Do coins talk through their provenance?

Zoins

We often say if only coins could talk and I got to wondering what coins talk the best. Is the best “talking” done by coins with long and detailed provenance?

CWT1863

I would say yes as I prefer coins/tokens with provenance. I especially like provenance from important collections. Also, the longer the provenance chain the more likely I am to purchase the item. As I am mainly a collector of Civil War tokens, provenance to the collections of Fuld, Tanenbaum, and QDB are my favorites. However, other prominent collectors such as Doug Watson, Wayne Stafford, and many others also attract my attention. When I hold a token from the Tanenbaum or Fuld collection they definitely "talk" more than a token without provenance. Sadly, the Fulds and Steve Tanenbaum both died before I entered the hobby so I never had the chance to meet them. Being able to own tokens from their collections is likely the next best thing. For me, numismatics is an extension of my love of history so having a coin/token with provenance makes it even better.

Zoins

@CWT1863 said:
I would say yes as I prefer coins/tokens with provenance. I especially like provenance from important collections. Also, the longer the provenance chain the more likely I am to purchase the item. As I am mainly a collector of Civil War tokens, provenance to the collections of Fuld, Tanenbaum, and QDB are my favorites. However, other prominent collectors such as Doug Watson, Wayne Stafford, and many others also attract my attention. When I hold a token from the Tanenbaum or Fuld collection they definitely "talk" more than a token without provenance. Sadly, the Fulds and Steve Tanenbaum both died before I entered the hobby so I never had the chance to meet them. Being able to own tokens from their collections is likely the next best thing. For me, numismatics is an extension of my love of history so having a coin/token with provenance makes it even better.

Fuld, Tanenbaum and Bowers are certainly famous names in Civil War Tokens. Are you adding your own name to their provenance?

Aercus

Depends on the provenance but certainly! Would that recent sale for the George Washington eagle have made it as high without that (somewhat speculative) provenance? I would bet the new owner feels history speaking to them through that coin. More down to earth, I definitely feel a connection to early generations of collectors when I see a Col Green or other famous numismatist in the provenance. What made them choose that one? Is it the same coin it was or has it changed? Just things to think about.

CWT1863

@Zoins said:

@CWT1863 said:
I would say yes as I prefer coins/tokens with provenance. I especially like provenance from important collections. Also, the longer the provenance chain the more likely I am to purchase the item. As I am mainly a collector of Civil War tokens, provenance to the collections of Fuld, Tanenbaum, and QDB are my favorites. However, other prominent collectors such as Doug Watson, Wayne Stafford, and many others also attract my attention. When I hold a token from the Tanenbaum or Fuld collection they definitely "talk" more than a token without provenance. Sadly, the Fulds and Steve Tanenbaum both died before I entered the hobby so I never had the chance to meet them. Being able to own tokens from their collections is likely the next best thing. For me, numismatics is an extension of my love of history so having a coin/token with provenance makes it even better.

Those are certainly famous names in Civil War Tokens. Are you adding your own name to their provenance?

I do not add my name to their provenance but when my collection is sold decades from now my name will likely be attached to the provenance. I sold some duplicates from my collection to Steve Hayden about a year ago and it appears he added my name to the provenance of those since someone who purchased one from Steve told me that my name was included in the provenance.

Zoins

@Aercus said:
Depends on the provenance but certainly! Would that recent sale for the George Washington eagle have made it as high without that (somewhat speculative) provenance? I would bet the new owner feels history speaking to them through that coin. More down to earth, I definitely feel a connection to early generations of collectors when I see a Col Green or other famous numismatist in the provenance. What made them choose that one? Is it the same coin it was or has it changed? Just things to think about.

I like the Collector Notes section in Heritage auction descriptions and the owner notes in the PCGS Set Registry. Those add nice history to the coins.

Zoins

@CWT1863 said:

@Zoins said:

@CWT1863 said:
I would say yes as I prefer coins/tokens with provenance. I especially like provenance from important collections. Also, the longer the provenance chain the more likely I am to purchase the item. As I am mainly a collector of Civil War tokens, provenance to the collections of Fuld, Tanenbaum, and QDB are my favorites. However, other prominent collectors such as Doug Watson, Wayne Stafford, and many others also attract my attention. When I hold a token from the Tanenbaum or Fuld collection they definitely "talk" more than a token without provenance. Sadly, the Fulds and Steve Tanenbaum both died before I entered the hobby so I never had the chance to meet them. Being able to own tokens from their collections is likely the next best thing. For me, numismatics is an extension of my love of history so having a coin/token with provenance makes it even better.

Those are certainly famous names in Civil War Tokens. Are you adding your own name to their provenance?

I do not add my name to their provenance but when my collection is sold decades from now my name will likely be attached to the provenance. I sold some duplicates from my collection to Steve Hayden about a year ago and it appears he added my name to the provenance of those since someone who purchased one from Steve told me that my name was included in the provenance.

Steve sometimes, but not always, adds provenance to his auction descriptions.

CWT1863

@Zoins said:

@CWT1863 said:

@Zoins said:

@CWT1863 said:
I would say yes as I prefer coins/tokens with provenance. I especially like provenance from important collections. Also, the longer the provenance chain the more likely I am to purchase the item. As I am mainly a collector of Civil War tokens, provenance to the collections of Fuld, Tanenbaum, and QDB are my favorites. However, other prominent collectors such as Doug Watson, Wayne Stafford, and many others also attract my attention. When I hold a token from the Tanenbaum or Fuld collection they definitely "talk" more than a token without provenance. Sadly, the Fulds and Steve Tanenbaum both died before I entered the hobby so I never had the chance to meet them. Being able to own tokens from their collections is likely the next best thing. For me, numismatics is an extension of my love of history so having a coin/token with provenance makes it even better.

Those are certainly famous names in Civil War Tokens. Are you adding your own name to their provenance?

I do not add my name to their provenance but when my collection is sold decades from now my name will likely be attached to the provenance. I sold some duplicates from my collection to Steve Hayden about a year ago and it appears he added my name to the provenance of those since someone who purchased one from Steve told me that my name was included in the provenance.

Steve sometimes, but not always, adds provenance to his auction descriptions.

He did not include them in the auction description but I was told he wrote my name on the flip. Most of them did not have any provenance as they were ones from when I was just getting started collecting.

BillDugan1959

Provenance is important (and becoming ever more important) in the new age of fakes. But some extra and reliable provenance is simply an extra assurance that a coin was not made in China last week.

Whether or not the provenanced coins are talking on behalf of their illustrious past owners is mostly just a fool's game in your mind. I have one (small time) Eliasberg coin and one Binion silver dollar, and neither gentleman has deigned to acknowledge my existence. Even with very significant amounts of alcohol, I have been unable to conjure them.

Aercus

@BillDugan1959 said:
Whether or not the provenanced coins are talking on behalf of their illustrious past owners is mostly just a fool's game in your mind. I have one (small time) Eliasberg coin and one Binion silver dollar, and neither gentleman has deigned to acknowledge my existence. Even with very significant amounts of alcohol, I have been unable to conjure them.

This calls for some absinthe 😅

BillDugan1959

@Aercus said:

@BillDugan1959 said:
Whether or not the provenanced coins are talking on behalf of their illustrious past owners is mostly just a fool's game in your mind. I have one (small time) Eliasberg coin and one Binion silver dollar, and neither gentleman has deigned to acknowledge my existence. Even with very significant amounts of alcohol, I have been unable to conjure them.

This calls for some absinthe 😅

Well, if the coins are French and before the Great War, I will venture a small Pernod. The coins can be up to the end of 1920.

But I prefer well-hopped beer or ale, especially IPAs.

Relaxation without much damage.

matt_dac

I think there is an interesting cachet to owning a piece of a famous collection, even if a small time example. I have just one (pictured in my profile) from the Eric P. Newman collection:

Aercus

@BillDugan1959 said:

@Aercus said:

@BillDugan1959 said:
Whether or not the provenanced coins are talking on behalf of their illustrious past owners is mostly just a fool's game in your mind. I have one (small time) Eliasberg coin and one Binion silver dollar, and neither gentleman has deigned to acknowledge my existence. Even with very significant amounts of alcohol, I have been unable to conjure them.

This calls for some absinthe 😅

Well, if the coins are French and before the Great War, I will venture a small Pernod. The coins can be up to the end of 1920.

But I prefer well-hopped beer or ale, especially IPAs.

Relaxation without much damage.

Cheers, actually doing a bit of that right now. Jai Alai IPA. Come to think of it, might be just what our predecessors were doing when examining some of their pieces. 🍺

WCC

I only care about provenance if it makes a difference in confirming authenticity. I don't consider any coin collector prominent much less famous strictly from their collecting and don't care who owned it before I did. (As an example, JP Morgan was a coin collector and I'd consider him famous, but it had nothing to do with his collection or numismatics.)

There are coins in my series where the existence of a "high quality" example isn't common knowledge and if one showed up, I'd like to know where it came from.

Coinstartled

The real provenance belongs to the nameless folks that circulated the pieces as they were meant to be.

Though I have paid minor premiums in the past for Eliasberg and Green/Newman coins, they did not design or mint the things so the name on the holder is little more than a marketing illusion,

Zoins

@matt_dac said:
I think there is an interesting cachet to owning a piece of a famous collection, even if a small time example. I have just one (pictured in my profile) from the Eric P. Newman collection:

Your small time EPN coin is still bigger time than mine.

The three below are: (1) top pop 1/0, (2) 10% off center error and (3) EPN coin.

Anyone know if Newman had a lot of details coins?

Elcontador

I just care about the coin. The rest is all marketing to me.

MrEureka

MrEureka

@Coinstartled said:
The real provenance belongs to the nameless folks that circulated the pieces as they were meant to be.

Though I have paid minor premiums in the past for Eliasberg and Green/Newman coins, they did not design or mint the things so the name on the holder is little more than a marketing illusion,

Disagree. Many provenances are important to many people. And everyone values each provenance differently. Also, the value may vary depending on the coin. For example, a Bust Half from Overton’s personal collection would be worth a good premium to me. Another that he bought and sold as just another widget? Zero premium. But that’s just me.

BustDMs

The coins are most important but a NICE coin from a famous collection is a real bonus.

One of my most treasured coins has an interesting provenance for me;
Dosier, Hilgard, Logan, Hilgard, me!

Walkerfan

I love researching the provenance of my better coins.

Some, I can trace and others are a mystery.

edwardjulio

One of my coins has what I consider to be an interesting provenance:
Stickney, Clapp, Eliasberg, Gardner.
The coin is one of my favorites and it is fun to consider the previous owners' thoughts about the coin while in their collection.

Zoins

What are the best ways to keep track of provenance?

Here are some that I think of:

• Auction Descriptions: I like this a lot since auction descriptions generally stay around for a long time and don't change at the major auction houses, Heritage and Stack's. I especially like the owner's notes references.
• CoinFacts Condition Census: I like the condition census here but wish it would have more info. The provenance list is good but it's often short and to the point.
• Set Registry Descriptions: I like these a lot too as these are basically owner's notes to add information to the history of the coin, but these can disappear if a coin is sold out of a collection so is not as permanent as the other to options.