Let me start with my disclaimer.
Anything I post about "Where's George" are my own stupid thoughts, they will not be backed up by reference material.
As mentioned, I am just another idiot behind a keyboard with an active imagination.
Please feel free to disagree or add your own stupid thoughts.
If I remember correctly I think I remember reading it is illegal to track U.S. currency other than by the U.S. Government or law enforcement with a proper warrant. Think about this for just a minute and I think you can see why such a law would be in place. Would you want someone to be able to track your cash and know you have 100K under your mattress? If this is correct that would make the whole "Where's George" deal illegal. The fact that the site doesn't collect personal data could be one of the factors why it was not shut down. Next we have defacing/altering currency, while the stamp doesn't affect the bills ability to still be used in commerce it could encourage others to mark or track bills, in fact there is another site TrackDollar. At this point this is still a small problem for the Government and hard to track many people with a little rubber stamp. Even if they were able to catch someone stamping them would the fine compensate for the effort? If this problem continues to grow and they get billions of bills being stamped they might take a closer look at the situation. As of October 2018, the site says more than 284,000,000 bills, with a total face value of more than $1.50 billion, have been entered into the site database on Where's George.
The site does not encourage the defacement of US currency. In October 1999, when interviewed for The New York Times, Eskin commented on why the Secret Service has not bothered the webmaster over possible defacement of US currency: "They've got better things to do. They want to catch counterfeiters counterfeiting billions of dollars."
In April 2000, the site was investigated by the United States Secret Service, which informed Eskin that the selling of "Where's George?" rubber stamps on the web site is considered "advertising" on United States currency, which is illegal under 18 U.S.C. § 475. The site's administrators immediately ceased selling the rubber stamps; no further action against the site was taken. At least one spokesperson for the US Secret Service has pointed out in print that marking US bills, even if not defacement, can still be illegal if it falls under "advertisement". However, a Secret Service spokesman in Seattle, Washington, told The Seattle Times in 2004: "Quite frankly, we wouldn't spend too much looking into this."
For the sake of this discussion let's just say that I was the one who thought of this and built a website back in December of 1998. (the real creator is Hank Eskin)
So back in 1998 I get this fun idea to track one dollar bills to see how they travel across the country and build a website. My first couple of notes I use my own stamp & money to test the software, but it would not be much fun if I was the only one adding bills to it. I do a little advertising, tell a few friends and wait for the snowball effect. Everyone is having fun and lots of people are tracking their bills. I get another bright idea to sell a "Where's George" stamp to help offset the cost of maintaining the web site, and the stamps are selling too. Next I get a call from agent M with the Secret Service explaining how I am encouraging defacing Government property and I am advertising on U.S. currency. I explain to him how I am not advertising and I am not the one stamping the bills and that I can't control what the general population does. He says "you can quit selling the stamp or we will shut your site down" , I reluctantly agree. Agent M tells me I am "technically" breaking the law but the other people stamping the bills are the ones they would need to go after. This would take way too much time and effort and they would never find everyone with a rubber stamp & "Quite frankly, we wouldn't spend too much looking into this." Now 21 years later everyone is happy and others are creating bill tracking sites.
Many of our coin & currency laws are from many years ago and need to be updated. Much like trimming coins in the old days, now there is no precious metals to trim.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
Many of our coin & currency laws are from many years ago and need to be updated. Much like trimming coins in the old days, now there is no precious metals to trim.
Agreed.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
And what do our friends at the Treasury have to say about it, since we hope they are not perpetuating FRAUDULENT activities:
U.S. Mint Material Acceptance Criteria
The U.S. Mint accepts for redemption:
Bent or partial coins
Weighing no less than 1 pound (0.4536 kilograms)
Separated by denomination category: Penny, Nickel, Dime, Quarters, Halves, and Eisenhower Dollars; Susan B. Anthony Dollars, Sacagawea Golden Dollar, and Presidential $1 coins
The U.S. Mint will not accept for redemption:
Bent or partial coins that are not readily and clearly identifiable as to the genuineness and denomination of the coins
Bent and partial coins not presented separately by denomination category in lots of at least 1 pound for each denomination
Fused coins
Mixed coins, with the exception of bent or partial one-cent coins and $1 coins presented in mixed years
Unacceptable items, not classified as mutilated coins, that the U.S. Mint does not redeem are:
Foreign coins
Counterfeit coins
Slugs
Altered coins, changed to pass as another denomination
Precious coins (silver or gold)
Uncurrent coins
Content last updated on August 26, 2019
Therefore, it appears that we can smash away, bent, partials, etc. and the Treasury will gladly take them back at full value, as long as they can determine what they are, and are properly separated.
Note the comment on "Altered coins, changed to pass as another denomination" (IE the fraud thing again).
So, if they will take smooshed, stamped, X'd, painted, holed, drilled, shot, dead dog ugly, etc. coins, as longs as they are readily and clearly identifiable as to the genuineness and denomination of the coins, then how can it be fraudulent.
It is an unnecessary word in this law code description. Anything fraudulent with coins & currency is against the law.
It could simply state.
"Whoever alters any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States."
If you fraudulently alter it you have defaced it and you have also falsified both terms are already in the main body of the code.
If you alter a coin it doesn't matter what descriptive word you want to put in front of it the bottom line is you altered it.
I can be fraudulent selling a coin that has not been altered in any way, the coin doesn't need to be altered for for me to lie & deceive an unknowing buyer. (illegal)
I can alter a coin and do nothing fraudulent or deceptive in describing or selling it. (legal)
To determine if an act is fraudulent intent must be proven.
@Gluggo said:
Lots of Legal Advise floating around on this post. If I get in trouble with the law I will remember to come back here and ask On what to do next.
If I leave a coin in my pants and wash them, I 'altered' the coin.
I used to tell 'scientists' that checked river water to see if the temperature had been changed that 'the mere action of putting the thermometer into the water "changed" the temp. of the water"
@1630Boston said:
If I leave a coin in my pants and wash them, I 'altered' the coin.
I used to tell 'scientists' that checked river water to see if the temperature had been changed that 'the mere action of putting the thermometer into the water "changed" the temp. of the water"
by a small amount. :
Reminds me of Al Gore who was about to fail his science class when he decided to study a theory by a young professor and he picked the easiest category. Carbon dioxide. Of course his Parents didn’t want to disappoint the young lad and tell him they cheated to get him in college so they indulge. In 1991 his professor finally after seeing the hysteria and the fraudulent use of the Theory came out and said that The entire premise was wrong and the professor proved it a few years before he passed away. Of course the expert on the Climate theory was mostly ignored and the political now money scam opportunity took hold. https://judithcurry.com/2011/07/02/the-civil-heretic/amp/
BTW, if counterstamping modern coins is illegal, we'll have our own wing in the slammer. I can think of at least a half dozen people who actively do it!
I was not looking forward to going through the box of papers but I finally got it done. As it turned out it was kind of a fun trip down memory road. It was longer ago than I thought, it was back in 1999. I was not able to find any documentation from the attorney. The information may have been on my old computer. After 20 years some things are lost. In the last 20 years I'm sure some or many of the laws have changed again. Notes show we contacted the FBI, Secret Service & US Mint, one of them gave us the information or a web site. If you have a real need or desire to find current laws this would be the best place to start.
Bottom line..... If ya got 'em, stamp 'em!
You have a better chance of winning the lottery than getting in trouble for defacing coins or currency.
Comments
Okay, now for the "Where's George"
Let me start with my disclaimer.
Anything I post about "Where's George" are my own stupid thoughts, they will not be backed up by reference material.
As mentioned, I am just another idiot behind a keyboard with an active imagination.
Please feel free to disagree or add your own stupid thoughts.
If I remember correctly I think I remember reading it is illegal to track U.S. currency other than by the U.S. Government or law enforcement with a proper warrant. Think about this for just a minute and I think you can see why such a law would be in place. Would you want someone to be able to track your cash and know you have 100K under your mattress? If this is correct that would make the whole "Where's George" deal illegal. The fact that the site doesn't collect personal data could be one of the factors why it was not shut down. Next we have defacing/altering currency, while the stamp doesn't affect the bills ability to still be used in commerce it could encourage others to mark or track bills, in fact there is another site TrackDollar. At this point this is still a small problem for the Government and hard to track many people with a little rubber stamp. Even if they were able to catch someone stamping them would the fine compensate for the effort? If this problem continues to grow and they get billions of bills being stamped they might take a closer look at the situation. As of October 2018, the site says more than 284,000,000 bills, with a total face value of more than $1.50 billion, have been entered into the site database on Where's George.
The site does not encourage the defacement of US currency. In October 1999, when interviewed for The New York Times, Eskin commented on why the Secret Service has not bothered the webmaster over possible defacement of US currency: "They've got better things to do. They want to catch counterfeiters counterfeiting billions of dollars."
In April 2000, the site was investigated by the United States Secret Service, which informed Eskin that the selling of "Where's George?" rubber stamps on the web site is considered "advertising" on United States currency, which is illegal under 18 U.S.C. § 475. The site's administrators immediately ceased selling the rubber stamps; no further action against the site was taken. At least one spokesperson for the US Secret Service has pointed out in print that marking US bills, even if not defacement, can still be illegal if it falls under "advertisement". However, a Secret Service spokesman in Seattle, Washington, told The Seattle Times in 2004: "Quite frankly, we wouldn't spend too much looking into this."
For the sake of this discussion let's just say that I was the one who thought of this and built a website back in December of 1998. (the real creator is Hank Eskin)
So back in 1998 I get this fun idea to track one dollar bills to see how they travel across the country and build a website. My first couple of notes I use my own stamp & money to test the software, but it would not be much fun if I was the only one adding bills to it. I do a little advertising, tell a few friends and wait for the snowball effect. Everyone is having fun and lots of people are tracking their bills. I get another bright idea to sell a "Where's George" stamp to help offset the cost of maintaining the web site, and the stamps are selling too. Next I get a call from agent M with the Secret Service explaining how I am encouraging defacing Government property and I am advertising on U.S. currency. I explain to him how I am not advertising and I am not the one stamping the bills and that I can't control what the general population does. He says "you can quit selling the stamp or we will shut your site down" , I reluctantly agree. Agent M tells me I am "technically" breaking the law but the other people stamping the bills are the ones they would need to go after. This would take way too much time and effort and they would never find everyone with a rubber stamp & "Quite frankly, we wouldn't spend too much looking into this." Now 21 years later everyone is happy and others are creating bill tracking sites.
Damage? Are you sure it isn't an error?
What's the point of any of these laws, if they're not going to enforce them?
BE AWARE! I AM NOT ADVOCATING FOR ENFORCEMENT!! I am just asking the question.
Many of our coin & currency laws are from many years ago and need to be updated. Much like trimming coins in the old days, now there is no precious metals to trim.
Well just lock me up
Pretty good balancing act on these puppies
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Agreed.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
And what do our friends at the Treasury have to say about it, since we hope they are not perpetuating FRAUDULENT activities:
U.S. Mint Material Acceptance Criteria
The U.S. Mint accepts for redemption:
Bent or partial coins
Weighing no less than 1 pound (0.4536 kilograms)
Separated by denomination category: Penny, Nickel, Dime, Quarters, Halves, and Eisenhower Dollars; Susan B. Anthony Dollars, Sacagawea Golden Dollar, and Presidential $1 coins
The U.S. Mint will not accept for redemption:
Bent or partial coins that are not readily and clearly identifiable as to the genuineness and denomination of the coins
Bent and partial coins not presented separately by denomination category in lots of at least 1 pound for each denomination
Fused coins
Mixed coins, with the exception of bent or partial one-cent coins and $1 coins presented in mixed years
Unacceptable items, not classified as mutilated coins, that the U.S. Mint does not redeem are:
Foreign coins
Counterfeit coins
Slugs
Altered coins, changed to pass as another denomination
Precious coins (silver or gold)
Uncurrent coins
Content last updated on August 26, 2019
Therefore, it appears that we can smash away, bent, partials, etc. and the Treasury will gladly take them back at full value, as long as they can determine what they are, and are properly separated.
Note the comment on "Altered coins, changed to pass as another denomination" (IE the fraud thing again).
So, if they will take smooshed, stamped, X'd, painted, holed, drilled, shot, dead dog ugly, etc. coins, as longs as they are readily and clearly identifiable as to the genuineness and denomination of the coins, then how can it be fraudulent.
MDCXXX
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
Lots of Legal Advise floating around on this post. If I get in trouble with the law I will remember to come back here and ask On what to do next.
The word "fraudulent" is giving us trouble.
It is an unnecessary word in this law code description.
Anything fraudulent with coins & currency is against the law.
It could simply state.
"Whoever alters any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States."
If you fraudulently alter it you have defaced it and you have also falsified both terms are already in the main body of the code.
If you alter a coin it doesn't matter what descriptive word you want to put in front of it the bottom line is you altered it.
I can be fraudulent selling a coin that has not been altered in any way, the coin doesn't need to be altered for for me to lie & deceive an unknowing buyer. (illegal)
I can alter a coin and do nothing fraudulent or deceptive in describing or selling it. (legal)
To determine if an act is fraudulent intent must be proven.
Best of all it's free! Ya get what ya paid for.
al·ter
/ˈôltər/
verb
1.
change or cause to change in character or composition, typically in a comparatively small but significant way:
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
If I leave a coin in my pants and wash them, I 'altered' the coin.
I used to tell 'scientists' that checked river water to see if the temperature had been changed that 'the mere action of putting the thermometer into the water "changed" the temp. of the water"
by a small amount. :
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Reminds me of Al Gore who was about to fail his science class when he decided to study a theory by a young professor and he picked the easiest category. Carbon dioxide. Of course his Parents didn’t want to disappoint the young lad and tell him they cheated to get him in college so they indulge. In 1991 his professor finally after seeing the hysteria and the fraudulent use of the Theory came out and said that The entire premise was wrong and the professor proved it a few years before he passed away. Of course the expert on the Climate theory was mostly ignored and the political now money scam opportunity took hold.
https://judithcurry.com/2011/07/02/the-civil-heretic/amp/
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
BTW, if counterstamping modern coins is illegal, we'll have our own wing in the slammer. I can think of at least a half dozen people who actively do it!
I was not looking forward to going through the box of papers but I finally got it done. As it turned out it was kind of a fun trip down memory road. It was longer ago than I thought, it was back in 1999. I was not able to find any documentation from the attorney. The information may have been on my old computer. After 20 years some things are lost. In the last 20 years I'm sure some or many of the laws have changed again. Notes show we contacted the FBI, Secret Service & US Mint, one of them gave us the information or a web site. If you have a real need or desire to find current laws this would be the best place to start.
Bottom line..... If ya got 'em, stamp 'em!
You have a better chance of winning the lottery than getting in trouble for defacing coins or currency.