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This is a question in a book I'm reading and thought it might be a good question for this forum.
crazyhounddog
Posts: 13,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
So, here we go.
Lets say we have two brilliant white silver dollars that are perceived technically to be MS-65, same date.
Collector A takes all steps necessary to protect his coin from reactive chemicals, including sulfur, by storing it in a modern, air tight, insert plastic case.
Collector B , by contrast, takes his brilliant silver dollar and places it unintentionally in a location that over time gives BEAUTIFUL rainbow toning by the action of sulfur and oxygen. Collector B has forgotten about his coin for a number of years until he runs across it one day and notices that it has toned. He decides to send it in for grading and the grader likes the attractive toning and, presto-his coin has now been graded 66 because of said attractive toning.
In this case, collector A who had taken protective steps to protect his coin sends his coin back in and it comes back still at the same grade of 65.
The question is: Can a coin improve in grade once it leaves it's dies?
Thanks for playing along.
Happy hunting, Joe
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
3
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Technical grade? No.
Market grade? Yes.
Your mileage may vary.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
“The question is: Can a coin improve in grade once it leaves it's dies?”
Yes, because the eye-appeal (which is a component of grading) can change/improve.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Nice color can bump it a grade by what I've seen from TPGS. Making it more market acceptable and with better eye appeal.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Improve? Absolutely not.
It can be damaged by the nasty though as in your example above. Dip that lady, make her pure again.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Technically it did go up in grade.
I can see that the one or two tics that kept it from 66 are now covered by the lovely toning.....presto!
bob
Sure. You can submit the same coin in the exact same condition and it may upgrade.
No ! And IMO, TPGS do a huge disservice to the hobby by giving toned coins any MS grade above ~62. No newly minted coins come out of the dies that way. Just like uncirculated coins with a lot of bag marks that come from years or poor storage/handling, toned coins come from years of environmental damage and the grading should reflect that.
It would stand to reason that a coin that has been so well care for that still has it original skin and is white, and can be proven as so, might be a little harder to obtain.
I’m trying to keep an open mind here and being honest with myself as I read along. I am a collector of toned coins so don’t get me wrong. I find certain rainbow toning beautiful and seek them out.
I think it’s a good question and also kinda weird if you think about it.
As to that other coin in the OP. It also went up to an MS-66 over all that time because of gradflation.
No it didn’t. The grader hates white coins😉
The question is: Can a coin improve in grade once it leaves it's dies?
I think once a coin is struck it is at its highest point of "quality" and can only go down, sometimes as a result of being ejected from the press, bulk handled for shipment, etc.
for that reason, it is remarkable to me that some coins look as pristine as they do.
now, to the point of the coin's grade, certainly that assessment can go up over time as expressed by a number, but the actual intrinsic appearance and surface quality doesn't really changes. what changes, called by us "eye appeal" or some other term, is our interpretation of what we see as pleasing.
Well, considering that the TPGs are pricing coins (market grading), the answer is apparently "yes". If current preferences change in the future, its "grade" will decrease even if the coin doesn't change.
I'm in Mark's corner; this is a great answer IMHO.
The coin itself cannot change except for the worse. Ones perception of that coin can change.
My War Nickels https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/nickels/jefferson-nickels-specialty-sets/jefferson-nickels-fs-basic-war-set-circulation-strikes-1942-1945/publishedset/94452
No a coin cannot improve after it leaves the press. Every coin starts a process of decay once it leaves the press it is physically impossible for it to improve, basic physics. What can happen is that some grader may decide that the tarnish (which is destroying the coin btw) may look pretty and decide that thru the horrible and destructive process (imo) we now call market grading that the coin should sell for more due to his personal perspective and as such he will assign a higher grade opinion. Say it slowly everyone TPG grades are opinions not fact. Both coin A and coin B are going thru their lifecycle, coin B at a faster rate due to the poor handling of its owner, and neither coin can be improved.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
You just basically described the same process MFeld described after saying he is 100% wrong, interesting.
Just because you fail to acknowledge it is a "thing" doesn't mean it isnt.
Toned coins bring more money, the market proves this time and time again.
I actually misread Mark's reply so I've edited that out. And yes right now toned coins can bring a premium, but we don't live in a vacuum and while that is true now; toned coins will not always be in favor. Just as blast white is not as popular as they once were some day toned coins will fall out of favor for the next promotion.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
“@Mfield” didn’t even post to this thread.😉
And I didn’t say that a coin can “improve after it leaves the press”. I answered yes to the question “Can a coin improve in grade once it leaves it's dies?” Those are two different things.
Whether you like it or agree with it or not, in many instances “tarnish” adds to the eye-appeal of some coins. And eye-appeal is a component of grading.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Here is another area where Mark and myself are in TOTAL agreement.
Yes Mark as I said I misread you post (and misspelled your name) and edited that out as I was incorrect. And you are also correct that I dislike market grading and eye-appeal has no place in the grading room as far as I'm concerned. It is totally subjective and should not be used to manipulate grades.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Yippee for you and Mark
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
All good and understood.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I agree 100% with DelawareDoons. All of the major grading firms have a set standard of grading criteria based on a particular coins surface condition. Ticks, bag scuffs, mint luster and so forth define a said grade. I would think that these standards are based on how it left the mint as struck. Again, these are general guidelines so as to be market acceptable. They are, however, loosely interpreted from firm to firm which explains why one grades MS63 while the other grades the same coin MS64. This occurs quite regularly when having them cross-graded.
As for toning getting a higher grade, no. The difficulty, based on how heavy the toning is, would be accurately grading it compared to a "white" example. Not impossible, but difficult since in some instances it hides blemishes otherwise visible against mint luster. A perfect example would be the 1894s Barber Dime recently sold at the ANA Show.
The main selling point, rarity aside, is eye appeal. Which explains why toned coins often bring higher prices. Like graded coins simply sell for more, toned or not. Even with the same auction.
This is correct. Eye appeal is part of the grade. Check out the PCGS grading guide. I don’t like it but that’s the way it is.
This is why grading now is so subjective and why there will always be arguments over grade with these standards in place.
Buy what you like at a price your comfortable with.
Great discussion and it’s food for thought.
The book I’m reading is ( Coin Chemistry ) by Weimar W. White and is a great read. Some parts kinda get boring but for the most part it’s a great information packed book if you’re looking to get more educated on the toning process along with the components that cause toning.
Thank you to all that has chimed in and has giving your take on the subject.
Happy hunting, Joe
@Ebeneezer said: "I agree 100% with DelawareDoons [who posted technical grade no; market grade yes]. All of the major grading firms have a set standard of grading criteria based on a particular coins surface condition."
Actually, I don't think anyone could prove that any such SET STANDARD exists at any TPGS. They do have a group of knowledgeable professionals guided by a finalizer to try for consistency but market conditions, whinny dealers, and the passage of time works against any set standard.
"Ticks, bag scuffs, mint luster and so forth define a said grade. I would think that these standards are based on how it left the mint as struck"
That is the goal except with regard to a coin's fullness of strike. Over time, weaker struck coins are now graded higher than in the past.
"Again, these are general guidelines so as to be market acceptable. They are, however, loosely interpreted from firm to firm which explains why one grades MS63 while the other grades the same coin MS64. This occurs quite regularly when having them cross-graded. As for toning getting a higher grade, NO."
You seem to contradict yourself later:
"The difficulty, based on how heavy the toning is, would be accurately grading it compared to a "white" example. Not impossible, but difficult since in some instances it hides blemishes otherwise visible against mint luster. A perfect example would be the 1894s Barber Dime recently sold at the ANA Show."
"The main selling point, rarity aside, is eye appeal. Which explains why toned coins often bring higher prices."
I'll suggest the higher prices result because they often are graded higher because of the toning.
"Like graded coins simply sell for more, toned or not. Even with the same auction."
Nuts to this! Like graded coins don't sell for the same prices and very often the difference is a large amount of money.
Seems to me that IF you have an issue grading "eye appeal", because it's too subjective, (I'll join you, to some extent)....You can think of it as grading "uniqueness".
In a world filled with white Morgans, that you can fill a shopping cart with, a blue or red or green Morgan has a UNIQUE look. People will pay extra for a coin that doesn't look like the rest. A coin that is actually hard to replace.(Sometimes, even when you/I don't care much for the look).
The ONLY reason technical grades are significant is because of registry competition. In the loftier technical grades often the only differentiating economic factor is the eye appeal of the coin. Who really wants a 150 year old coin that looks like it just left the mint? I have submitted a number of Proof Indian Cents that look like they just came out of the mint, and guess what........they all graded .91 Questionable Color. Silver coins should also be graded .91 when they have been dipped to look like they just left the Mint.
OINK
Let's say that they both grade MS65. Would they be worth the same money. My Spidy-senses tell me NO.
No coin was ever more original than the moment it was struck, but the market currently favors pretty colors. Grades eventually seem to gravitate to a shorthand for market valuation, so they will eventually swing around to follow the latest trends.
I cant tippy toe around this question as it comes up on a daily basis around here.
So Im getting down to it.
A'rent grading scores for a monatary reward ?
Does patina, tonning, or just plain whipping an old desk with a chain, add to its value?
Well, their three very different subjects.
and should be kept in their own area with individual professional experts.
Is there not a certificate to accompany the slab with its report card style of its final
GPA. ? Or monatary value. ?
Now after all that I just typed, I'm questioning the fact that all people have a personal interest, style, or position
of the effect of tonning by itself
Example of the the tonning. I prefer green for , The Eagles, yellow green, Packers, or I work for USP( un plugged}
brown, gold, black. This is the never ending story or maybe a career ending question if your debating your boss who's a Packer fan.
That's all I Know about that!
>
I’ll vote a personal no on that. I want a coin grade to be as objective as possible with criteria standard enough that any two people would come to the same conclusion on the same coin.
Value (perceived) shouldn’t be included in the grade. Let the market decide. Let the individual decide.
Accugrade had a good model here. Put that eye appeal factor on the slab as something in addition to the grade.
The issue of 'eye appeal' in grading is - IMO - far too subjective to be part of a coin's grade. As can be seen from the preceding posts...eye appeal, as in art, is a personal opinion. What appeals to one, may not appeal to another. I have lobbied for real standards in coin grading for as long as I have been here... and eye appeal cannot be standardized. Cheers, RickO
I’m going to be honest with myself. A coin cannot and should not improve once it leaves it’s dies. In my opinion it’s silly to think such a thing. Tarnish should NEVER effect the grade of a coin. Let those who purchase said coin determine the price rather than the grader. Like many have said, @Ricko, it’s way too subjective for a single grader or even tree graders to determine. That’s for the market to determine. I believe a coin should be graded on merit. The strike, luster, original skin , not cleaned, and the lack of blemishes. Tarnish should not enter the equation.
Thanks again to all that has chimed in.
Happy hunting, Joe
@crazyhounddog....We are 100% in agreement. Cheers, RickO
Too bad Brown and Dunn was in black and white.
A grading system where a coin can go up like this needs to be changed.
I thought grading was about the perfection of the strike of the dies on the planchet. Silly me. Peace Roy
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@crazyhoundog Joe, I am not surprised that you might bring up the subject of your OP. But then you want to make a case, as many on this forum do, that coins should be rigidly technically graded and eye appeal should have no effect on that grade. And in many respects you cannot argue that TPGS graders do anything than that. This is especially evident on their grading of "toned" (corroded) silver coins that you cannot tell from a picture the merits of their lofty technical grade. So, obviously they can use their X-Ray vision to see the coin is as perfect as their assigned grade under a significant layer of corrosion.
But when it comes to copper and to a lesser extent nickel coins, they will body bag a coin for Questionable Color (.91). Does this ever happen with silver coins???? You have posted over the years specimens from your collection that have FABULOUS eye appeal. By your new way of thinking, perhaps they are all over-graded due to their eye appeal?
As an afficianado of nicely colored buffaloes I am somewhat taken back by your position on rigid technical grading where eye appeal should have no importance.
OINK
I own a collection of toned coins because I like the way they look, they appeal to me. I also am know to pay up for what I think is beautiful toning.
The point I’m trying to make is: A coin cannot and should not go up in a technical grade after it leaves its die. I agree the market should decide what it’s worth at the point of sale just like art. That’s it in a nutshell.
I love attractively toned coins, that I think are original. But this is my personal opinion. It should not be worked into a technical grade.
Joe, I completely understand what you are saying and totally agree with you.
@crazyhoundog
"The question is: Can a coin improve in grade once it leaves it's dies?
Perhaps this might be a high water starting point........ But business strike coins are a mass produced item and as well know the dies wear and there is great variation in the quality of strike in the coin as it leaves the die. Most coins were not MS/PR 70 coming out of the die.
Slabbing of coins by TPGs only started about 50 years ago. So, coins that are 100-200 years old have been stored for most of their lives in less than the "pristine" condition of a slab. In the 100-200 years that these coins have existed, their environment has changed their appearance because the metal of which they are made is reactive with many environmental gasses in out environment.
Grading is a subjective, rather than an absolute process. It will never be the perfect system to evaluate the merits of a coin. To base even this flawed subjective analysis on the basis of "once it leaves the dies" assumes that a coin's appearance cannot change over time.
Joe, I think that you are now more interesting and handsome than you were when you were born? I would like to grade you with a different standard than you would like to grade coins.
OINK
So if toning adds to the grade, what happens when an MS70 or PR70 coin tones nicely?
There’s a big difference between a coin’s appearance changing over time and the quality rating/grade of the coin improving/increasing with that change in appearance. I have no objection to a coin receiving a higher grade than it otherwise might, due to exceptional eye-appeal (toning). But I can certainly understand why many others feel differently.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Would you expand on why you think it is ok for a coin to be given a higher grade due only to tarnish. And how do you think that will affect the hobby going forward. This is in a nutshell the issue of gradeflation which many do not like, your statement seems imo to indicate you are pro gradeflation. I can understand where gradeflation is good for dealers, crackout guys, and the doctors on the money side; but I fail to see any benefit to collectors or the hobby.
I also think that by interjecting the personal bias of eye-appeal into the grade TPG's have gone from impartial third parties to now being market movers and by doing so are no longer an impartial third party.
And I spelled your name correctly this time.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
.> @coinbuf said:
Good job on my name. 😉
I think it’s acceptable to award a coin a higher grade “due only to tarnish” because eye appeal is part of a coin’s grade. So, if a coin displays especially attractive patina, enhancing its eye appeal, it can warrant a higher grade. However, I don’t think that should apply to coins that grade less than 60, as they should be graded based on the amount of wear and luster. I also don’t feel that a coin grading 60 or higher should be awarded more than one additional point for eye appeal. And I have seen a good number of coins whose grades appear to have been bumped by more than a point, due to great color.
I don’t think the hobby will be affected by this much at all in the future, as it’s already been going on for a long time.
I’m strongly opposed to grade-flation. I feel that in the long run, it’s bad for the hobby.
As I mentioned in another post, while I’m OK with eye appeal being considered in a coin’s grade, I can understand why many hobbyists are opposed to the idea.
I have a question for you and anyone else who’s opposed to including eye appeal in a coin’s grade - how do you feel about negative eye appeal affecting/counting against a coin’s grade? I see a lot of coins that are technically very nice, but at the same time, quite ugly. Would you penalize them with lower grades?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
No I would not want a coin with ugly toning natural or not to be reduced a grade due to the toning. I want a pure technical grade and let the market decide which coins the customer will pay more or less for, that is how a true free market should work. But I understand that we have the current system because of the money side of things. An example of this is the walker someone posted today with the unattractive (to me and some others that posted on that thread), that tone is very natural looking but unattractive and the coin should not be grade reduced because of it.
I would agree with you that the current system has been around for awhile now, but disagree with regard to the future. I think that in some part the slowing of the market can be tied to market grading, and I believe that continued use of market grading will kill the middle to slightly higher end of the MS market leaving the whales at the very top and the lower circulated coins that are not as affected
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Graded no higher than a 62? Isn’t that a bit ruff 😳. I don’t believe a coin should go up because it has pretty toning, color etc. On the same hand I sure don’t think it should be penalized either. Many feel that older coins that were collected way back in the day, before plastic inert holders were around, were taken care of the best the collector, at that time, could muster. Probably in a paper envelope or maybe a pouch-sock. But any of those methods can and will create toning/tarnish. All told I kinda look at blast white coins from old days as questionable because they’re still white, how can they stay that way? How could that be?
I feel coins should be graded without the color playing a role either way. What’s pretty to some collectors might be ugly to another like @CCGGG feels 😂.
I collect toned buffalo nickels I might even pay up for that color if it appeals to me. The market, or, collectors will pay up for appealing coins and that’s a guarantee. Technical grading should be just that. Strike, luster, clean fields, free of bag marks/blemishes etc.
Happy hunting, Joe
What do you think the cut-off date is, where white goes from okay to not okay?