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When is toning on silver coins really damage?
Chessman
Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭
I have heard these damning pronouncements before that a coin is permanently damaged and will not conserve, like this one:
https://imgur.com/lHG2qeG https://imgur.com/LTeq0V6
It graded MS63 at NGC after conservation.
Or this one:
https://imgur.com/GafQ6 https://imgur.com/cynB0
Graded as a lustrous XF45 at NGC.
So they say a coin is dead as far as conservation and grading are conserved and figure wrong.
How about this Bust coin?: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/fWAAAOSwWz1dnkWa/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ICoAAOSwjhJdnkXC/s-l1600.jpg
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First two appear terminal. Third is borderline.
No short answer. Quick Reply:
When you put the coin under a stereo microscope and see that the surface is etched THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to restore its originality. However, Plenty of folks can take a coin as that dime and process it in such a way that they can claim it is "market acceptable" and then straight grade it. That's because (in my years of experience) I can honestly say that MOST folks couldn't tell a TOTALLY ORIGINAL coin from an environmentally damaged coin that has been "conserved!"
PS Some knowledgeable folks consider any toning to be damage. .
Soooo.... if there's an etch, scratch it?
Crickets.
All tarnish is environmental damage.....The degree of damage is important since early stages will bring a profit.... Late stage (or terminal) will usually ruin the value......Cheers, RickO
Thanks Dr. Weimar White
Mr. White shares Ricko's opinion. However. he does not seem to understand that some "colorfully damaged" coins have become very valuable as Ricko posted.
All toning is damage. Dip em all I say.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Leave a smiley when you say that or many will think you are uninformed.
One only needs to scroll through the Peace Dollar section on EBAY. Hideously ruined.
All toning is oxidation but I wouldn't call it all damage.
Light, colorful toning is beautiful and desirable and doesn't alter the coins surface much.
Dark, concentrated, flat toning is unattractive and can ruin the coins surfaces permanently.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
LOL>
You could also argue that all dipping is damage.
One must define damage.
When it is struck, it is (ignoring trace elements) 90% silver and 10% copper =/-. The metal is alloyed, but the individual atoms are not. The individual atoms begin to bind to various other non original elements, be it oxygen, chlorine, surfur, etc. Those atomic bonds, once created, are not easily broken without affecting the coin.
1 atom of silver getting chummy with a trio of Oxygen, and a nitrogen, SiNO3, silver nitrate, will not be noticable. A million of them, not so, but get enough, then you start seeing toning. There are a lot of other molecules, just picking one.
Has is changed? Yes.
Is it easy to undo: No
Does every coin have some amount? Yes
Where is the line? Technically, the first atom that binds with a non silver non copper atom, is damage, but no one is going to follow that concept.
>
FYI -I silver nitrate = AgNO3
Sorry, but my freshman chemistry professor would be very dissappointed.
Yes, old silver changes and reacts to its environment. I collect older coins from the 1794 on. For me, it's all about originality and eye appeal.
Technically, some might consider any toning to be “damage”. However, “damage” to one person can be “beauty” to another.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Tarnish or what some politely call toning is damage to the coin from reaction to the atmosphere, heat, humidity. This is no joke and confirmed by the coin preservation handbook. Many have found ways make money with tarnished coins even shrewd ways inflate their value.
That tarnished coins are tarnished with stickers or even bring a premium will probabably be laughed at by future players like investors pre 89 crash.
Dipping can improve many tarnished coins but no guarantee. While there are toned coins I find attractive this sadly can be an individual taste. From 30 yr experience on bourse - Coins which are brilliant, white, PQ move faster for me.
Over time attractive tarnished coins will become worse. Unless coin holdered in vacuum outlook like the comment my player gets from NPC’s off the street in GTAO “no hope loser.”
The answer for the player is simply to churn his investment.
You do get to pick. View, select, bid, pay, receive and be a happy ole man. 😄
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Does toning serve to stabilize the surface in any way?
@Realone - 'As long as I get to pick, please send my as many high grade damaged classic coins as you can get from HA.com and I will be a happy ole man'.
You beat me to it!
Dave
Toning on coins is like rust on iron. At least that’s what I read. Do I believe that? To a degree. It all depends on the environment that the coin was toned .
I think the bigger question is, will it continue to tone and get darker? I do believe that a coin taken from a coin album and then given a acetone bath before submitting it to be housed in plastic will stop the toning in its tracks. I own a large collection of such coins.
I collect these beautifully toned pieces and very much enjoy their beauty.
Carry on😊
@crazyhounddog Joe, I'll take your 'damaged', gorgeous coins, any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I would say yes. As with any type of corrosion, if the base metal can be isolated from the corrosive atmosphere, the corrosion rate will decrease since reactants from the atmosphere will have to migrate through a passive layer of corrosion products before they can reach unreacted metal. This is how something like stainless steel “works:” a protective chromium oxide film forms, which protects the iron in the steel from the atmosphere.
However, no passive layer of corrosion products will guarantee protection of the base metal. Conditions can change (conditions of the metal, environment, etc.) and corrosion/pitting can still happen.
Corrosion of iron is actually fairly unusual for metals. Generally, metals form a compact, strongly adhering passive oxide film that does a pretty good job of protecting the base metal. This happens because the addition of oxygen to the metal to form the oxide doesn’t cause a large volume increase. In other words, the volume of the metal and the volume of the metal oxide are very similar, so the oxide adheres well.
Iron, however, forms Fe2O3 as one of its oxides. Fe2O3 has a significantly larger volume than pure iron, so the oxide will not strongly adhere to the metal and will crack and spall off. This allows corrosion to continue, since the oxide can’t adequately protect the metal.
So, unless a coin is made of iron, toning on coins is not as akin to rusting on iron as some would argue.
Rusty
Sorry, but you’re mistaken, that is Ira (Allen), not Rusty on the obverse.😉
But more seriously, while it’s been more than a few years, that coin looks very familiar to me. And whether or not it’s the one I’m thinking of, I like it!
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It’s the first coin I got from you!
😀
.> @lcoopie said:
I thought you got that one from me, though I didn’t remember it was the first.😊
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Show me a 200 year old coin that's white and bright and I'll pass on it 100% of the time. Those coins shouldn't look like that.
What terrible damage!