambling on the grade. As others have stated - if you want coins in holders, best to buy them that way unless you are confident in your grading skills and you can buy them for a sufficient discount to a slabbed one.
If these were indeed Morgans, you're really not hurt, so to speak. I would just learn and move along.....
As I read the original post, the sub par coin was "details/cleaned".
Maybe the seller's grading skills were pretty good considering the others came back as 64. He just missed the cleaning.
In any case, advice per the posts above....
A seven day return privilege is not the same as a lifetime guarantee, so not sure there is any recourse unless you want to let him know for his own benefit and maybe to earn a favor in a future transaction, if any.
TPGs make mistakes sometimes, too.
Just sayin'
Yes, exactly!
You did great actually - way better than others!
Chalk it up indeed .
Welcome to the sandbox here.
hey you welcome to post those that graded, and the one that did not. Just sayin
I remember starting out and buying raw coins and sending them to be graded thinking that's what I was supposed to do. I learned quick how awful that is for especially the inexperienced. 1. I was sending in coins that weren't worth the cost of grading and 2. I had no idea how to grade.
Even now that I consider myself a decent grader I don't play that game. The hobby is much more enjoyable for me not sweating TPG results. I'd imagine you would feel the same way based on your response to the results you received.
Like others have mentioned stick around here and soak up everything you can.
Also do add, the dealer in no way deserves any negative review.
Nice.
Given that there is both substantial upside and downside to having those coins graded, everything about that transaction seems pretty normal. From the price spreads, it certainly makes sense to have them graded. You may have gotten lucky with a 64+ or even a 65 and made hundreds of dollars. Sounds like the dealer can grade pretty well and you paid a fair price for the coins. Maybe he missed the cleaning or maybe PCGS was particularly tough that day. Without seeing the Details-graded coin we can’t comment on that piece of it.
Sorry, I didn’t finish the post. The top photo was The MS details, the second MS64.
When I purchased them, I liked the toning.
Was the 1895 the cleaned one? Edit, posted at the same time as @Collect4fun.
The 1895 looks to have many hairlines from a cleaning. The 1884 looks very nice.
I might be tempted to try that one again, or at least have a knowledgeable person look at it in-hand to see if it deserved another look.
Like them both but I can see perhaps an issue with the MS Dtls, I agree perhaps try it another day another time. Like many of us mentioned you overall did pretty good, don't be hard on yourself.
Based on the images, I would have guessed the coin had straight graded. And I bet many others would think the same, if not biased by knowing the coin received a details grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Even buying straight graded coins you still need to look for cleaning signs like this (among other things). Be sure the coin is right for you and you have no issues with it. A straight grade should be just one factor in the decision to purchase a coin.
Other than the fact that the dealer should politely respond to your email, I don't think he owes you anything. You received the coins and you had 7 days to examine and return them. You chose not to return them. I also think the dealer was not falsely advertising anything. Having "several" raw MS coins come back MS64 and one come back Details is probably better than average. You did OK.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
Remember that TPGs can make mistakes as well. You are simply paying for an opinion. I would not assume anything at this point. My advice would mirror some of the other comments here...purchase certified material until you are more comfortable.
Good luck, and nice to have you on the PCGS Board!
Dave
Welcome to the forum!
The dealer owes you nothing......sorry
Just a dumb guess but someone may have tried to remove the dot on the jaw???
First of all, thanks for the comments. I appreciate the insight.
For me, it’s a bit complicated. I’m in the service industry, and I’m concerned about the relationship between a buyer and a seller.
I don’t assume the seller was being deceitful. As the seller, I’d want repeat business. I’d personally want to know if my “buyer” is 100% satisfied. FYI, I make my living via repeat business-but I’m not saying that “I’m the expert in this situation.”
In my perfect world, the dealer would contact me, ask about my concerns - be my advocate.
This probably sounds ignorant or arrogant, but that’s what I would appreciate from an expert. After reviewing the feedback,
I agree he/she “owes” me nothing monetarily.
If you find one sometime before you go bankrupt, let me know.
Otherwise, stick with slabs & as much as it pains me to say it...Look into CAC coins.
My Saint Set
My assumption is because the person trusted the seller?
Hate to say it, but is "Trust" a bad thing nowadays?
Has it always been a bad thing?
Pete