@Insider2 said: @MFeld said: "Please don’t use the term “real grade”. That is an illusory term, which can mislead those who don’t know better. Surely, you can come up with a more meaningful and realistic way of saying what you (hopefully) really mean."
Perhaps the grade in a Heritage Auction is the "real" grade. Oops, Heritage doesn't grade coins anymore. They market slabs that are graded by other folks.
News flash, this comes pretty close: @Baley said: "[A] consensus grade by someone(s) who stand by their Opinion with a bid to buy the coin at stated grade/price"
Grading is a ranking system based on the appearance of a coin. Unfortunately, there are too many variables in the modern "market" grading system. That's why I can understand how hard it is for even knowledgeable numismatists to understand the meaning of "real." The fact that coins have an "actual grade" would be a better way to express a "real" grade based only on its condition of preservation. That way when I say that many coins graded low MS today have an actual grade of AU. It is not hard to understand. So you can see that IMO the only IMAGINARY THING GOING ON with regard to grading is in the commercial market and auction companies.
A coin is either ungraded or graded by someone. In the latter instance, there is an assigned grade. If you say that the assigned grade is the “real” grade, that implies that there is necessarily an incorrect grade and a correct grade. I believe history has shown that’s not nearly always the case.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Insider2 said: @MFeld said: "Please don’t use the term “real grade”. That is an illusory term, which can mislead those who don’t know better. Surely, you can come up with a more meaningful and realistic way of saying what you (hopefully) really mean."
Perhaps the grade in a Heritage Auction is the "real" grade. Oops, Heritage doesn't grade coins anymore. They market slabs that are graded by other folks.
News flash, this comes pretty close: @Baley said: "[A] consensus grade by someone(s) who stand by their Opinion with a bid to buy the coin at stated grade/price"
Grading is a ranking system based on the appearance of a coin. Unfortunately, there are too many variables in the modern "market" grading system. That's why I can understand how hard it is for even knowledgeable numismatists to understand the meaning of "real." The fact that coins have an "actual grade" would be a better way to express a "real" grade based only on its condition of preservation. That way when I say that many coins graded low MS today have an actual grade of AU. It is not hard to understand. So you can see that IMO the only IMAGINARY THING GOING ON with regard to grading is in the commercial market and auction companies.
A coin is either ungraded or graded by someone. In the latter instance, there is an assigned grade. If you say that the assigned grade is the “real” grade, that implies that there is necessarily an incorrect grade and a correct grade. I believe history has shown that’s not nearly always the case.
What?
Imply? Of course coins have incorrect grades! They also have 100% correct grades too! The closest we can ever come to a "market correct" grade is an NGC or PCGS slab with a CAC sticker. And some of those coins may...
Now, if you want a coin's real/actual condition: You put 12 of the best graders in the country in a room with one "technical" grader. ALL of them should agree on the coin's commercial grade in just a few minutes. Then, give the 12 a dose of truth serum and don't let anyone out of the room until 10 of the professionals agree with the technical grader after examining the coin very closely with florescent & incandescent light.
I will not mention any names (one did it here on CU with a million dollar coin); but the folks I respect the most can pick up a coin and say the actual grade of this coin is _______ because; but it is graded MS-whatever because....
We need more of these folks posting to teach all of us. Even the "net" graders are respected because they start out with a coins "correct" condition (sharpness) and then tell you why they lower its actual grade
@Insider2 said: @MFeld said: "Please don’t use the term “real grade”. That is an illusory term, which can mislead those who don’t know better. Surely, you can come up with a more meaningful and realistic way of saying what you (hopefully) really mean."
Perhaps the grade in a Heritage Auction is the "real" grade. Oops, Heritage doesn't grade coins anymore. They market slabs that are graded by other folks.
News flash, this comes pretty close: @Baley said: "[A] consensus grade by someone(s) who stand by their Opinion with a bid to buy the coin at stated grade/price"
Grading is a ranking system based on the appearance of a coin. Unfortunately, there are too many variables in the modern "market" grading system. That's why I can understand how hard it is for even knowledgeable numismatists to understand the meaning of "real." The fact that coins have an "actual grade" would be a better way to express a "real" grade based only on its condition of preservation. That way when I say that many coins graded low MS today have an actual grade of AU. It is not hard to understand. So you can see that IMO the only IMAGINARY THING GOING ON with regard to grading is in the commercial market and auction companies.
A coin is either ungraded or graded by someone. In the latter instance, there is an assigned grade. If you say that the assigned grade is the “real” grade, that implies that there is necessarily an incorrect grade and a correct grade. I believe history has shown that’s not nearly always the case.
What?
Imply? Of course coins have incorrect grades! They also have 100% correct grades too! The closest we can ever come to a "market correct" grade is an NGC or PCGS slab with a CAC sticker. And some of those coins may...
Now, if you want a coin's real/actual condition: You put 12 of the best graders in the country in a room with one "technical" grader. ALL of them should agree on the coin's commercial grade in just a few minutes. Then, give the 12 a dose of truth serum and don't let anyone out of the room until 10 of the professionals agree with the technical grader after examining the coin very closely with florescent & incandescent light.
I will not mention any names (one did it here on CU with a million dollar coin); but the folks I respect the most can pick up a coin and say the actual grade of this coin is _______ because; but it is graded MS-whatever because....
We need more of these folks posting to teach all of us. Even the "net" graders are respected because they start out with a coins "correct" condition (sharpness) and then tell you why they lower its actual grade
You lost me.
You have made reference to a "real grade", as if it is an absolute and unquestionable. While there are many coins which lend themselves to a unanimously (or nearly unanimously) agreed upon grade by a group of experts, many other coins do not fall into that category. Surely there is a more practical/realistic term to use than "real grade".
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld . Don't feel bad ya'll lost me about 15 posts ago. @Insider2 . Has the coin in question been sent in yet, as several of us would like to know if she winks or not
@coinlieutenant Replied to my disagreement with some of his comments:
@Insider2 posted: "Most coins do not even touch the hard plastic slides in the first place."
@coinlieutenant posted: "In 2016 I bought a six figure collection of dollars from a collector in New Mexico, all in Dansco or older albums. A good 50% or more of the coins had honest to goodness real slide marks on the coins that lowered the value of the collection by half of what it could have been. These were not cleaning lines, they were very clearly limited to the high cheek points of lady liberty on the same spot on every coin that had them. If slide marks are so difficult to make, how did this happen?"
_Based on your original comment that I disagreed on: "@coinlieutenant said: Looks like slide marks..." and other opinions below, you and others have demonstrated to me that you don't know the difference between hairlines, slide marks, scratches, or planchet striae. I don't expect many of us would using just one of my typically poor images. I am not being condescending. **That is one of the reasons I started this discussion (there will be more on this subject) in the first place - "terminology." When a poster uses a word, we should all be on the same "page!" All scratches are not hairlines or planchet flaws._
@coinlieutenant continued: **"A roller line wouldn't blink..."
This is an EXCELLENT observation that I never thought of so I will steal it for my classes.
@coinlieutenant continued: "...and under magnification [a roller mark] is "clean", not irregular."
This is not entirely true as it depends on the lighting and magnification. That's why I posted this: "From this "opinion," I doubt very much that you've seen ANY characteristic on a coin using florescent light and a stereomicroscope."
@coinlieutenant continued: "Let me be more detailed so as to save you from your condescending proclivities. The metal on a scratch induced mark only has one way to go...and that is up. Because a scratch depth is rarely uniform, the scratch is not clean, with varying heights of "mountain range" on either side of the line and looks entirely different under magnification than a roller mark."
The only thing I agree on in this paragraph is that a knowledgeable numismatist should know the difference between PMD (a scratch) and a Mint-made defect such as a "roller mark." Scratch damage on coins rarely have upturned sides BECAUSE: a) They rarely are that severe. b) If the metal does become pushed up into thin ridges, 98% of the time it becomes worn down flat on coins that are scratched. The major exception are the coins that someone takes a knife to and carves a deep scratch into their surface.
@coinlieutenant continued: "I think I mentioned earlier in this thread that it is good to see these kinds of threads. I stand by that statement. However, let me clearly say, that it is clear to all students which professors teach because they want their students to learn and which are teaching to show how smart they are. Students learn better from the former. If you wish to use the Socratic method in these threads, consider how your responses will encourage further discussion. Based on your previous responses to both me and others, you are failing in this regard. And just to head you off at the pass, I am not butt hurt about your condescending words of "duped", "opinion" nor your passive aggressive allusions to my inferior knowledge..."
IMO, just because I disagree 100% with many opinions about the coins I posted in my discussion is no reason to think of me as condescending or looking to be a smarty-show-off. Frankly, most folks posting here are either accomplished collectors, dealers, or seeking to learn more about coins. I'm sorry that I was "raised in the swamp" by alligators but I like to get to the point quickly and post what I think so others can refute it. The ONLY reason someone can accuse me of being "passive aggressive" is I'm posting on a forum with rules. I don't ever post in a way I would in person and sometimes as this, I let a little time go buy while I edit my original thoughts.
@coinlieutenant closed with this: "And to close, I have most certainly looked at coins under a microscope. I don't remember the light type however, and I'm quite sure your microscope was bigger than mine."
Fooled me, BTW, a big microscope or a little microscope in a dark room is USELESS. The type of lighting matters.
The ANA grading standards do not to my understanding define scratches or what would prevent a numerical grade. Correct me if I am wrong. Doesn't that just leave it up to professional coin graders to make the tough decisions?
As I understand it any coin graded by the reputable TPG's is a consensus grade. At least one grader and a finalizer must agree on the grade.
So is the consensus grade correct, or the True Grade?
By what I have seen on this and other forums I would say that few people think so.
So, to the original coin with the hairlines...
I do not think that these lines were on the coin immediately after striking so that, in my reckoning, by definition removes the coin from an Mint State grade.
I also do not see any wear on the coin so that would remove the coin from any of the circulated grades.
So that leaves only uncirculated details, Hairlines as a grade.
So as to value...
To me it is a very common date that I do not need to complete my set, therefore it has no value above metal content.
I am neither a stacker nor a hoarder so I would not buy this coin
That is my take and opinion and I would be shocked if anyone here agrees with it.
If it will not grade what does it mater? now it becomes a problem coin and most will only pay spot silver for it or if some one can pawn it off on some one that cant grade or doesn't see it when looking at it. In less it's a key or harder coin to find they will not grade it or give it a pass is how it works most of the time.
As I understand it any coin graded by the reputable TPG's is a consensus grade. At least one grader and a finalizer must agree on the grade.
So is the consensus grade correct, or the True Grade?
By what I have seen on this and other forums I would say that few people think so.
So, to the original coin with the hairlines...
I do not think that these lines were on the coin immediately after striking so that, in my reckoning, by definition removes the coin from an Mint State grade.
I also do not see any wear on the coin so that would remove the coin from any of the circulated grades.
So that leaves only uncirculated details, Hairlines as a grade.
So as to value...
To me it is a very common date that I do not need to complete my set, therefore it has no value above metal content.
I am neither a stacker nor a hoarder so I would not buy this coin
That is my take and opinion and I would be shocked if anyone here agrees with it.
Rather than being dizzy, you are showing a "deep" understanding of the subject with the questions and comments in your post.
Let me be the first or second to comment.
The grade of a major TPGS is a consensus grade. Professional graders like to think we are really good at it but it can be demonstrated that we (at least me) are guilty of some crazy opinions. That is why a consensus of several very knowledgeable graders + a finalizer is best. Nevertheless, this is not always possible. Therefore we can find over graded and under graded coins in slabs. The majority are considered to be graded correctly.
What is a "correct grade." Is the coin's actual condition correct all the time? No. Some folks assign a grade and then lower it for imperfections. Other folks wish to indicate what a coin is worth with a grade that has no regard to its actual condition. Therefore, a coins grade is very subjective. If I take a particular coin and wear it down until it becomes a TRUE AU. Some of the folks above will grad it XF because of a defect and others will grade it MS because of its value. So what is its correct grade. Which grader are you because UNFORTUNATELY grading can never be simple or precise anymore (as it was with true technical grading) because each of them is correct!
You are correct again. The quarter is MS. The hairlines came later but they are not enough to lower its condition to AU. However, hairlines do lower the coins MS grade.
I would not buy the coin either but very light hairlines as these are very hard for most folks to detect. Have you ever seen a collector/dealer hold a coin at a 75+ angle while rotating it under a 100W light. I have not - ever! IMO, after it is cracked out, this coin will end up graded MS-64 at some service or be sold raw as an MS-65. .
Just joining this party. This thread is both fun and informative/ educational. Thanks insider.
Just wanted to say that if the OP's coin, or any other, was indeed mint made damage, it should grade MS. If this is determined to have happened post mint, should be considered circulated. Regardless how light the "cabinet friction/rub etc... and of course it should grade lower than a problem free one. The more severe, the more the drop in grade.
So to me, the only question is, did this happen at the mint ? For that I'll yield to more experience in these matters. JMHO
Hope I didn't interrupt anyone,. I'm still on page 3.
I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈
Works in similar ways, when Ex-Perts "Grade" or rate things like wine, beer, and bourbon, or movies, or new cars.
Is there one "right" grade for those? Or are they just experienced Opinions?
Now, your speaking my language. I never met a wine I didn't like however, there have been some that were sub-par but, I drank all of it anyway cause it made me feel good. That being said, (and with all the experts chiming in) I bet this coin gets the unc. details but, if you pull the cork and send it in again say to a sub-par grading company, MS 63.
Take a microbrew beer for example. You can objectively, precisely, and reproducibly measure, with numbers, the % alcohol content, the bitterness units, the specific gravity (density), the residual sugar, the color wavelengths, the clarity, the CO2 content (fizziness) and many other things.
But, what's the overall rating?
Is it "good" compared to similar beers?
@Baley. I never knew beer could be so complicated...
But, I think I'll buy a 6 pack on the way home and get back to you later this evening after I find out
Works in similar ways, when Ex-Perts "Grade" or rate things like wine, beer, and bourbon, or movies, or new cars.
Is there one "right" grade for those? Or are they just experienced Opinions?
Bad examples. The ONLY thing you posted that can be "truly" graded in the same way as a coin would be a consensus opinion of the car. And the examiner's would need to take its style, beauty, functionality, and design out of their evaluation to come up with the best REPEATABLE - by other experts - opinion. It makes the evaluation less subjective and more precise.
Ideally, grading a coin or a car should comes down to its CONDITION OF PRESERVATION from when it left the factory. It does not matter if it is a Rolls Royce (1804 dollar) or a Jefferson nickel (Gaz M21).
Well, it appears that looks can be deceiving but, not always...
Here we have six different beers representing six different grades from left to right.
Now, these are in order based on eye appeal and Price Guide and before too much consumption and before really digging down into the details.
We'll start with the Unc. Details of the Modelo because lets face it, its cheap and made in Mexico but, it tastes good!
Next up, Stella Artois and I will give it a preliminary grade of AU, even though it sounds Mexican it's actually made in Belgium (wherever that is) has a fancy name and still tastes good.
Next is, Hopadilla IPA, not sure where its from but, it has some dual toning, costs a bit more and also tastes good. Actually, it tastes really good and it has a full strike with some luster starting to show. So, I will give it a preliminary grade of MS60.
Next in line is the Saint Arnold's Oktoberfest and this is where I first see the OP's coin because, it looks and tastes great at certain angles and then not so much at others. MS63.
Then, we have the have the Dirty Bastard, again this exhibits a very strong strike, plenty of luster, and almost a prooflike appearance with a frosty topping with plenty of dark toning. And yes, it tastes like a thankgiving turkey dinner all wrapped up in one cool drink. A definite must have for all medium to high end collectors who enjoy living in Knots Landing but, cannot afford South Fork and do not want to spend an entire annual salary on one coin.
Finally, I bring to you The Boulevards Brewing Companies Whiskey Barrel Stout Barrel aged Imperial Stout, Wow!
Now, this is a coin for the ages, certainly it is problem free, with deep black envious mirrors accented with "Who is the Fairest of all" followed up with amber devices and sweet carats of wisdom. Not to mention the naughty apple tones throughout.
This one is only for the select few...
Reality Check: Here is the lineup after living with each for an evening.
Sarcasm from Insider2....say it ain't so.
Is this thread basically done ? Has the chewing gum lost its flavor ? If so, what was the final decision on the OP coin (if decided) ??? Did I miss something ?
Lost.
I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈
@John2000 said:
Sarcasm from Insider2....say it ain't so.
Is this thread basically done ? Has the chewing gum lost its flavor ? If so, what was the final decision on the OP coin (if decided) ??? Did I miss something ?
Lost.
NOT AT ALL. IMO, the beer post should be a "Best of."
PS I have more images of hairlines to put into this discussion. Unfortunately, I cannot show a coin in a TPGS holder that is graded low because of hairlines. All I can say is that it is best to trust that there is a reason that a fully-frosty; blazing-gem Uncirculated coin is graded lower than you think it should be!
@John2000 said:
You cannot post, even for educational purposes ? I thought you could post other TPGS coins for this reason.
With no insulting that company anyway.
Why tryr? It is even harder to image them through the plastic. Anyone can find examples of hairlined coins that are "net" graded in slabs. Read the ANA Grading Guide! A coin can be straight graded low MS with continuous hairlines (cleaning). That quarter I posted is totally original except for the hairlines in one place. It went out as an ICG MS-62 or 63. I don't remember; but I'll guarantee the submitter thought he had an MS-65 or 66!
Thanks for taking the time and effort to post your beer fest! Hope it get's on "Best Of" so more members can enjoy it.
My pleasure, you notice my wording got a little bit of doubling after the fourth coin and I completely forgot to grade the last two I'll let your imagination fill in the blanks.
And best of luck on the beer, I mean coin...
Thanks for taking the time and effort to post your beer fest! Hope it get's on "Best Of" so more members can enjoy it.
My pleasure, you notice my wording got a little bit of doubling after the fourth coin and I completely forgot to grade the last two I'll let your imagination fill in the blanks.
And best of luck on the beer, I mean coin...
Lol. Slightly mis-aligned.
I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈
@John2000 said:
If the OP coin was encapsulated, (graded) could you even see the hairlines through the slab ?
Yes, but IMO very many could not at a coin show because of the overhead lighting. In a dark room with the slab tipped up at a very high angle, as you slowly rotate the up-turned slab the lines should become apparent with a 10X glass.
Should it matter? Perhaps only to a finicky collector. The coin is just as attractive as a non-hairlined example but it is not worth as much. That's why the lower TPGS grade. You can assemble a beautiful raw set in a Dansco (very economically) by cracking out hairlined coins that are less expensive and look 1-3 grades higher than their label indicates.
Comments
A coin is either ungraded or graded by someone. In the latter instance, there is an assigned grade. If you say that the assigned grade is the “real” grade, that implies that there is necessarily an incorrect grade and a correct grade. I believe history has shown that’s not nearly always the case.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What?
Imply? Of course coins have incorrect grades! They also have 100% correct grades too! The closest we can ever come to a "market correct" grade is an NGC or PCGS slab with a CAC sticker. And some of those coins may...
Now, if you want a coin's real/actual condition: You put 12 of the best graders in the country in a room with one "technical" grader. ALL of them should agree on the coin's commercial grade in just a few minutes. Then, give the 12 a dose of truth serum and don't let anyone out of the room until 10 of the professionals agree with the technical grader after examining the coin very closely with florescent & incandescent light.
I will not mention any names (one did it here on CU with a million dollar coin); but the folks I respect the most can pick up a coin and say the actual grade of this coin is _______ because; but it is graded MS-whatever because....
We need more of these folks posting to teach all of us. Even the "net" graders
are respected because they start out with a coins "correct" condition (sharpness) and then tell you why they lower its actual grade
You lost me.
You have made reference to a "real grade", as if it is an absolute and unquestionable. While there are many coins which lend themselves to a unanimously (or nearly unanimously) agreed upon grade by a group of experts, many other coins do not fall into that category. Surely there is a more practical/realistic term to use than "real grade".
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes. Consensus.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
@MFeld . Don't feel bad ya'll lost me about 15 posts ago.
@Insider2 . Has the coin in question been sent in yet, as several of us would like to know if she winks or not
@coinlieutenant Replied to my disagreement with some of his comments:
@Insider2 posted: "Most coins do not even touch the hard plastic slides in the first place."
@coinlieutenant posted: "In 2016 I bought a six figure collection of dollars from a collector in New Mexico, all in Dansco or older albums. A good 50% or more of the coins had honest to goodness real slide marks on the coins that lowered the value of the collection by half of what it could have been. These were not cleaning lines, they were very clearly limited to the high cheek points of lady liberty on the same spot on every coin that had them. If slide marks are so difficult to make, how did this happen?"
_Based on your original comment that I disagreed on: "@coinlieutenant said: Looks like slide marks..." and other opinions below, you and others have demonstrated to me that you don't know the difference between hairlines, slide marks, scratches, or planchet striae. I don't expect many of us would using just one of my typically poor images. I am not being condescending. **That is one of the reasons I started this discussion (there will be more on this subject) in the first place - "terminology." When a poster uses a word, we should all be on the same "page!" All scratches are not hairlines or planchet flaws._
@coinlieutenant continued: **"A roller line wouldn't blink..."
This is an EXCELLENT observation that I never thought of so I will steal it for my classes.
@coinlieutenant continued: "...and under magnification [a roller mark] is "clean", not irregular."
This is not entirely true as it depends on the lighting and magnification. That's why I posted this: "From this "opinion," I doubt very much that you've seen ANY characteristic on a coin using florescent light and a stereomicroscope."
@coinlieutenant continued: "Let me be more detailed so as to save you from your condescending proclivities. The metal on a scratch induced mark only has one way to go...and that is up. Because a scratch depth is rarely uniform, the scratch is not clean, with varying heights of "mountain range" on either side of the line and looks entirely different under magnification than a roller mark."
The only thing I agree on in this paragraph is that a knowledgeable numismatist should know the difference between PMD (a scratch) and a Mint-made defect such as a "roller mark." Scratch damage on coins rarely have upturned sides BECAUSE: a) They rarely are that severe. b) If the metal does become pushed up into thin ridges, 98% of the time it becomes worn down flat on coins that are scratched. The major exception are the coins that someone takes a knife to and carves a deep scratch into their surface.
@coinlieutenant continued: "I think I mentioned earlier in this thread that it is good to see these kinds of threads. I stand by that statement. However, let me clearly say, that it is clear to all students which professors teach because they want their students to learn and which are teaching to show how smart they are. Students learn better from the former. If you wish to use the Socratic method in these threads, consider how your responses will encourage further discussion. Based on your previous responses to both me and others, you are failing in this regard. And just to head you off at the pass, I am not butt hurt about your condescending words of "duped", "opinion" nor your passive aggressive allusions to my inferior knowledge..."
IMO, just because I disagree 100% with many opinions about the coins I posted in my discussion is no reason to think of me as condescending or looking to be a smarty-show-off.
Frankly, most folks posting here are either accomplished collectors, dealers, or seeking to learn more about coins. I'm sorry that I was "raised in the swamp" by alligators but I like to get to the point quickly and post what I think so others can refute it. The ONLY reason someone can accuse me of being "passive aggressive" is I'm posting on a forum with rules. I don't ever post in a way I would in person 
and sometimes as this, I let a little time go buy while I edit my original thoughts. 
@coinlieutenant closed with this: "And to close, I have most certainly looked at coins under a microscope. I don't remember the light type however, and I'm quite sure your microscope was bigger than mine."
Fooled me, BTW, a big microscope or a little microscope in a dark room is USELESS. The type of lighting matters.
Still coin -guy friends?
The ANA grading standards do not to my understanding define scratches or what would prevent a numerical grade. Correct me if I am wrong. Doesn't that just leave it up to professional coin graders to make the tough decisions?
Well, I am rather dizzy now.
As I understand it any coin graded by the reputable TPG's is a consensus grade. At least one grader and a finalizer must agree on the grade.
So is the consensus grade correct, or the True Grade?
By what I have seen on this and other forums I would say that few people think so.
So, to the original coin with the hairlines...
I do not think that these lines were on the coin immediately after striking so that, in my reckoning, by definition removes the coin from an Mint State grade.
I also do not see any wear on the coin so that would remove the coin from any of the circulated grades.
So that leaves only uncirculated details, Hairlines as a grade.
So as to value...
To me it is a very common date that I do not need to complete my set, therefore it has no value above metal content.
I am neither a stacker nor a hoarder so I would not buy this coin
That is my take and opinion and I would be shocked if anyone here agrees with it.
If it will not grade what does it mater? now it becomes a problem coin and most will only pay spot silver for it or if some one can pawn it off on some one that cant grade or doesn't see it when looking at it. In less it's a key or harder coin to find they will not grade it or give it a pass is how it works most of the time.
Hoard the keys.
Rather than being dizzy, you are showing a "deep" understanding of the subject with the questions and comments in your post.
Let me be the first or second to comment.
The grade of a major TPGS is a consensus grade. Professional graders like to think we are really good at it but it can be demonstrated that we (at least me) are guilty of some crazy opinions. That is why a consensus of several very knowledgeable graders + a finalizer is best. Nevertheless, this is not always possible. Therefore we can find over graded and under graded coins in slabs. The majority are considered to be graded correctly.
What is a "correct grade." Is the coin's actual condition correct all the time? No. Some folks assign a grade and then lower it for imperfections. Other folks wish to indicate what a coin is worth with a grade that has no regard to its actual condition. Therefore, a coins grade is very subjective. If I take a particular coin and wear it down until it becomes a TRUE AU. Some of the folks above will grad it XF because of a defect and others will grade it MS because of its value. So what is its correct grade. Which grader are you because UNFORTUNATELY grading can never be simple or precise anymore (as it was with true technical grading) because each of them is correct!
You are correct again. The quarter is MS. The hairlines came later but they are not enough to lower its condition to AU. However, hairlines do lower the coins MS grade.
I would not buy the coin either but very light hairlines as these are very hard for most folks to detect. Have you ever seen a collector/dealer hold a coin at a 75+ angle while rotating it under a 100W light. I have not - ever! IMO, after it is cracked out, this coin will end up graded MS-64 at some service or be sold raw as an MS-65.
.
Consensus opinion.
Works in similar ways, when Ex-Perts "Grade" or rate things like wine, beer, and bourbon, or movies, or new cars.
Is there one "right" grade for those? Or are they just experienced Opinions?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Just joining this party. This thread is both fun and informative/ educational. Thanks insider.
Just wanted to say that if the OP's coin, or any other, was indeed mint made damage, it should grade MS. If this is determined to have happened post mint, should be considered circulated. Regardless how light the "cabinet friction/rub etc... and of course it should grade lower than a problem free one. The more severe, the more the drop in grade.
So to me, the only question is, did this happen at the mint ? For that I'll yield to more experience in these matters. JMHO
Hope I didn't interrupt anyone,. I'm still on page 3.
I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈
Now, your speaking my language. I never met a wine I didn't like however, there have been some that were sub-par but, I drank all of it anyway cause it made me feel good. That being said, (and with all the experts chiming in) I bet this coin gets the unc. details but, if you pull the cork and send it in again say to a sub-par grading company, MS 63.
It's not a bad analogy.
Take a microbrew beer for example. You can objectively, precisely, and reproducibly measure, with numbers, the % alcohol content, the bitterness units, the specific gravity (density), the residual sugar, the color wavelengths, the clarity, the CO2 content (fizziness) and many other things.
But, what's the overall rating?
Is it "good" compared to similar beers?
You tell us 😉
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
@Baley. I never knew beer could be so complicated...
But, I think I'll buy a 6 pack on the way home and get back to you later this evening after I find out
Bad examples. The ONLY thing you posted that can be "truly" graded in the same way as a coin would be a consensus opinion of the car. And the examiner's would need to take its style, beauty, functionality, and design out of their evaluation to come up with the best REPEATABLE - by other experts - opinion. It makes the evaluation less subjective and more precise.
Ideally, grading a coin or a car should comes down to its CONDITION OF PRESERVATION from when it left the factory. It does not matter if it is a Rolls Royce (1804 dollar) or a Jefferson nickel (Gaz M21).
Well, it appears that looks can be deceiving but, not always...
Here we have six different beers representing six different grades from left to right.
Now, these are in order based on eye appeal and Price Guide and before too much consumption and before really digging down into the details.
We'll start with the Unc. Details of the Modelo because lets face it, its cheap and made in Mexico but, it tastes good!
Next up, Stella Artois and I will give it a preliminary grade of AU, even though it sounds Mexican it's actually made in Belgium (wherever that is) has a fancy name and still tastes good.
Next is, Hopadilla IPA, not sure where its from but, it has some dual toning, costs a bit more and also tastes good. Actually, it tastes really good and it has a full strike with some luster starting to show. So, I will give it a preliminary grade of MS60.
Next in line is the Saint Arnold's Oktoberfest and this is where I first see the OP's coin because, it looks and tastes great at certain angles and then not so much at others. MS63.
Then, we have the have the Dirty Bastard, again this exhibits a very strong strike, plenty of luster, and almost a prooflike appearance with a frosty topping with plenty of dark toning. And yes, it tastes like a thankgiving turkey dinner all wrapped up in one cool drink. A definite must have for all medium to high end collectors who enjoy living in Knots Landing but, cannot afford South Fork and do not want to spend an entire annual salary on one coin.
Finally, I bring to you The Boulevards Brewing Companies Whiskey Barrel Stout Barrel aged Imperial Stout, Wow!
Now, this is a coin for the ages, certainly it is problem free, with deep black envious mirrors accented with "Who is the Fairest of all" followed up with amber devices and sweet carats of wisdom. Not to mention the naughty apple tones throughout.
This one is only for the select few...
Reality Check: Here is the lineup after living with each for an evening.
That PCGS 2-day Priority box has an address on it. But my beer-coin magnifier is out-of-focus.
@Hemispherical LOL, are the moderators up yet? I woke up thinking man I'm gonna be sitting in the corner for a while.
@CoinscratchFever,
Thanks for taking the time and effort to post your beer fest! Hope it get's on "Best Of" so more members can enjoy it.
Sarcasm from Insider2....say it ain't so.
Is this thread basically done ? Has the chewing gum lost its flavor ? If so, what was the final decision on the OP coin (if decided) ??? Did I miss something ?
Lost.
I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈
NOT AT ALL. IMO, the beer post should be a "Best of."
PS I have more images of hairlines to put into this discussion. Unfortunately, I cannot show a coin in a TPGS holder that is graded low because of hairlines. All I can say is that it is best to trust that there is a reason that a fully-frosty; blazing-gem Uncirculated coin is graded lower than you think it should be!
You cannot post, even for educational purposes ? I thought you could post other TPGS coins for this reason.
With no insulting that company anyway.
I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈
Why tryr? It is even harder to image them through the plastic. Anyone can find examples of hairlined coins that are "net" graded in slabs. Read the ANA Grading Guide! A coin can be straight graded low MS with continuous hairlines (cleaning). That quarter I posted is totally original except for the hairlines in one place. It went out as an ICG MS-62 or 63. I don't remember; but I'll guarantee the submitter thought he had an MS-65 or 66!
If the OP coin was encapsulated, (graded) could you even see the hairlines through the slab ?
I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈
My pleasure, you notice my wording got a little bit of doubling after the fourth coin and I completely forgot to grade the last two
I'll let your imagination fill in the blanks.
And best of luck on the beer, I mean coin...
Lol. Slightly mis-aligned.
I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈
Yes, but IMO very many could not at a coin show because of the overhead lighting. In a dark room with the slab tipped up at a very high angle, as you slowly rotate the up-turned slab the lines should become apparent with a 10X glass.
Should it matter? Perhaps only to a finicky collector. The coin is just as attractive as a non-hairlined example but it is not worth as much. That's why the lower TPGS grade. You can assemble a beautiful raw set in a Dansco (very economically) by cracking out hairlined coins that are less expensive and look 1-3 grades higher than their label indicates.