Maybe a little input, I've found to be very interesting and reveiling with alot of coolness in discovery.
Tilt the coin, or place another somthing as to the angle desired for the position needed to produce your
veiw that caught your eye in the first place.
You will very surprised with the details that are invisible veiwing the design straight up!
Looks like some of the silver coins that I would find with my metal detector. Abrasions from silica.
If it was mine there's a significant chance it would BB.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
I am purposely ignoring the other posts/opinions - not because I don’t think they have merit, but rather, because I don’t want to be influenced by them.
From what I can see in the pictures, I’d go with “Uncirculated details, obverse cleaned/wiped.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said:
I am purposely ignoring the other posts/opinions - not because I don’t think they have merit, but rather, because I don’t want to be influenced by them.
From what I can see in the pictures, I’d go with “Uncirculated details, obverse cleaned/wiped.”
I'm reading all of them, and awaiting Insider's final opinion.
I'm trying to learn at what point hairlines are 'grade limiting', but not 'grade eliminating'.
Obviously if it were heavily abraded I understand the no grade- details (body bag).
But at what point are some hairlines allowed, or moderate hairlines? Or, is this also subjective, and 19th century coins get a pass, but 20th century coins do not?
@MFeld said:
I am purposely ignoring the other posts/opinions - not because I don’t think they have merit, but rather, because I don’t want to be influenced by them.
From what I can see in the pictures, I’d go with “Uncirculated details, obverse cleaned/wiped.”
I'm reading all of them, and awaiting Insider's final opinion.
I'm trying to learn at what point hairlines are 'grade limiting', but not 'grade eliminating'.
Obviously if it were heavily abraded I understand the no grade- details (body bag).
But at what point are some hairlines allowed, or moderate hairlines? Or, is this also subjective, and 19th century coins get a pass, but 20th century coins do not?
By the way, when I said I was ignoring the other replies, I didn't mean to indicate I wasn't reading them. I just wanted to form my own opinion, based on what I saw, not on what others thought.
I can answer at least part of your questions. Often, the decision whether to assign a details grade can be as difficult and subjective as the decision regarding what numerical grade to assign a straight grade coin. It's a judgment call and results can and do vary.
And yes, I believe that certain coins aren't held to the same standard as other less "important" ones.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Often, the decision whether to assign a details grade can be as difficult and subjective as the decision regarding what numerical grade to assign a straight grade coin. It's a judgment call and results can and do vary.
Thanks Mark!
So the inputs on this particular coin are just different people's opinions, based on what they are seeing in the photos (which we all agree are difficult to grade from, even really good photos). And even the TPGs may grade it differently day to day.
@habaraca said:
Anyone in the die polish lines corner?
Without better pics or a better description of these lines it’s a tough call. However I did mention it in one of my earlier replies. I was wondering if Mr. Cantankerous knows the difference 😂.
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
@WaterSport said:
Here is MHO. These are not production marks nor do I consider them damage. They are worth a grade less. I would call these "Hairlines" as very light scratches commonly made or caused by the sliding plastic windows found in Whitman and other folders. Same goes for cabinet friction as I consider them one in the same.
This coin, in my opinion is details, cleaned. One of the supposed (unrealized) benefits of TPG grading was to allow sight-unseen trading. I wouldn't want to buy this in a straight-grade holder and discover the nasty surprise. Good luck availing yourself of a grade guarantee from any TPG if you were to submit it for review.....
As an anecdote, one of the two times I tried a coin restoration service was for a darkly toned, but technically nice-appearing and lustrous 28-S Peace dollar in a 64+ holder. CAC declined to sticker it. It came back white, flashy, and beautiful except for a clearly visible patch of parallel hairlines across the portrait almost exactly like the OP's photo. It was still in a 64+ holder. Ever thereafter I regarded it as a cleaned coin and sold it, but not before getting a green sticker, LOL. Opinions are just opinions, and hairlines can be easily missed.
Don't mistake my comments for CAC or TPG bashing. One swallow does not a summer make......
@WaterSport said:
Here is MHO. These are not production marks nor do I consider them damage. They are worth a grade less. I would call these "Hairlines" as very light scratches commonly made or caused by the sliding plastic windows found in Whitman and other folders. Same goes for cabinet friction as I consider them one in the same.
WS
This,,
From above: "They are worth a grade less."
A grade less than what? I hope the two of you don't mean just one point less than the coin would otherwise grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@habaraca said:
Anyone in the die polish lines corner?
NO
And there better not be.
Thanks for submitting that as a possibility. Can you (or anyone else) tell us what die polish would look like. Is it raised on or into the coins surface? What color would die polish have? Is that color present in the first image?
This discussion may be informative for random abrasions.
I have seen very definate arrows as directions from possibility of a sign off in the production process.
Am I off base to question this as i've seen lots of arrows and followed them to the error.
Die Polish Lines are raised, on the planar surfaces (or shallow die recesses) and tone in tandem with the rest of the coin. They tend to be more coarse and separated than cleaning marks. Because they are raised, they reflect light differently and are readily visible when the light approximates 90 degrees to the lines. (see images in the "die polish" thread. )
@kaz said:
Die Polish Lines are raised, on the planar surfaces (or shallow die recesses) and tone in tandem with the rest of the coin. They tend to be more coarse and separated than cleaning marks. Because they are raised, they reflect light differently and are readily visible when the light approximates 90 degrees to the lines. (see images in the "die polish" thread. )
Nailed it! Die polish is the same basic color of the surrounding surface because it is on the die. Any degree of abrasion to a surface is a different color - in most cases "shiny" at first until it gets dull over time. Note the bright lines in the first image. Later I'll post about the degree of the abrasion.
I love this coin. But it has been BB'd by PCGS three times.
There are some very faint, old hairlines in the right obverse...seen only under certain angles. Far less than other straight-graded bust halves I've seen (and some I own). But PCGS spots them and denies a clean grade.
If this is their standard then OP's coin deserves no better. Its hairlines (or whatever you want to call them) are far more severe.
Lance.
@lkeigwin said:
I love this coin. But it has been BB'd by PCGS three times.
There are some very faint, old hairlines in the right obverse...seen only under certain angles. Far less than other straight-graded bust halves I've seen (and some I own). But PCGS spots them and denies a clean grade.
If this is their standard then OP's coin deserves no better. Its hairlines (or whatever you want to call them) are far more severe.
Lance.
It's pretty. This is probably the type of coin that is often ATed and that ends up in a slab at some point unless it is held by honest collectors like you.
@lkeigwin said:
I love this coin. But it has been BB'd by PCGS three times.
There are some very faint, old hairlines in the right obverse...seen only under certain angles. Far less than other straight-graded bust halves I've seen (and some I own). But PCGS spots them and denies a clean grade.
If this is their standard then OP's coin deserves no better. Its hairlines (or whatever you want to call them) are far more severe.
Lance.
Lance, I am not sure if hairlines might be the issue. I have some very nice coins with great eye appeal that have hairlines and they graded a 62-63. I cannot tell form your photos, but wonder if the coin was dipped many years ago and the fields show "errosion" from the dipping? I have a very nice 1928 Peace $ that was given to me by my Uncle over 60 years ago that was graded "cleaned". Perhaps I cleaned it 60 years ago?, but the reverse is very nicely toned. Your 1821 is very nice and might be a great addition of your box of 20 that BB.
Thanks, @OldIndianNutKase. I am reasonably certain faint hairlines are the problem. This photo may not emphasize them enough but I truly believe they are the problem.
Not sure I understand "erosion from dipping".
This coin was judged ".92 MS details" and twice ".92 AU details".
Maybe I'll let it sit on the window sill for a couple of years.
Lance.
@lkeigwin said: "Not sure I understand "erosion from dipping"."
I'll start and others can add. Since I don't claim to be a chemist this is a basic answer to help. I am not talking down to anyone.
A chemical can react with a surface. "Dips" are liquid chemicals. If a reaction can take place, there are conditions that influence the degree that the surface is changed by the chemical. Some that come to mind are concentration of the dip, temperature, length of time exposed, and the composition of the surface. If I think about it I can possibly add others. SO...under the right conditions, a chemical dip can "etch" (destroy the originality) the surface of a coin. I believe that is what the poster considers "erosion from dipping."
Now there is another aspect of dipping to consider. When a dip is used to remove oxidized material, the fact that the surface is oxidized indicates it is not 100% original anymore. If the oxidation has reached a certain point (end-stage), the underlying surface is permanently ruined. It that case a chemical dip may completely remove the oxidation but the etched surface under it will be exposed. It is not quite the same thing but often the surfaces will look similar.
Now go put a copper cent in a jar of coke and you'll see "erosion from dipping."
This is a common occurrence. A "gem+++" coin with a patch of hairlines that are very easy to miss until the coin is tipped and rotated into a specific position to the light source.
How much should this detract from the coin's grade? Do to think this is enough of a defect to "Detail" the coin?
The first thing to consider is what exactly is a hairline? I think of them a an extremely fine line that is so light that it hardly penetrates the coin's surface even under high magnifications. Once the surface is barely broken, our "hairline" becomes a very fine SCRATCH! A hairline or sometimes a very fine scratch will not be obvious unless the coin is in a certain orientation to the light. For most folks, hairlines are best seen in a dark room using a 75W to 100W incandescent light. Note that in the image above there are very bright lines across the coin. This coin has a large amount of parallel hairlines. The reason they are not considered scratches in this case is they completely disappear in the other image I posted.
When many hairlines occur in a patch as on this Quarter, they are very detracting if they are detected. In this case, a coin with full, frosty-white luster with no trace of rub and a few small contact marks (mostly visible because the brilliance of the surface that would normally conceal them has been eliminated by florescent light) - at least a MS-65 will be dropped in grade to a 63 or 64 Max.
That's why you'll see Roosevelt and Mercury dimes and Washington quarters with virtually no marks and booming luster (the look MS-67) in MS-63 or 64 slabs. Faint hairlines across the face.
When incuse parallel lines are so close that they destroy the surface they are called "wipes" or "wheel marks." Check out the images below.
Sorry, but even if that quarter were otherwise perfect and you can only detect the hairlines by tilting and rotating it under a light, based on the images, I’d give it a details grade. Sorry, also, for the long sentence.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Another Sorry. The original coin has been wiped which is the same as cleaning. The last Liberty Seated coin has been cleaned also. It looks like someone tried to remove something just to the right of the star. Certainly not Hairlines or Slide Marks.
@MFeld said:
Sorry, but even if that quarter were otherwise perfect and you can only detect the hairlines by tilting and rotating it under a light, based on the images, I’d give it a details grade. Sorry, also, for the long sentence.😉
While I'll agree that coins as this should be described in some way, commercial grading is different.
I had to cock that coin up just so while holding it in order to get the image I wanted. I'll guarantee that a large number of collectors and dealers would see that coin in a 2X2, put a glass to it and buy it while licking their chops because they just pick up a coin and stare at it without moving it at all. Hundreds of them have been in my classes over the decades so I know what I'm posting is 100% true by actual experience. It is very humorous. I am constantly telling students all day long (even on the third day of a seminar): "Rotate the coin, you are just staring at it."
A lot of coins don't cross because of these marks. While this quarter looks like an extreme example, buyer beware.
@Fairlaneman said:
Another Sorry. The original coin has been wiped which is the same as cleaning. The last Liberty Seated coin has been cleaned also. It looks like someone tried to remove something just to the right of the star. Certainly not Hairlines or Slide Marks.
Ken
Another sorry, to disagree with your opinion - both of them.
@lkeigwin said:
Thanks, @OldIndianNutKase. I am reasonably certain faint hairlines are the problem. This photo may not emphasize them enough but I truly believe they are the problem.
Not sure I understand "erosion from dipping".
This coin was judged ".92 MS details" and twice ".92 AU details".
Maybe I'll let it sit on the window sill for a couple of years.
Lance.
Too bad They can't just call it "Unc. details very faint hairlines Net 59" or whatever. Curious what you bought it "as"? (Meaning, grade equivalent)
I am okay with that. It's a lovely, lustrous coin that might have earned a nice price, straight-graded. A "win" would have been sweet. So it goes.
Lance.
I am okay with that. It's a lovely, lustrous coin that might have earned a nice price, straight-graded. A "win" would have been sweet. So it goes.
Lance.
@Baley said:
Bad scratch, location couldn't be much worse.
Agree. Details grade only. Heavy scratch in a prime focal area.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
For the new picture, the scratch appears large but that's partially a function of the excellent resolution. I would say this could straight grade depending how much it catches the light under ordinary viewing. Matter of opinion I think (as all commerical grading is 😁)
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@Insider2 said: @lkeigwin said: "Not sure I understand "erosion from dipping"."
I'll start and others can add. Since I don't claim to be a chemist this is a basic answer to help. I am not talking down to anyone.
A chemical can react with a surface. "Dips" are liquid chemicals. If a reaction can take place, there are conditions that influence the degree that the surface is changed by the chemical. Some that come to mind are concentration of the dip, temperature, length of time exposed, and the composition of the surface. If I think about it I can possibly add others. SO...under the right conditions, a chemical dip can "etch" (destroy the originality) the surface of a coin. I believe that is what the poster considers "erosion from dipping."
Now there is another aspect of dipping to consider. When a dip is used to remove oxidized material, the fact that the surface is oxidized indicates it is not 100% original anymore. If the oxidation has reached a certain point (end-stage), the underlying surface is permanently ruined. It that case a chemical dip may completely remove the oxidation but the etched surface under it will be exposed. It is not quite the same thing but often the surfaces will look similar.
Now go put a copper cent in a jar of coke and you'll see "erosion from dipping."
I think you've got it. I like this answer because it doesn't use too many chemistry trade words (as I sometimes fall into the trap of) but is accurate. My only quibble (and it's indeed a small point) is that the toning does not need to be end stage to start acid stripping the surface. Any time you get an oxygen or sulfur atom stuck between the silver atom and its friends, it's highly likely you'll get some loss of material. End stage material is much worse in this regard so the effect is more obvious. However, repeated dips of light toning will eventually start to show more etching. Your best defense against this, if you choose to dip, is to go low and slow. Low concentration of dip, no elevated temps.
Thanks for the clarification. The darker colors of oxidation (before full black) do effect the surface but usually, they too can be removed w/o a trace if near the coin's edge.
Nit picking my own post, dipping a coin properly will change the surface at some microscopic level and continual dips will add to the changes; however, in my demonstrations and personal experience (depending on the coin) many proper dips to the same coin will also go undetected even though the surface is being chemically altered.
@Insider2 said:
What about this coin? Should this coin be "Details?" Hairline? Scratch?
I think the coin would grade nicely as an XF as circulated coins can have a scratch or two without being BB. Nothing in your pic suggests that this is a MS coin which are graded to a different standard.
@Baley said: Bad scratch, location couldn't be much worse.
You and I have a very different sense of humor! Rather than a LOL, on a post that gives members a clue about the mark on the 50c, I wish you would have corrected your original opinion above.
While the "SCRATCH-LIKE" marks on the gold coin have a name - "Adjustment Marks," the "scratch-like" marks on the half dollar I posted ALSO also have a name. It is NOT a bad scratch and is NOT Post Mint Damage (PMD).
BTW, while we wait for someone to guess correctly, what do you think? Should the gold coin above receive a "detail" grade?" What grade would the "Net Graders" assign to the 1798?
Comments
Maybe a little input, I've found to be very interesting and reveiling with alot of coolness in discovery.
Tilt the coin, or place another somthing as to the angle desired for the position needed to produce your
veiw that caught your eye in the first place.
You will very surprised with the details that are invisible veiwing the design straight up!
Looks like some of the silver coins that I would find with my metal detector. Abrasions from silica.
If it was mine there's a significant chance it would BB.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
I am purposely ignoring the other posts/opinions - not because I don’t think they have merit, but rather, because I don’t want to be influenced by them.
From what I can see in the pictures, I’d go with “Uncirculated details, obverse cleaned/wiped.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm reading all of them, and awaiting Insider's final opinion.
I'm trying to learn at what point hairlines are 'grade limiting', but not 'grade eliminating'.
Obviously if it were heavily abraded I understand the no grade- details (body bag).
But at what point are some hairlines allowed, or moderate hairlines? Or, is this also subjective, and 19th century coins get a pass, but 20th century coins do not?
By the way, when I said I was ignoring the other replies, I didn't mean to indicate I wasn't reading them. I just wanted to form my own opinion, based on what I saw, not on what others thought.
I can answer at least part of your questions. Often, the decision whether to assign a details grade can be as difficult and subjective as the decision regarding what numerical grade to assign a straight grade coin. It's a judgment call and results can and do vary.
And yes, I believe that certain coins aren't held to the same standard as other less "important" ones.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Often, the decision whether to assign a details grade can be as difficult and subjective as the decision regarding what numerical grade to assign a straight grade coin. It's a judgment call and results can and do vary.
Thanks Mark!
So the inputs on this particular coin are just different people's opinions, based on what they are seeing in the photos (which we all agree are difficult to grade from, even really good photos). And even the TPGs may grade it differently day to day.
Anyone in the die polish lines corner?
Without better pics or a better description of these lines it’s a tough call. However I did mention it in one of my earlier replies. I was wondering if Mr. Cantankerous knows the difference 😂.
Just sort of bumping this back to the top so it stays alive so I can learn what Insider2 says
I don't think so. die polish lines are usually on the planar surfaces, unusual to see them deep in the recesses of the die.
This,,
This coin, in my opinion is details, cleaned. One of the supposed (unrealized) benefits of TPG grading was to allow sight-unseen trading. I wouldn't want to buy this in a straight-grade holder and discover the nasty surprise. Good luck availing yourself of a grade guarantee from any TPG if you were to submit it for review.....
As an anecdote, one of the two times I tried a coin restoration service was for a darkly toned, but technically nice-appearing and lustrous 28-S Peace dollar in a 64+ holder. CAC declined to sticker it. It came back white, flashy, and beautiful except for a clearly visible patch of parallel hairlines across the portrait almost exactly like the OP's photo. It was still in a 64+ holder. Ever thereafter I regarded it as a cleaned coin and sold it, but not before getting a green sticker, LOL. Opinions are just opinions, and hairlines can be easily missed.
Don't mistake my comments for CAC or TPG bashing. One swallow does not a summer make......
From above: "They are worth a grade less."
A grade less than what? I hope the two of you don't mean just one point less than the coin would otherwise grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
NO
And there better not be.
Thanks for submitting that as a possibility. Can you (or anyone else) tell us what die polish would look like. Is it raised on or into the coins surface? What color would die polish have? Is that color present in the first image?
Please, please remember...Mr. Insider is not a "know-it-all." He has opinions just as everyone else here but he does have the coin.
I'll post what I see on the coin tomorrow. For now, I've asked a few questions about die polish.
This discussion may be informative for random abrasions.
I have seen very definate arrows as directions from possibility of a sign off in the production process.
Am I off base to question this as i've seen lots of arrows and followed them to the error.
I will go with:
Raised into, grey, and no.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Are the "lines" raised? That is to say, do they have a shadow in the light?
Die Polish Lines are raised, on the planar surfaces (or shallow die recesses) and tone in tandem with the rest of the coin. They tend to be more coarse and separated than cleaning marks. Because they are raised, they reflect light differently and are readily visible when the light approximates 90 degrees to the lines. (see images in the "die polish" thread. )
Nailed it! Die polish is the same basic color of the surrounding surface because it is on the die. Any degree of abrasion to a surface is a different color - in most cases "shiny" at first until it gets dull over time. Note the bright lines in the first image. Later I'll post about the degree of the abrasion.
"Later I'll post about the degree of the abrasion"..........?
This Monday. My images are stored elsewhere.
I love this coin. But it has been BB'd by PCGS three times.
There are some very faint, old hairlines in the right obverse...seen only under certain angles. Far less than other straight-graded bust halves I've seen (and some I own). But PCGS spots them and denies a clean grade.
If this is their standard then OP's coin deserves no better. Its hairlines (or whatever you want to call them) are far more severe.
Lance.
Sorry, ran out of time today.
MS60 or details. Blow it out get rid of it.
It's pretty. This is probably the type of coin that is often ATed and that ends up in a slab at some point unless it is held by honest collectors like you.
Lance, I am not sure if hairlines might be the issue. I have some very nice coins with great eye appeal that have hairlines and they graded a 62-63. I cannot tell form your photos, but wonder if the coin was dipped many years ago and the fields show "errosion" from the dipping? I have a very nice 1928 Peace $ that was given to me by my Uncle over 60 years ago that was graded "cleaned". Perhaps I cleaned it 60 years ago?, but the reverse is very nicely toned. Your 1821 is very nice and might be a great addition of your box of 20 that BB.
OINK
Thanks, @OldIndianNutKase. I am reasonably certain faint hairlines are the problem. This photo may not emphasize them enough but I truly believe they are the problem.
Not sure I understand "erosion from dipping".
This coin was judged ".92 MS details" and twice ".92 AU details".
Maybe I'll let it sit on the window sill for a couple of years.
Lance.
@lkeigwin said: "Not sure I understand "erosion from dipping"."
I'll start and others can add. Since I don't claim to be a chemist this is a basic answer to help. I am not talking down to anyone.
A chemical can react with a surface. "Dips" are liquid chemicals. If a reaction can take place, there are conditions that influence the degree that the surface is changed by the chemical. Some that come to mind are concentration of the dip, temperature, length of time exposed, and the composition of the surface. If I think about it I can possibly add others. SO...under the right conditions, a chemical dip can "etch" (destroy the originality) the surface of a coin. I believe that is what the poster considers "erosion from dipping."
Now there is another aspect of dipping to consider. When a dip is used to remove oxidized material, the fact that the surface is oxidized indicates it is not 100% original anymore. If the oxidation has reached a certain point (end-stage), the underlying surface is permanently ruined. It that case a chemical dip may completely remove the oxidation but the etched surface under it will be exposed. It is not quite the same thing but often the surfaces will look similar.
Now go put a copper cent in a jar of coke and you'll see "erosion from dipping."
Now to clarify my OP: How much do the hairlines on this coin affect it's grade?.
The first thing to consider is what exactly is a hairline? I think of them a an extremely fine line that is so light that it hardly penetrates the coin's surface even under high magnifications. Once the surface is barely broken, our "hairline" becomes a very fine SCRATCH! A hairline or sometimes a very fine scratch will not be obvious unless the coin is in a certain orientation to the light. For most folks, hairlines are best seen in a dark room using a 75W to 100W incandescent light. Note that in the image above there are very bright lines across the coin. This coin has a large amount of parallel hairlines. The reason they are not considered scratches in this case is they completely disappear in the other image I posted.
When many hairlines occur in a patch as on this Quarter, they are very detracting if they are detected. In this case, a coin with full, frosty-white luster with no trace of rub and a few small contact marks (mostly visible because the brilliance of the surface that would normally conceal them has been eliminated by florescent light) - at least a MS-65 will be dropped in grade to a 63 or 64 Max.
That's why you'll see Roosevelt and Mercury dimes and Washington quarters with virtually no marks and booming luster (the look MS-67) in MS-63 or 64 slabs. Faint hairlines across the face.
When incuse parallel lines are so close that they destroy the surface they are called "wipes" or "wheel marks." Check out the images below.
Sorry, but even if that quarter were otherwise perfect and you can only detect the hairlines by tilting and rotating it under a light, based on the images, I’d give it a details grade. Sorry, also, for the long sentence.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Another Sorry. The original coin has been wiped which is the same as cleaning. The last Liberty Seated coin has been cleaned also. It looks like someone tried to remove something just to the right of the star. Certainly not Hairlines or Slide Marks.
Ken
While I'll agree that coins as this should be described in some way, commercial grading is different.
I had to cock that coin up just so while holding it in order to get the image I wanted. I'll guarantee that a large number of collectors and dealers would see that coin in a 2X2, put a glass to it and buy it while licking their chops because they just pick up a coin and stare at it without moving it at all. Hundreds of them have been in my classes over the decades so I know what I'm posting is 100% true by actual experience. It is very humorous. I am constantly telling students all day long (even on the third day of a seminar): "Rotate the coin, you are just staring at it."
A lot of coins don't cross because of these marks. While this quarter looks like an extreme example, buyer beware.
Another sorry, to disagree with your opinion - both of them.
If i were a buyer or customer , I'd pass on it just for that fact.
I would not waste anyones time or money to go any deeper.
If I was pickey.
Too bad They can't just call it "Unc. details very faint hairlines Net 59" or whatever. Curious what you bought it "as"? (Meaning, grade equivalent)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
About half price guide, @Bailey. Maybe AU55.
I am okay with that. It's a lovely, lustrous coin that might have earned a nice price, straight-graded. A "win" would have been sweet. So it goes.
Lance.
What about this coin? Should this coin be "Details?" Hairline? Scratch?
Bad scratch, location couldn't be much worse.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Sounds about right 😀
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Agree. Details grade only. Heavy scratch in a prime focal area.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Hummm.
For the new picture, the scratch appears large but that's partially a function of the excellent resolution. I would say this could straight grade depending how much it catches the light under ordinary viewing. Matter of opinion I think (as all commerical grading is 😁)
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
Care to be more specific?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I think you've got it. I like this answer because it doesn't use too many chemistry trade words (as I sometimes fall into the trap of) but is accurate. My only quibble (and it's indeed a small point) is that the toning does not need to be end stage to start acid stripping the surface. Any time you get an oxygen or sulfur atom stuck between the silver atom and its friends, it's highly likely you'll get some loss of material. End stage material is much worse in this regard so the effect is more obvious. However, repeated dips of light toning will eventually start to show more etching. Your best defense against this, if you choose to dip, is to go low and slow. Low concentration of dip, no elevated temps.
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
Thanks for the clarification. The darker colors of oxidation (before full black) do effect the surface but usually, they too can be removed w/o a trace if near the coin's edge.
Nit picking my own post, dipping a coin properly will change the surface at some microscopic level and continual dips will add to the changes; however, in my demonstrations and personal experience (depending on the coin) many proper dips to the same coin will also go undetected even though the surface is being chemically altered.
Not yet. I wish to read a few more opinions.
I think the coin would grade nicely as an XF as circulated coins can have a scratch or two without being BB. Nothing in your pic suggests that this is a MS coin which are graded to a different standard.
OINK
Sorry not the greatest of pics but notice the lines on the face on this proof Washie
If you are posting about the raised concentric die polish, it is NOT the same thing as I posted.
THIS image IS NOT EITHER BUT IT IS A "CLUE" to what is on the breast of the San Diego 50c above.
You and I have a very different sense of humor! Rather than a LOL, on a post that gives members a clue about the mark on the 50c, I wish you would have corrected your original opinion above.
While the "SCRATCH-LIKE" marks on the gold coin have a name - "Adjustment Marks," the "scratch-like" marks on the half dollar I posted ALSO also have a name. It is NOT a bad scratch and is NOT Post Mint Damage (PMD).
BTW, while we wait for someone to guess correctly, what do you think? Should the gold coin above receive a "detail" grade?" What grade would the "Net Graders" assign to the 1798?