Awesome Double Denomination Error
Zoins
Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
Just ran across one which is among the most impressive double denomination errors I've seen. I love how the word "LIBERTY" on the quarter shows up on the Lincoln cent field.
Seems like these normally sell in the $15,000 range so they have quite a bit of interest.
It reminds me of the cent on Sacagawea double denomination error as well. These two would be great as a set. Are there others like these?
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Comments
While visually awesome, it probably was not an "error" at all. You know what I mean? This kind of critter screams "intentional!"
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
It may have been intentional by the person striking it but that doesn't make it any less awesome to me.
I'm also guessing it was unintentional by the Mint, for both creation and release. Somewhere along the line, Mint polices failed, likely more than once.
I would be curious for an explanation other than intentional for how this happened.
There are approximately 6-8 of 2000 cent on New Hampshire quarters known.
It's hard to see how many are slabbed by PCGS because CoinFacts just goes to the non-Error listing. It would be great to have pops and CoinFacts pages for errors like this.
Calling @FredWeinberg @ErrorsOnCoins and @dcarr!
Anyone have an explanation on how these could have been created and they could have left the Mint?
I would assume they were created by the same people wo made the 2000 Sacagawea / State Quarter mules. Someone goofed around with Mint equipment and smuggled the results out of the building (I believe several mules came out in the oil pans of forklifts), with one or two salted into a production bin to give the veneer of legitimacy.
I group coins like this with the pile of SMS and Proof errors from 1967-70 that were sold through the State of CA after being abandoned in a safety deposit box. They are undoubtedly Mint products, but because of the shady circumstances surrounding them, they are of limited appeal to me.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Ask Ricko as he would probably be right on this one
The 2000 Sacagawea / State Quarter mules look pretty awesome, as does the cent on Sacagawea double denomination. It could be neat to have a collection of these.
Would it be fair to say these have about the same legitimacy as the 1913 Liberty Head nickels which also have questions of their origins and release?
Yeah that’s not an error.
Calling that an error is like drinking 20 beers and then saying I got drunk on accident.
Tell that to PCGS
There are 8 of each known (Cent onto Quarter, Cent onto Sac. Dollar)
They all came out in pairs.
I sold a Cent on a Sac at the ANA in Chicago. Had the pair on
display in my showcase.
Yes, they were made on purpose, not by a minting error.
Yes, they are still Mint Errors to me and many others.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
I'd happily have one, but they still bother me.
It represents crossing a line that if taken much farther would make all errors of the same era much less valuable and significant.
How is it possible to struck a quarter with cent dies?
$hady to $ay the lea$t...
1) A struck quarter could not possibly make it through the automatic feeding system on a press set up to strike cents.
2) If a press that was set up to feed quarters had cent dies installed in it, it is still unlikely that the quarter could make it through the feeding mechanism because a struck quarter is larger in diameter than a blank quarter (and that size difference would be rejected by the feeding mechanism).
So my conclusion is that it had to be intentionally made by manually placing the quarter in the press and then manually removing it after the over-strike. There would be no incentive for someone to take the risks and do this inside the US Mint unless they also had plans to try and smuggle it out (for monetary gain).
There is another possibility to consider, and that is that the over-strike was done outside the US Mint using false dies. The broad-striking has the effect of making it more difficult to ascertain the authenticity of the over-strike. An inspection in person would be necessary.
While technically, it was a mint produced coin, the extremely suspicious circumstances will always follow coins like this. It will probably continue to trade for decent money, but the "WOW" factor will be reduced. Just look at the negative comments the struck on nail piece brought when posted on this forum.
Many collectors love the feedback they get when showing a fantastic coin to others (just look at the rarities members post and the comments they receive). This coin is going to have the stigma of illegitimacy following it around.
See line #3 (3rd paragraph) in my post above
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
I always wonder if counterfeiters start with a real US coin and add their fake on top to make an impressive 'error'
Neither can a nail, yet one was slabbed by PCGS...... that decision still makes me cringe.
There are stories for smuggling these out for monetary gain. These, along with the cent on dollars and the quarter / dollar mules.
While fakes could be made, one thing to consider is that if they were fake, do these exist for any other dates? I haven't seen others but @FredWeinberg would know more. Given the success of these, I doubt the producers of fakes could resist making more.
This is part of collecting. Just imagine how popular the 1913 Liberty Head nickel would be without any questions over its legitimacy.
Those are not 'false die' overstrikes.
They were made on purpose at the Philly Mint.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Yep... Intentional overstrikes...thanks Fred.... would like to know how they got them out of the mint though. Cheers, RickO
Intentionally made, by a government employee collecting a paycheck, using US government owned equipment for non official uses, with US government money "stolen" for that use, and then smuggling it out for financial gain.
A lot of fraud, theft, misused of government property going on.
I would not support criminal activity against the US taxpayer of this type, but some people have no problem being part of that side of the world.
If made outside the US mint with some sort of privately owned or retired dies, I have no problem with that (fantasy coin).
....just like the 1913 Liberty Head Nickels.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Mr. Carr pointed out what should be obvious and Fred confirmed the fact, A quarter does not fit into the press striking cents. Additionally, I find it hard to believe that the impression of the cent could be so strong without bending the quarter. Next, since these were made on purpose, the dies for the cent better be all the same die state.
Finally, in the "old" days, coins that were fraudulently made were not certified. While things have changed (coins on screws, etc) these coins may eventually be subject to confiscation if too much attention is drawn to their existence.
Best way to make them. Happens all the time. Back in the 1970's, most were Lincoln cents and most were double-strikes and off-centers.
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Christopher Walken and the watch in the movie "Pulp Fiction"' come to mind.
Skip, if they were dated 2018 or 2019, they would
probably be of interest to the Mint Police.
Since they are 18 years old, it's an 'old event', and
I wouldn't be worried (I am not worried) about confiscation
at this point.
I actually showed one of them, and a screw struck onto
a Cent, to two Mint Police officers at the Denver ANA
three years ago - they loved seeing it, laughed, and said
'show us some more'
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
The mint police are cool folks. It's the guys at the top of government organizations that are the problem. 1933 gold coins? Not the same exact thing but...
BTW, if I worked at the mint in a position of power, I'd
make the "moonlight minter" look like an armature!
.....and if I were Duke of the Treasury, I'd hire you !
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
I suggest a "workshop" at Dcarrs shop
I could be the "Treasury Joker."
This is available $12,000, not $15,000, ad is from one of my two favorite error coin dealers:
https://sullivannumismatics.com/coin/pcgs-1c-2000-lincoln-cent-2000-new-hampshire-quarter-ms64
Over the last 4 decades I've seen items like this appreciate in value. I used to shy away from intentional errors, and their sell prices continued to rise. Just like 1913 Liberty V Nickels have done. Realizing this, I've added a few outlandish intentional errors from USA, Malaysia, GB, Canada, Mexico, ... to my collection when opportunity and budget align.
Lindy
Aren't you already?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
It is both amazing and sad... that these intentional errors ... recognized...are both sought and disparaged...Cheers, Ricko
Yes, it’s being sold by Sullivan, one of my favorite and “go-to” error dealers. I used the going rate price in their description as I didn’t want this to come across as a sale post.
Anyone familiar with "Farley's Follies" in the world of stamps?
Google it.
Postmaster General Farley (possibly in league with FDR) printed lots of special error stamps.
When discovered, they had to print LOTS more.
Maybe this would be good again.
A black eye on errors?
Maybe.
One question I have is how did the host coin (New Hampshire quarter) develop that type of tone, inside the mint, prior to the over-strike ? It looks like it was a slightly circulated coin prior to the over-strike. And if that was that case then how did a coin from circulation get back into the Mint and be over-struck (or was the over-strike done outside the Mint) ?
I suppose anything is possible. There is a known (intentionally-made) modern proof Washington quarter struck on a worn 1900 Barber Quarter.
But I am a little suspicious of the apparent substandard sharpness of Lincoln's head.
The top PCGS Coin Facts photos show more toning than the Sullivan slab photos which show very little toning. I wonder how visible the toning is in hand and if it is the differences in the photo are the results of lighting.
Since the coin was struck on purpose at the mint...nothing matters about the under coin.
Think about it... Security is in place where things are made anywhere. I worked at the Smithsonian in DC. After a while, I came and went w/o my briefcase ever being checked again and I would not consider myself anything but a flunky! I could have removed anything under my control or in places I had access to in the collections. Heck, I learned that at one time long ago, the curators would toss inferior specimens of large submissions into the dumpster!
Do you think the Chairman of a TPGS is checked? Do you think the guard checks the Mint Superintendent? Do you think the guard checks his buddy making the coins when he is in on it?
If you were a Mint employee making this piece in 2000, why would you risk smuggling a circulated NH quarter into the Mint when there would already be many thousands of uncirculated NH quarters inside the Mint to choose from ?
Because if you took a quarter from inside the mint then you' d be stealing.....
Outlandish , but not impossible
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1981-CENT-on-NICKEL-planchet-UNIQUE-and-supposedly-IMPOSSIBLE/251377244021?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
Three more outlandish errors ...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-Lincoln-Cent-Struck-Onto-2000-P-New-Hampshire-Quarter-PCGS-MS-65-Rare/274042463849?hash=item3fce342669:g:APYAAOSwZQ9dm5jX
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-Lincoln-Cent-Struck-Onto-2000-P-Sacagawea-Dollar-PCGS-MS-63-Extremely-Rare/274042455543?hash=item3fce3405f7:g:NqwAAOSwC-5dm5ZX
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1981-Lincoln-Cent-Struck-70-Off-Center-On-A-1979-SBA-Dollar-PCGS-MS-62-UNIQUE/274042406925?hash=item3fce33480d:g:j8oAAOSwhfNdm4yX
Hmm... who do we know that would have the ability to create a realistic looking fake die, and over-strike a real coin with it?
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
Mint sport. Over time, coming up with five different metals for these "patterns" wasn't enough, so here's what you get. If you're into this sort of thing, that is.
edited to add...
I like the "Mint Error" designation. As if.
All baloney.
Not anything I would pursue.
I agree. Hard to take errors seriously when this sort of stuff is legitimized.