Pcgs does restoration on coins. What about coins that have been cleaned.

I submitted a peace dollar to pcgs for grading. It came back unc but cleaned. Will pcgs restore this item back to its precleaned state or at least to a point where it can be given a grade.

Comments

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 8,667 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Perhaps some time in pocket change may make it appear "uncleaned"...but normally once the damage is done...it's done.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_



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  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,690 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Put it into a pocket and the best you might get is AU. MS can never be achieved again.

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 7,302 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hope that not a lot was paid for the coin (we can pretty much estimate grading costs) but an option is to sell it as is and use the $ to buy a slabbed P$.

    Something to think about.

  • The coin was not that expensive. I figure it might be worth half of book. Will actually try the pocket solution and see what happens. Appreciate you guys taking time out of your day to answer my question. The real problem is trying to figure how to tell its been cleaned. trying to educate my self on fakes and cleaning of coins. I can not tell that it has been cleaned. Between the fakes and cleaned coins I am not feeling good about this hobby. I guess slabs from now on but then they have fakes also.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,895 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Larrob37 said:
    The coin was not that expensive. I figure it might be worth half of book. Will actually try the pocket solution and see what happens. Appreciate you guys taking time out of your day to answer my question. The real problem is trying to figure how to tell its been cleaned. trying to educate my self on fakes and cleaning of coins. I can not tell that it has been cleaned. Between the fakes and cleaned coins I am not feeling good about this hobby. I guess slabs from now on but then they have fakes also.

    Once you learn a few simple things - especially how to make the coin "light dynamic" (a terrific term "coined" by J.P. Martin), you'll be able to identify most coins that are not 100% original from a foot away using just your eyes.

    For starters, see if there are some answers in this forum's archives under "Cleaning." Next, examine actual coins in major TPGS slabs graded MS-65 and higher.

  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 4,585 ✭✭✭✭✭

    you can't, ever, un-clean a coin

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 8,712 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Larrob37 said:
    The coin was not that expensive. I figure it might be worth half of book. Will actually try the pocket solution and see what happens. Appreciate you guys taking time out of your day to answer my question. The real problem is trying to figure how to tell its been cleaned. trying to educate my self on fakes and cleaning of coins. I can not tell that it has been cleaned. Between the fakes and cleaned coins I am not feeling good about this hobby. I guess slabs from now on but then they have fakes also.

    There are fewer fake slabs. But one of the things that is PRICELESS is having a dealer network of people that you trust. I would never knowingly sell a fake slab to my customers and, if it accidentally happened, I would take it back and eat the loss. I also only buy expensive coins from people I know and trust. Even in a digital age, relationships still matter.

    As to "cleaning", you need to decide how YOU feel about cleaning. If you can't tell and you like the coin, is that a bad thing? The cleaning thing is one of those things that can turn you in knots. There are hundreds if not thousands of slabbed bust halves that are obviously cleaned but are deemed "market acceptable". A similarly cleaned Washington quarter probably would not get anything but a details holder.

    In the end, you need to understand the market but you don't have to be a slave to it. Buy what you like and use your market knowledge to estimate value. Find sources that you trust and avoid those that are suspicious. 99.9999% of coins are not rare. Another one will come along if you have any question at all about the one you are looking at.

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 19,697 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One can not un pickel a pickel

  • rickoricko Posts: 68,384 ✭✭✭✭✭

    With each coin, you will learn something... sometimes of value, sometimes just an interesting point in numismatics...There is no magic pill, experience and research are required. We have all made mistakes, they are part of the learning process. There are books available on cleaning and counterfeits... Good luck on your journey... Cheers, RickO

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 16,014 ✭✭✭✭✭

    While you can't unclean coin, you can cause it to be worn to the point that all evidence of cleaning is worn away. Whether this means wearing an otherwise uncirculated coin down to AU or AG depends on the severity of the cleaning. Then you have to wait for the coin to become dirty again. Needless to say, a TPG will play no part in any of this.

  • Thanks again for the imput. I really like the coin and have no plans to sell this coin or any others i have. Somebody will be real happy when i move on to scraping gold off the streets of heaven. Meanwhile what is the problem with cleaning coins. Why do people frown on it. Especially when it makes the coin look better. I know that was the first thing i learned as a young collector. Dont clean the coins. we dont like dirty cars. We dont buy dirty clothes. Would you buy a window glass that had a big scratch. Never understood the logic.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,895 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Let's dispel a ridiculous "Old Wives Tale" or "Crack-pot numismatic myth" here once and for all! Does anyone have an estimate or wish to take a guess on how long it takes to carry a pocketful of cleaned coins around until they no longer appear cleaned. Anyone wish to take a guess on how long it would take to naturally circulate a Morgan dollar down to AU-55?

    Never mind, I have a better idea. o:)

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pe haps coin collecting is the wrong hobby for you?

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 16,014 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    Let's dispel a ridiculous "Old Wives Tale" or "Crack-pot numismatic myth" here once and for all! Does anyone have an estimate or wish to take a guess on how long it takes to carry a pocketful of cleaned coins around until they no longer appear cleaned. Anyone wish to take a guess on how long it would take to naturally circulate a Morgan dollar down to AU-55?

    Never mind, I have a better idea. o:)

    I never said it was feasible, only possible.

  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 18,968 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Larrob37 said:
    Thanks again for the imput. I really like the coin and have no plans to sell this coin or any others i have. Somebody will be real happy when i move on to scraping gold off the streets of heaven. Meanwhile what is the problem with cleaning coins. Why do people frown on it. Especially when it makes the coin look better. I know that was the first thing i learned as a young collector. Dont clean the coins. we dont like dirty cars. We dont buy dirty clothes. Would you buy a window glass that had a big scratch. Never understood the logic.

    I think there are a few things to consider. First, coins are a display of art and history. Some of that history is in the patina a coin acquires, and it's lost when you clean the coin. Second, a distinction has to be drawn about what cleaning is. It is generally market acceptable to dip off a light patina (or even some heavier toning) without rubbing the coin. Done right, this can restore the coin to a just-minted look, with lustre preserved (though sometimes a bit diminished). Many still don't like this, but a dipped uncirculated Morgan dollar doesn't look nearly as out of place as a cleaned, circulated one. Taking it a step further, what we call cleaning is really when a coin's surface is cleaned harshly, which imparts hairlines and can deposit/not remove dirt from areas protected by the devices. This changes how light reacts with the coin, whether it's impairing existing lustre or perhaps adding odd, fake lustre to a coin that didn't have any to begin with (due to normal wear). This is why cleaning is damage, not just a chance in appearance.

    People would approach washing cars differently if the paint were permanently ruined when washed. If your clothes got holes or threads pulled by doing laundry, we might look at things differently. And then there's a question of just what is dirty. Hygiene tells us to shower and wash our clothes, and car washes preserve paint life (with wax, etc.). While a coin may be "dirty," it's not the same visceral dirt that leads us to clean other things.

    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 2,839 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What is the coin? Can you show us photos? Maybe we can point you to see why PCGS called it cleaned.
    The only Peace Dollars I think would be worth slabbing at an AU level are 1921, 1928, and 1934-S. There's no need to throw good money after bad here.

    Collector, occasional seller


  • I am new here so now sure how the pics will turn out

  • @airplanenut that explains a lot. I know I like coins mainly because of history and who may have bought something with this same coin. It just never concerned me about the patina but I can see how most people want it preserved. I would prefer a nicer looking coin. That's why I am not a fan of rainbow toning. You not really seeing the coin but rather the colors in the toning. I am not concerned with loss of value of this coin because its cleaned. I just don't want to leave a bunch of junk to my heirs. They may not appreciate the history or beauty of a coin and will probably sell them.

  • KkathylKkathyl Posts: 3,168 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you see a grayish toning to a coin it should throw up a read flag. Also you can look around the high points of the coin and see if they have a rounded look. Level of cleaning is tricky and if you get a real good deal be suspect up front. The Peace dollar picture to me looks way to clean to be that old. The rims are very sharp and edge inward is rounded. The Vertical lines on the observe are not natural as the metal should flow out as it is struck. You also should see some sort of skin on that coin. To Me the rims are a dead giveaway sign. But I will say Peace dollars are a tough group because the strike is weak on may. Looking at the Lettering you can see it was flattened and pushed down of sorts. I am new too. It takes time. You can always play with circulated pocket change and clean them to see what it looks like.

    Everyone has bought cleaned coins when new and anyone who says they have not is fooling themselves.

  • Thanks Kkathyl for the info and education. After looking at things you pointed out I see the red flags but honestly it looks like a great coin but that may be only because it was cleaned. I am not upset that it was cleaned but am upset that person sold it to me without telling me. No I don't go around with rose colored glasses. I guess I need to be more careful when buying. I have seen plenty of peace dollars that look this pretty. Maybe they were all cleaned. Never the less I still like coin.

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 2,839 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The pictures are OK. From what I can see it appears that your coin has parallel hairline scratches. These are damage caused by someone wiping the coin with a cloth or something similar. It doesn't take much to disturb the surfaces of an otherwise well preserved coin. Unfortunately this appears to be one that could make a gem grade if not for the surface hairlines.
    If you look at this coin under a single point light, or even a flashlight you should be able to tilt it in such a way that these small scratches become very apparent because of the way they reflect the light.

    See this thread by @Insider2
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1025439/how-much-do-the-hairlines-on-this-coin-affect-its-grade/p1

    Collector, occasional seller

  • I have a question about dipping. What is dipping. What product do you use for dipping. What is purpose of dipping. Does It affect value of coin especially if done wrong.

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 2,839 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Dipping" is the process of chemically "cleaning" a coin and is only to be used on uncirculated coins. It is usually done to remove unattractive toning(tarnish) or haze and doesn't involve any abrasive. If done correctly it will improve the eye appeal of a coin, if done wrong it can ruin a coin. I stay away from it but it is generally acceptable to dip a silver coin back to white. My understanding is that if a coin is dipped too many times it will lose its mint luster and become a dull unc, and nobody wants that.

    There are plenty of Peace Dollars out there that look like they did the day they were minted. The fact that they are old doesn't mean they can't look nice without "help", these just weren't used all that much so a lot of them spent decades sitting in vaults.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • YQQYQQ Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭✭

    Somehow I find it hard and difficult to understand WHY:
    If a coin is cleaned or dipped, it is called CLEANED and is frowned on.(even though often it is not proven and is justa TPG's way out to make up his mind,
    However, if a very similar coin is "preserved" ( with usual the same or more chemicals and methods ) by a TPG or other "professional",
    it receives usually a straight or better grade??????????????
    It just baffles my mind.

    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 28,940 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cleaning looks minor just hairlined on Ms Liberty and in front of her face.

    Someone might still desire that as an impaired UNC for an album.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!






  • Here are more pics of 34 peace with different angles.

  • MoldnutMoldnut Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭✭

    @Broadstruck said:
    Cleaning looks minor just hairlined on Ms Liberty and in front of her face.

    Someone might still desire that as an impaired UNC for an album.

    I agree, I’m not sure I would put that in my pocket just for the sake of trying to minimize something and make it worse.

    Derek

    EAC 6024
  • DollarAfterDollarDollarAfterDollar Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To answer your original question "can a cleaned coin straight grade" the answer is yes, however, that depends on the nature of the cleaning. If the coin has been rubbed on or polished up then there's no chance. If however it's been dipped, depending on the level of damage that results an acetone bath may resolve any issues.

    The coin you're discussing looks hairlined and polished. If that's accurate, it's a lost cause.

    If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,895 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019 6:16PM

    @YQQ said:
    Somehow I find it hard and difficult to understand WHY:
    If a coin is cleaned or dipped, it is called CLEANED and is frowned on.(even though often it is not proven and is justa TPG's way out to make up his mind,
    However, if a very similar coin is "preserved" ( with usual the same or more chemicals and methods ) by a TPG or other "professional",
    it receives usually a straight or better grade??????????????
    It just baffles my mind.

    You are retracing my thought process as a beginner which you are not. It is very simple and became the basis for everything we taught. The "key" that I used back then was the word "PROPERLY." Think about it as I did. If I dip a coin "properly" so no one can tell for sure that it was not original, that was good cleaning (back then there was no such word as "conservation." That came years later and I'll credit Susan Maltby, a conservator, for introducing the word to numismatics.) If I dip a coin and leave any evidence of the cleaning, that was bad cleaning. LOL. The exact same chemicals can be used. **Most of the improper cleaning results from leaving out steps, using the wrong chemicals, failing to neutralize the chemicals, and poor methods/materials for drying the coin.

    PS Most folks who dip coins are lucky they don't ruin more of them. :(

    PPS Even a "properly" conserved coin done by an individual who is an experienced coin cleaner can "blow-up" and be ruined on occasion. :(

  • drfishdrfish Posts: 844 ✭✭✭

    Car washing analogy- wax and a soft cloth=good. Sandpaper = bad.
    I like to examine coins tilting the coin back and forth under a good light in a darkened room. The parallel scratches from a harsh cleaning are pretty evident. Die polish can be confused with harsh cleaning (the lines are raised from the coins surface ) and is another subject to research.

  • New here, and am following this discussion trying to understand cleaning vs. conservation and it's effect on the coins. Do conservators possibly use a different method than chemical or physical contact to maintain integrity? I'm thinking possibly using one of the newer, ultra-sonic cleaners that just use distilled water, etc.?

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 40,710 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just add dirt !

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 2,839 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BSquared said:
    New here, and am following this discussion trying to understand cleaning vs. conservation and it's effect on the coins. Do conservators possibly use a different method than chemical or physical contact to maintain integrity? I'm thinking possibly using one of the newer, ultra-sonic cleaners that just use distilled water, etc.?

    There are some here who use ultrasonic. I'm not sure what the procedure is for that.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,895 ✭✭✭✭✭

    IMO, you cannot have a fully equipped conservation area w/o an Ultrasonic cleaner. Branson makes several Professional type models.

  • @Insider2 said:
    IMO, you cannot have a fully equipped conservation area w/o an Ultrasonic cleaner. Branson makes several Professional type models.

    Thanks for the suggestion. Seems like those can even be ordered from Walmart. I didn't realize they had such a wide offering.

  • lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,260 ✭✭✭✭

    Perhaps post a photo here before a costly submission.

  • which model cleaner u recommend for coins

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