Discussion around W Quarters...and...so...how many quarters are actually in circulation anyway?
nickelsciolist
Posts: 195 ✭✭✭
Facts I understand:
Fact 1) About 2 million of the W quarters are being made and "salted" into general circulation.
Fact 2) About 1.85 billon total quarters were made in 2018.
Fact 3) There are a great many other quarters already in circulation.
So here's a dumb line of questions that arises for me...anybody know how many quarters are in circulation at any given time? If the Mint is making almost 2 billion quarters a year do they dump them all into circulation? Really? So the increase in the money supply is almost 2 billion...just in quarters? Every year? That seems...impossible. Doesn't seem like very many quarters go AWOL each year either, so the circulating supply of 25 cent pieces would seem to be growing...by that much annually?
Nah...what am I missing here?
Comments
Actually it’s 2 million per design 10 million W quarters in all
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Federal reserve banks are constantly removing damaged coins from circulation, hopefully at the same rate. I suspect a lot of uncirculated new quarters are stockpiled at the Federal Reserve branch banks waiting to be thrown into circulation. Just got a box the other day, all the same 2017 shiny new coin.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
Most people I know throw loose change in a container of some sort where it stays for years.
There are ~250 million adults in the US. If each one throws 8 quarters a YEAR into their jar, that accounts for 2 billion.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
I haven't run the numbers in years but there should be a little over 60 billion quarters in circulation. This number goes up only a a few hundred million a year (if that) because coins are constantly being lost and destroyed. 55% of 1965 quarters are gone now.
It would be impossible to put a number on it, as well it would be problematic to define what "in circulation" exactly means.
Do sock drawers and shoe box accumulations, coin dealers' stock, etc. count as circulating coins?
Just think about all the businesses, both large and small that have cash drawers -- some just one, some multiple drawers--banks, etc.
It's certainly a large number, in the many billions for sure.
Mostly true. Yes, they were put into containers that are meant for circulation, but that doesn't mean they went into circulation, and could be sitting in some secure warehouse until there's demand. Unless the banking industry rotates coin stock like grocery stores, some of those containers may not see the light of day for years.
Of the 10 million W-Mint quarters, I wonder how many are actually in circulation, and how many are still in shipping containers and $500 roll boxes that are on the back of the shelf. (Well, okay, 8 million until the No Return quarters get released next week...)
Seigniorage. BWAhahahaha....
Now, you want a bigger mystery, take a look at cent production. Denver and Philly struck close to 8 billion last year. 8.5 billion the year before that. 9.1 billion the year before that. 9.3 billion the year before that. Where do all those go? And since we're losing money making them, why are they still being made? (Getting off my soapbox now....
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I always hear about how many Morgans have been melted by the government, but never seem to hear how many regular coins are being removed and melted. Is there a report anywhere that tells us that number?
I have jars of cents, quarters, nickels, dimes....and a few ziploc bags as well...and from the amount of business Coinstar does, so do many other people. Billions and billions of coins in homes....Cheers, RickO
This
Quarters don't buy hardly anything and are only useful commercially in vending machines and toll booths. Fewer vending machines accept quarters as old ones are replaced.
I don't have a stash of change anymore, as I choose not to pay with it and avoid using cash when I will receive change back. Literally have almost none, of any denomination. But maybe 15 years ago, I probably had over 500.
What I learned from all my friends on CU:
Umm...I just want everyone to know I did know this...I just said it dumb. I'm not always as dumb as I sound...
This makes sense...I presume they also reuse the metal to make more...now I wonder how they obtain these coins and sort them, I'm sure Google will tell me!
Just think about all the businesses, both large and small that have cash drawers -- some just one, some multiple drawers--banks, etc. It's certainly a large number, in the many billions for sure.
BILLIONS ANS BILLIONS as one famed Astronomer used to say...
Right! HA! I checked our coin jar and there was over 20 bucks worth in there! Not including al the ones I have in collection.
Hmm...I assume you have some source you find credible for these stats, that is pretty cool. So...250 m guzinta 60b 240 times. I have way more quarters than most of my fellow citizens!
**HA! Right. Thinking this through, if the Mint is making a mint on quarters, the incentive to overcome the intertia on quitting pennies is that much less. Also, I have heard that a concern is, eliminate pennies and you need more nickels, which actually cost almost a dime to make, so unintended consequence might be net loss! **
My question as well!
BILLIONS AND BILLIONS!!! IT STAGGERS THE IMAGINATION!!!> @WCC said:
**I'll bet you have some in collection though
**
Actually, no. Not anymore since I don't collect any US coins. I used to own a few of the SQ proof sets but sold it back in 2006.
@nickelsciolist
Circulating coin mintages:
https://www.usmint.gov/about/production-sales-figures/circulating-coins-production
I define "quarters in circulation" as quarters that are "actively" circulating meaning ALL quarters that have not been set aside by collectors or the general public. Yes, coins in sock drawers count because they rarely sit in a sock drawer for over three years and coins in FED storage count as well for the same reason. Even piggy banks no longer tie up coins for very long but these are not "actively circulating.
It's easy to see coins that aren't circulating because they eventually return to active circulation and they'll be higher grade. This especially applies to new and AU coins that go into such long term storage. If there were lots of quarters not circulating it would be easy to find a 1980 quarter in AU but the simple fact is that it's hard to even find a 1995 quarter in AU.
We only imagine there are lots and lots of quarters not circulating and every year the velocity is decreasing as the coin loses purchasing power but there are no large numbers of quarters that haven't been actually changing hands for the last ten years other than coins that have been saved out by collectors and, of course, quarters less than ten years old. Lots of states quarters were saved but this number is probably less than most believe.
Very very few of the old eagle reverse quarters have been saved out in ANY CONDITION. Old rolls go for over $100 and there's almost no demand. Obviously almost no quarters were set aside. You can sit in a coin shop for months and never have someone come in to sell a circulated set of clad quarters because there aren't any. The few that exist were built after 1999.
Missing quarters were not saved and aren't being saved now. They were removed by the FED because they were tired and worn or they were mangled through misadventure. They were recycled in old cars or tossed into Niagara Falls. Old quarters are mostly gone or just worn out but everyone is pretty sure there are billions and billions sitting in piggy banks and safety deposit boxes.
You have said something like this many times before. Once again, it depends upon someone's definition of "many" and "few". I agree that the proportion being hoarded is low, but not the absolute numbers.
Collectors will predominantly save the better or best examples they can find. Previously, I mentioned that even I have a partially filled Whitman folder put together from 1998 to maybe 2000 when I resumed collecting. It's probably late 80's forward but all of the coins are at least AU. The reason I got rid of my "hoard" is because I gave it to my mother, as she needed the money more than I did. Otherwise, I might still have it.
Among collectors, this should be reasonably common where the coins span a wide range of the "better" grades. The coins I have won't find their way any time soon into circulation because it isn't worth the bother. Tens if not hundreds of thousands have almost certainly done likewise.
As for the public, I'd say the proportion is very low who have a small "hoard" in "change jars" but the total set aside is almost certainly not, by my definition.
Lastly, the better explanation for why someone won't see clad quarters come into shops is because collectors know most aren't worth much of anything and the public disproportionately doesn't have a reason to believe it either. Why would hardly anyone try to sell (used) pocket change to a coin shop?
Doing what you describe won't tell anyone anything about the scarcity of any coin. There are at least tens of thousands of different coins that I'd describe as being (extremely) common that either won't come into most coin shops or if so, collectors won't know it.
If you ask someone how old the coins are in his change jar he'll invariably overestimate it. Part of the reason is that coins go in and lots of the quarters come out before it gets dumped in Coinstar. Very Very few coins sit out of circulation for more than three years. Obviously it happens and it's not unusual to see large hoards that are five or ten years old contaminate local circulation for a time. But seeing twenty year old hoards is virtually unprecedented. When such ancient hoards are seen they tend to be very small or too small to even be statistically significant; ie- they might just be random chance rather than representative of a hoard.
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People bring their relative's collections into coin shops when they pass on, This is the number one source of all coins other than classic rarities coming onto the market. They bring all and the shop owner tells them to spend all the moderns. But there are NEVER collections of clad in circulated condition and BU sets are RARELY seen. The sets were never put together. The are no BU eagle reverse rolls of any date at all. There are often mint and proof sets or junk from the home shopping network. There are lots of penny folders for wheaties with the first few years of memorials.
I've see thousands of such collections so I know what is there and what is not there.
These sets change over the long term because collecting is a DEMOGRAPHIC exercise. The last three generations simply didn't save clad quarters so these collections aren't really out there. Of course if you look later in the supply chain some such collectrions do accumulate because there aren't exactly "zero" of much of anything. But NOWHERE in the supply chain can you find an accumulation of nice XF/ AU '72-D quarters. Nowhere in the supply chain will you find more than one single original roll of 1969 quarters. This is just the way it is. The coins of the last 55 years simply went into circulation where the survivors are still churning today because they weren't save intentionally nor inadvertently. Most are simply worn out and banged up. Dealers stock BU coins as a service but there is almost no demand at all.
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I'm not saying clads are rare. I'm saying that they are only readily available because there is no demand. If people ever start putting collections together many of these will be hard to locate in nice attractive F or better. Perhaps the best case in point is the '84 cent. Finding a nice choice BU coin with pleasing surfaces is almost impossible but nobody even seems to know because so few people care.
Most of this is beside the point anyway since the point is all the quarters made in the last 55 years are in circulation other than a small percentage (~2%?) that has seen plenty of circulation in the past and will again before much longer. Quarters don't do much sitting and when they do they don't sit for long.
Part of the reason is that coins go in and lots of the quarters come out before it gets dumped in Coinstar.
My change jar contains cents, nickles, and dimes only. The quarters are put aside for laundry purposes. Not that I don't own a washer and dryer, but my apt doesn't have the connections.
I'm aware that people bring their (Inherited) collections into coins shops. But literally almost no one is going to put together a clad quarter set in grades like VF except to create an artificial challenge for a series which can literally be put together in one day in high quality. It doesn't make any sense because the coins are very common in low to mid-UNC grades and the premium over FV is nominal. There isn't ever going to be the circulated set collecting you describe either because it isn't sufficient to maintain interest. It's on its way to extinction for the predecessor coinage as well.
Going back to the intent of the OP, I'd guess that there must be at least one billion eagle reverse clad quarters out there somewhere that are mostly forgotten. That's about three for every person in the country, a trivial amount. The younger demographic will have few to none because they use cash a lot less and the series was discontinued in 1998. There is also a substantial minority who need every cent they have who won't hold much either. This still leaves a substantial number of the (somewhat) older more affluent who did save this series, they don't need the money, it isn't worth the bother of disposing it and they might have forgotten they even have it.
Where I suspect that my primary disagreement with you exists is with the number and quality set aside by collectors, as in my age or older. If I put together this partial set, many others who are a lot more interested in US coinage than I am did so. It usually isn't and wasn't their primary interest but they did it anyway.
Most clad quarters look like junk. The few roll coins out there are badly struck by worm dies. Mint set coins are generally quite well made but they tend to be scratched up a lot.
But many of the best coins in circulation are quite attractive and will make a far more appealing set to my eyes than anything you can put together in one day.
It is true that most clad quarters aren't extremely tough in nice attractive BU but you will not put it together in a few weeks or a few months and there are some very difficult coins included. Even a Gem set can be 95% finished for very low cost. I've been selling a bunch of nice choice and superb Gems for only ten to twenty five dollars each.
But, again, the low prices are not reflective of supply, they are reflective of demand and this lack of demand is reflective of the attitude that clad is junk. It is reflective of the belief that clad isn't worthy of being collected. I've still got a lot of Gems in safety deposit boxes and I'll be saying the same thing in a few years after it's all sold. Nice attractive old clad is tough in any grade and especially in grades above VG+.
I might add I went to a show recently and was surprised to find I couldn't have put together a BU clad quarter set at any price. There were numerous coins that were sold out at every dealer and the only '82 and '83 issues were well circulated.
Your number sounds about right but a large percentage of these are heavily circulated coins, most of which will circulate again. There are lots of coins in mint sets and a not insignificant number in collections but mint set coins are often tarnished and many collections were literally put together in one day. Wholesalers assemble sets from rolls of mint set coins because this is the way one gets the highest retail price for them. A few of these sets are fairly nice but most are train wrecks.
I doubt there are more than about 3000 collectors who seriously collect them from circulation or in BU. A mere handful have collected them from the early days.
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There are coins out there and i\f there were any demand many would "come out of the woodwork". But to a very real extent the total quantity of nice specimens of many dates would still be highly limited at any price.
This used to be far more common when quarters had actual value. People used them for all sorts of machines like newspaper, telephone, vending, laundry, tolls, etc, etc, etc. Of course even a quarter has a very highly limed value now. Everyone wants dollars and groceries want fins now days. You need a sawbuck just to walk in a fast food joint now.
Even now though don't forget all those older quarters used to stay far more active and have a far higher velocity and they STILL wear the scars to prove it. Later quarters aren't wearing out as universally as the old ones because they sit longer and a few go from place to place that they sit. AU 1969 quarters were gone from circulation about 1980, '74's about 1987, and the '97's are just about gone now after 22 years. This progression will continue.
Once the AU's are gone the XF's are right behind them because the odds of sitting out again used to be very low.
Have you looked on eBay? Your posts indicate you have not because every time I have had this discussion with you in the past, I find every single date/MM combination I search for in "high quality", either in a TPG holder or "raw". These coins aren't hard to find, except using narrow and arbitrary criteria. It's no different when I read on coin forums about how hard it is to find other coins and invariably, it is for sale somewhere right then in a quality the vast majority of collectors will accept.
There is no reason to be surprised that you can't find the coins you want at a show. It's not sufficiently profitable to bother with it. This is equally true of many other low priced coins.
The prices are not low, given the actual relative supply and the low collector preference. If this series sold for what you apparently think it should, it wouldn't be competitive versus a large number of others which have a (much) higher preference.
Supply and demand sets prices so there's no such thing as "too low priced".
I'm merely saying that the supply is exceedingly low compared to what "everyone" thinks. Prices are low because demand is even lower.
You're talking about "rare" coins. I am not.
Interesting discussion. The Takeaway I was looking for from all this is that the W quarters represent an almost infinitesimally small percentage of quarters in circulation. Something like 0.017%. Yet, I’ve been able to find some in rolls from the bank. Which is pretty cool.
The percentage is likely quite a bit higher if looking at “quarters in bank vaults” rather than “quarters in circulation”, especially if you are in/near a known distribution city. I may also be slightly bitter that I haven’t found one yet
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Not sure if anyone is still interested in this thread...I've been pretty busy and not on the site . > @P0CKETCHANGE said:
Yes you are like correct! My count so far is, 4 Lowell, 6 AMP and 2 WIP. So I guess I should count myself lucky.
Re the whole topic of clad quarters...I've noticed an uptick in quality in rolls I've been searching, particularly really nice State Quarter series, but also older dates. Maybe people are jettisoning these back into circ?
Hope you have better luck in your searching CK!
Thank you. I will.
The number of coins in circulation in this area has been pretty stagnant for two years now. There are no new coins being released so they aren't here. Eventually they'll drift over and I'll find a few AU's.
Brand new coins are overrepresented where they are released. Because of low velocity and change jars the coins from the last three years are overrepresented as well.
I have personally been spending lots of uncirculated state quarters recently. I finally decided to start an album, and the way I am filling it is by buying mint sewn bags, searching through it for the single best example, setting any errors/oddities aside, and spending the rest.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
The W's coming out this year will be much harder to find as banks now alert the big boys when and if they get any, Also people are not requiring coins as most people use debit and credit cards for small purchases now.
These W's will be mixed better than last years were and not as many in the rolls.
The credit unions are now charging fees for all these returning coins as their machines are taking a beating.
TR,
...hmmm. How do you know this is going on with the banks and the Koin King Dominators?
I don't think it's what was intended by throwing these into circulation...
Tellers and banks have their favorite customers which they take care of and in turn are taken care of just like the govt does.
The 2020 coins will most likely ( according to reports in coin world ) be distributed differently the year ,or so they say, and more evenly distributed before shipment to distribution centers. Last year you could find multiple W coins in a roll if you found a box with W's in it as they did not evenly distribute them through the whole batch of quarters.They have already screwed up the first series by not having the W's ready in time for the production of the P's and 'sos who knows what is going to happen.
I suppose we will find out Sir. Everyone's looking for an angle, me included
So far I feel I've done fairly well; I've found a dozen of them. Still looking for Lost River, feeling like if I keep at it eventually some will come my way.
A friend who is a very respected (by me at least) private dealer said to me the price will likely rebound on these if they ever get included the coin folders, so they are worth the search in my view.
There are already blank holes in the coin folders and Wizard has folders with space for them I have been told.
I think the key will be the folder being labeled with the W coins...every folder I've ever seen has blank holes, I presume because it would be impractical to customize their punch for partial pages.
But we shall see...maybe someday my dozen or so coins will be worth a lot, maybe just 25 cents. Point for me is, it's fun looking for them and keeps me out of trouble.