Circulated Type, CAC, Problems, Rant
chesterb
Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭✭
I am a US type coin collector focused on 18th and 19th centuries. I buy primarily through respected dealers and rarely through Heritage or eBay. Most of my focus is on better vs. the common dates and I try to buy CAC stickered coins to help maintain the value of my "investment".
I'm tired of receiving coins that have the right color but contain tons of hairlines. Under fluorescent or some LED's these hairlines aren't seen but under bright, direct light or my halogen 'coin-viewing' lights, they stick out like a sore thumb. In my mind, these could be from slides; poor storage like a flip where they slide around; or even from a prior cleaning. Some have green gunk hidden in the recesses. I would prefer to keep this a general conversation and not show examples as that can steer the discussion by focusing on those examples.
Hopefully this comment won't open a can of worms but I wouldn't think CAC would sticker these because these hairlines can be an eyesore. Maybe they are more lenient because I am choosing better dated coins with lower CAC pops. Also, why are they stickering coins with the green gunk?
In the future, I need to make sure my dealer friends know what I'm looking for. It's hard to find those truly nice circulated coins that are fresh, original and have not been too damaged by prior handling. Does anyone else seem to have this issue and what do others look for in these types of coins?
Comments
CAC isn't any more reliable than any of the TPG's. They make their fair share of mistakes as well. There have been many examples posted here. My feelings about CAC just went down a couple of notches. Why pay almost as much to have one person give their one sided view of a coin as you pay to have it graded? Oh let's all only collect what JA likes!
@chesterb I think your last paragraph sums it up. CAC stickers A and B coins for the grade (in their opinion), but that can mean many things. For circ coins, they've stickered coins with hairlines, scratches, stains, rim bumps, etc because ON BALANCE, they believe the coin is A or B.
However, many collectors have certain things they just don't want to see on a coin. With me it's rim bumps. Any rim bump even on a very circulated coin is a disqualifier. For you it sounds like it's hairlines. No problem there, but you should not expect CAC or a TPG to be as sensitive to the issue as you are. As you said, it's important to tell the dealers you're buying from what you like so they won't send you obviously unsuitable coins.
In the end, you can cover the coin in stickers from 100 different numismatic luminaries, but the collector who is actually buying the coin always needs to pass final judgement.
Agree but it's not about only collecting what JA likes...it's about collecting what Chesterb likes. The reason I like the sticker is because the market dictates that coins with stickers are easier to sell/trade right now. That may change but it is what it is. I'm just tired of seeing coins with hairlines and think they should factor it into their decision-making. Maybe they do but I find them ugly.
Hairlines are part of the grade. It’s factored in. All coins of this type have issues. If you are hung up on hairlines don’t buy ones that bug you. Everyone has their thing
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Exactly. Everybody gets to decide what they like. So, if JA is okay with hairlines, why would that be a problem?
Call the dealer and discuss the coin.
Cac means, "they'd buy it as a.."
Some buyers are more stringent,
some less
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
This is a gross misunderstanding of both TPG's an CAC. As mentioned above, hairlines (friction not cleaning) are market acceptable and factored into the grades. It could be 68 CAC and still have a hairline or two. If it bothers you, just don't buy them. You are NOT being forced to buy what JA likes or anything else.
It is not a mistake to CAC a coin that is in 65 that has a couple hairlines. It is affirming the market acceptable grade.
Correct. Pcgs 66’s can also have hairlines.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I haven't noticed any difference with my sales of Barber Halves. While I don't submit any coins to CAC I have quite a few in my inventory that already had the bean when I bought them!
A PCGS66 can have metal flow lines but should NOT have hairlines.
Another comment I would to make is this: Everyone goes on about JA will buy the coins he stickers. I seriously doubt anyone on this board would sell for the prices he pays. Keep in mind JA is a wholesaler. That means at least 2 people need to make a profit before a collector gets a shot at the coin...JA and the dealer he sold the coin to!
MS/PR-66
Well struck with a few marks or hairlines, not in focal areas.
https://www.pcgs.com/grades#grade66
Just an FYI...this post isn't about MS/PR coins.
Didn't think it was. But if hairlines are allowed on MS66 coins, then it would seem to be obvious they'd be allowed on circulated coins too, no?
If you are buying, searching for or prefer circulated coins then finding hairlines should be quite common. Circulated coins often end up with hairlines because of the circulation that they experienced. Even the most subtle, dove-like grey coin that appears to have evenly worn and smooth surfaces in an image can be found to have hairlines when a loupe is taken out. I would suggest that if these coins bother you that you avoid them and continue the search for acceptable pieces.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
When I go in and touch up 100’s of pieces of furniture in a hotel, I do it in the light that is normal for the hotel room.
I guarantee no guest will get on their hands and knees 6” away with a flashlight to check the finish, thus I state, my work passes the “walk by test”.
One can take the either of the same paths with respect to viewing coins. You will find what you wish to see with a circulated coin. Just my opinion.
This is mostly true. The "purchase guarantee" should NOT be a reason to prefer CAC. You can always sell any slabbed coin at the "sight unseen" price, but that is not usually the best price.
As for the JA price, sometimes it is the "right price" but not in all categories. If you have a coin that would sell for $100k at auction with a 20% BP included, you would only realize $80k. But it is possible that JA would pay $85k to wholesale at $90k to a dealer who has a private treaty buyer at $100k.
Even for cheaper stuff, a wholesaler makes money buy having the right "rolodex" so they may be able to pay $50 for a coin to place it at $55 when it is not efficient for you yourself to sell it an get $50.
JAs bids on Morgan dollars are quite competitive, for example. On the other hand, he has no posted bids last I looked for classic commems as he is not trying to make a market in them.
I have sold coins directly to CAC/JA for prices I thought were very strong.
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
If a coin is graded circulated, then it will almost always have very fine hairlines.... perhaps only a couple, but they will be there when examined under the proper light and angles....Cheers, RickO
Plastic, Stickers, TPGs, many need but a few will disagree!!!
Buy what you like and like what you buy.
I appreciate everyone's response. I guess just for some clarification. I'm not talking a couple or a few hairlines when viewed under a glass. I'm talking many hairlines that cover the surfaces of both sides that can be seen by the naked eye. I can't tell if it's from a prior cleaning or just improper storage and handling. I've been doing this for awhile so I know what to look for. I just have seen coins with many hairlines stickered by CAC and it's disappointing when they come to me.
Don’t buy sight unseen!
If you are looking close enough, the "hairlines" will increase as the grade decreases.
Mebbe should call them "WEARLINES."
This is the answer, and to make sure you have return privilege. You don't have to accept everything, just what you like. I view CAC as an expensive obstacle, I am glad that I purchased most of my coins before CAC. There are great original coins with and without stickers.
NCWS
Nice Coin Without Sticker.
I'll try that on my next sale.
Although the images don't show them, when viewed under a bright halogen lamp, this one has hairlines, ramdomly oriented typical of what happens during circulation. It beaned:
This one has hairlines, oriented parallel to each other, typical of what happens during cleaning with a cloth. Under a bright halogen lamp, one can see that the luster does not rotate through but instead large areas on both sides flash while rotating, because of the parallel hairlines caused by the cleaning. It did not bean:
For this one under the halogen lamp, it is very hard to identify ramdom oriented circulation hairlines because of the heavy patina, they are there but subtle and not noticeable except under the brightest of halogen light . It beaned:
All mid-grade circs. All look great. JA liked the two with natural hairlines. Point is, if you go high enough in lighting brightness for mid-grade 19th century US silver, you would be hard pressed to not find hairlines. With a incandescent bulb, LEDs, or fluorescent, you likely won't see the hairlines on any of them. The key is were they obtained through circulation or through human intervention. In my experience, hairlines are normal on mid-grade circulated coins from the 19th century, even those JA likes, because it happens when a coin is in circulation. Good luck finding them........
Best, SH
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PS, one can do the same exercise in XF and AU.......
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
It's a learned skill, the "reading" of a coin's surfaces and applying expertise, logic, and Occam's razor concepts to what we see.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Thank you for the examples and explanations @spacehayduke that was informative!
If your spending a considerable amount of money I would suggest you buy sight seen at a show.